John Derbyshire, the talk: non-black version

[Ibrahim]

There is a need for people to say things which everybody thinks but no-one dares say. In an American context, most of what Derbyshire says is, lamentably, empirically justified, however ethically undesirable.

No, it isn't. I especially object to the baseless assertion made by "Derb" and repeated by you that "this is what everyone thinks but no-one dares say." Certainly there are some preposterous racists out there who share these idiotic views, but don't conscript "everyone" into that category.

It is an accident of history that the division is on racial lines, when it is in fact cultural/tribal.

An entirely meaningless distinction. Presumably people don't hate blacks because of the melanin in their skin, they hate blacks because of their conception of "how blacks behave." Race/culture/tribe is indistinguishable for this kind of prejudice. Racism is essentially about behavior. Or more specifically, it is about attributing behavior to an arbitrary group. That group can be ethnic, cultural, religious, sexual, tribal etc.

What I take issue with is all the IQ stuff, with the unstated implication that blacks are genetically inferior. This is easy to refute, and to show that IQ is largely culturally determined. Underclass groups in urban environments everywhere register low IQs, poor educational attainments/aspirations, and high crime rates:
- This applies to Koreans in Japan, while Koreans in their homeland and elsewhere are high achievers;
- Also in Japan, the bottom of the pile are Ainu tribesmen, who are ethnically white (Siberian) while American Red Indians are bottom-of-pile in the US and ethnically close to high achieving east Asians. Ironic.
- black kids in British schools now have improved to much the same educational attainment as working class whites, still pretty crap. Bengali Muslims are bottom of the pile, while Hindus near the top
- American black women score more highly in IQ/educational attainment than black men, a purely cultural artefact not seen in whites or Asians;
- the most highly educated sector of British society, on average, is African origin men. The middle class suburb I live in is becoming increasingly black, but largely Africans not Afro-Carribean, who still have middle class values, strong families and nobody minds (because property values have not been hit and street crime rates are low...). Nigerians abroad are a bit like the overseas Chinese and Indians of a generation ago, the homeland is still f*cked up but they do rather well.

Good example of the many reasons why pseudo-scientific racism is just that. Derbyshire clearly puts a lot of stock in these kinds of metrics to justify his prejudices.

It will only do so if blacks aspire to mainstream values and do the work necessary to do it.

What is this supposed to mean?

[Ibrahim]

Then when all of that ended, and everything didn't suddenly fix itself as if by magic in a single generation...

This isn't so much the problem many people have. A great deal of progress was being made in the black American community, culminating in the Civil Rights revolution. But somewhere around the time Marcus Garvey was calling W.E.B. du Bois an Uncle Tom and a "house nigger", things started to change. Rather than continuing the process of moving comfortably into modern society and mastering its forms, a new generation came along and rebelled against the whole project. You are saying that black integration has been one big failure since the Civil War, but that's not true. A lot of good work was done until it was reversed after the 1960s. The last 40 years have been a slide into depravity and a reversal of progress made. This is not due to genetics or slavery, but, primarily, the drug war and the black urban community's response to it (glorifying the values of the dealer, for example).

So in your version of history the Civil Rights movement is where the "problem" begins. The period in which blacks were forced through violence to assimilate as a segregated economic and political underclass prior to the 1960's was when the real "progress" was made.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Then when all of that ended, and everything didn't suddenly fix itself as if by magic in a single generation...

This isn't so much the problem many people have. A great deal of progress was being made in the black American community, culminating in the Civil Rights revolution. But somewhere around the time Marcus Garvey was calling W.E.B. du Bois an Uncle Tom and a "house nigger", things started to change. Rather than continuing the process of moving comfortably into modern society and mastering its forms, a new generation came along and rebelled against the whole project. You are saying that black integration has been one big failure since the Civil War, but that's not true. A lot of good work was done until it was reversed after the 1960s. The last 40 years have been a slide into depravity and a reversal of progress made. This is not due to genetics or slavery, but, primarily, the drug war and the black urban community's response to it (glorifying the values of the dealer, for example).

So in your version of history the Civil Rights movement is where the "problem" begins. The period in which blacks were forced through violence to assimilate as a segregated economic and political underclass prior to the 1960's was when the real "progress" was made.

Yes. Which part do you take issue with?

[Ibrahim]

Then when all of that ended, and everything didn't suddenly fix itself as if by magic in a single generation...

This isn't so much the problem many people have. A great deal of progress was being made in the black American community, culminating in the Civil Rights revolution. But somewhere around the time Marcus Garvey was calling W.E.B. du Bois an Uncle Tom and a "house nigger", things started to change. Rather than continuing the process of moving comfortably into modern society and mastering its forms, a new generation came along and rebelled against the whole project. You are saying that black integration has been one big failure since the Civil War, but that's not true. A lot of good work was done until it was reversed after the 1960s. The last 40 years have been a slide into depravity and a reversal of progress made. This is not due to genetics or slavery, but, primarily, the drug war and the black urban community's response to it (glorifying the values of the dealer, for example).

So in your version of history the Civil Rights movement is where the "problem" begins. The period in which blacks were forced through violence to assimilate as a segregated economic and political underclass prior to the 1960's was when the real "progress" was made.

Yes. Which part do you take issue with?

Your implicit support for Jim Crow, I guess. It's cartoonish, I'm not sure if you are serious.


I once met a man who thought that Apartheid was the best thing for South Africa, based on certain economic indicators. I'm not sure what to say to such people. They are inhuman.

[Typhoon]

Then when all of that ended, and everything didn't suddenly fix itself as if by magic in a single generation...

This isn't so much the problem many people have. A great deal of progress was being made in the black American community, culminating in the Civil Rights revolution. But somewhere around the time Marcus Garvey was calling W.E.B. du Bois an Uncle Tom and a "house nigger", things started to change. Rather than continuing the process of moving comfortably into modern society and mastering its forms, a new generation came along and rebelled against the whole project. You are saying that black integration has been one big failure since the Civil War, but that's not true. A lot of good work was done until it was reversed after the 1960s. The last 40 years have been a slide into depravity and a reversal of progress made. This is not due to genetics or slavery, but, primarily, the drug war and the black urban community's response to it (glorifying the values of the dealer, for example).

So in your version of history the Civil Rights movement is where the "problem" begins. The period in which blacks were forced through violence to assimilate as a segregated economic and political underclass prior to the 1960's was when the real "progress" was made.

I'm not JN, but that not what I think that he's arguing.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Then when all of that ended, and everything didn't suddenly fix itself as if by magic in a single generation...

This isn't so much the problem many people have. A great deal of progress was being made in the black American community, culminating in the Civil Rights revolution. But somewhere around the time Marcus Garvey was calling W.E.B. du Bois an Uncle Tom and a "house nigger", things started to change. Rather than continuing the process of moving comfortably into modern society and mastering its forms, a new generation came along and rebelled against the whole project. You are saying that black integration has been one big failure since the Civil War, but that's not true. A lot of good work was done until it was reversed after the 1960s. The last 40 years have been a slide into depravity and a reversal of progress made. This is not due to genetics or slavery, but, primarily, the drug war and the black urban community's response to it (glorifying the values of the dealer, for example).

So in your version of history the Civil Rights movement is where the "problem" begins. The period in which blacks were forced through violence to assimilate as a segregated economic and political underclass prior to the 1960's was when the real "progress" was made.

Yes. Which part do you take issue with?

Your implicit support for Jim Crow, I guess. It's cartoonish, I'm not sure if you are serious.


I once met a man who thought that Apartheid was the best thing for South Africa, based on certain economic indicators. I'm not sure what to say to such people. They are inhuman.

It seems like you think I'm saying that the total collapse of black urban communities had something to do with the Civil Rights movement.

[Ibrahim]

Then when all of that ended, and everything didn't suddenly fix itself as if by magic in a single generation...

This isn't so much the problem many people have. A great deal of progress was being made in the black American community, culminating in the Civil Rights revolution. But somewhere around the time Marcus Garvey was calling W.E.B. du Bois an Uncle Tom and a "house nigger", things started to change. Rather than continuing the process of moving comfortably into modern society and mastering its forms, a new generation came along and rebelled against the whole project. You are saying that black integration has been one big failure since the Civil War, but that's not true. A lot of good work was done until it was reversed after the 1960s. The last 40 years have been a slide into depravity and a reversal of progress made. This is not due to genetics or slavery, but, primarily, the drug war and the black urban community's response to it (glorifying the values of the dealer, for example).

So in your version of history the Civil Rights movement is where the "problem" begins. The period in which blacks were forced through violence to assimilate as a segregated economic and political underclass prior to the 1960's was when the real "progress" was made.

Yes. Which part do you take issue with?

Your implicit support for Jim Crow, I guess. It's cartoonish, I'm not sure if you are serious.


I once met a man who thought that Apartheid was the best thing for South Africa, based on certain economic indicators. I'm not sure what to say to such people. They are inhuman.

It seems like you think I'm saying that the total collapse of black urban communities had something to do with the Civil Rights movement.

What I'm taking away from your statement is that for you the priority is economic integration rather than legal and social equality.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Yes. Which part do you take issue with?

Your implicit support for Jim Crow, I guess. It's cartoonish, I'm not sure if you are serious.


I once met a man who thought that Apartheid was the best thing for South Africa, based on certain economic indicators. I'm not sure what to say to such people. They are inhuman.[/quote]

It seems like you think I'm saying that the total collapse of black urban communities had something to do with the Civil Rights movement.[/quote]


What I'm taking away from your statement is that for you the priority is economic integration rather than legal and social equality.[/quote]

For better or for worse, the two are not separable in a capitalist society.

[Ibrahim]

For better or for worse, the two are not separable in a capitalist society.

Under this model serfdom is simply unregulated capitalism. There becomes no reason to, and in fact many reasons not to, pursue any kind of egalitarianism.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

For better or for worse, the two are not separable in a capitalist society.

Under this model serfdom is simply unregulated capitalism. There becomes no reason to, and in fact many reasons not to, pursue any kind of egalitarianism.

You are just kind of spinning off into topics that have nothing to do with what you originally had a problem with. The point was that black Americans made great progress from the 1860s to the 1960s, but that their communities have deteriorated since then. You said you had a problem with that, and then started talking random nonsense about egalitarianism and serfdom.

[Ibrahim]

For better or for worse, the two are not separable in a capitalist society.

Under this model serfdom is simply unregulated capitalism. There becomes no reason to, and in fact many reasons not to, pursue any kind of egalitarianism.

You are just kind of spinning off into topics that have nothing to do with what you originally had a problem with.

No, they follow directly from your statements.

The point was that black Americans made great progress from the 1860s to the 1960s, but that their communities have deteriorated since then.

This ending point for black progress is specifically the point at which they attain full legal equality with the rest of the American population. Crucially, you stated that economic integration was inextricably linked to social and legal equality under capitalism.

You said you had a problem with that, and then started talking random nonsense about egalitarianism and serfdom.

I'm sorry if you are having trouble understanding things.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

This ending point for black progress is specifically the point at which they attain full legal equality with the rest of the American population. Crucially, you stated that economic integration was inextricably linked to social and legal equality under capitalism.

Do you disagree? Or do you want to just sit in the common room with the rest of the sophomores and have a conversation about how this proves that capitalism needs to be scrapped?

I said specifically that the war on drugs was the factor most responsible for the reversal of progress in black communities. I am not interested in discussing whether we should, "like totally scrap capitalism, bro"... I am interested in how we can deal with immediate problems right now. I am not interested in engaging in the left's favorite past time of getting into pseudo-Freudian social analyses where we look into the past to identify the roots of our civil neuroses, either. I don't care if our current malaise is all our dad's fault. That is True, But Useless information (unless your primary source of self-esteem comes from identifying various victim groups, showing them how they are victims, and then championing them against their oppressors, as it is for most people on the left). I am interested in how problems might be solved. What you see as me blaming the victim is merely my recognition of the plain fact that no change is possible until a victim makes the decision to stop being a victim and takes responsibility for their own future. The left has a vested interest in keeping victims as victims, because victims are constituents (and, for people like Al Sharpton, sources of income).

[Simple Minded]

I said specifically that the war on drugs was the factor most responsible for the reversal of progress in black communities. I am not interested in discussing whether we should, "like totally scrap capitalism, bro"... I am interested in how we can deal with immediate problems right now. I am not interested in engaging in the left's favorite past time of getting into pseudo-Freudian social analyses where we look into the past to identify the roots of our civil neuroses, either. I don't care if our current malaise is all our dad's fault. That is True, But Useless information (unless your primary source of self-esteem comes from identifying various victim groups, showing them how they are victims, and then championing them against their oppressors, as it is for most people on the left). I am interested in how problems might be solved. What you see as me blaming the victim is merely my recognition of the plain fact that no change is possible until a victim makes the decision to stop being a victim and takes responsibility for their own future. The left has a vested interest in keeping victims as victims, because victims are constituents (and, for people like Al Sharpton, sources of income).

Juggernaut Nihilism,

Very well put. You are of course talking about individual humans. It has nothing to do with tribe, or DNA, but there are cultural influences. As you pointed out, there are those who make a ton of money from keeping others in a state of perenial victimhood.

Parents are mush, must, much to blame, but at some point, age 12, 16, 18? it is time to grow up and take responsibility for the quality of your life. Ture there are outside forces that conspire to subjugate, more often then not, one's peers. "Show me your friends, I'll show you your future."

I'm sure you have heard the old saw: "Some would rather be right than happy." True enough, and many would rather wallow in self-loathing, as long as they have plenty of company, than achieve personal happiness, if the price is personal responsibility. Easier to blame society, Illuminati, the 1%, historical events that happened decades before one's birth, etc.

"Misery loves company."

"Ask anything of men. Ask them to achieve wealth, fame, love, brutality, murder, or self-sacrifice. But don't ask them to achieve self-respect. They will hate your soul." - Ayn Rand

[Ibrahim]

This ending point for black progress is specifically the point at which they attain full legal equality with the rest of the American population. Crucially, you stated that economic integration was inextricably linked to social and legal equality under capitalism.

Do you disagree? Or do you want to just sit in the common room with the rest of the sophomores and have a conversation about how this proves that capitalism needs to be scrapped?

I said specifically that the war on drugs was the factor most responsible for the reversal of progress in black communities. I am not interested in discussing whether we should, "like totally scrap capitalism, bro"...

You brought up capitalism, not me.

I am interested in how we can deal with immediate problems right now.

What solutions have you proposed?

I am not interested in engaging in the left's favorite past time of getting into pseudo-Freudian social analyses where we look into the past to identify the roots of our civil neuroses, either.

Why are we now discussing psychology? And who has attempted to type of analysis you describe?

What you see as me blaming the victim is merely my recognition of the plain fact that no change is possible until a victim makes the decision to stop being a victim and takes responsibility for their own future.

I didn't say you were blaming the victim or that there was a victim, I said you seemed to value economic integration over egalitarianism.

The left has a vested interest in keeping victims as victims, because victims are constituents (and, for people like Al Sharpton, sources of income).

That's the big payoff? I've only heard this retarded talk-radio trusim for about 20 years now.

[Nastarana]

Nastrana,

Are you George Elliot by any chance?

Yes. I retired the GE identity when I left the Spengler forum.

'Nastarana' is the identity I use on garden fora. It is a. the name of a lovely hybrid moschata rose, and b. as I recently learned, a generic name for roses in Persia.

I was invited to this forum by Ubi Hex, and I did make him or her aware of the change of online identity,

[Nastarana]

Wow, I should get into the racist rant business. It pays!

Only if you have that all important Oxbridge license. Or, failing that, some sort of internationalist credentials. NR et al already have their working class ranters, those positions are taken. Now they are looking for class.

[monster_gardener]

Nastrana,

Are you George Elliot by any chance?

Yes. I retired the GE identity when I left the Spengler forum.

'Nastarana' is the identity I use on garden fora. It is a. the name of a lovely hybrid moschata rose, and b. as I recently learned, a generic name for roses in Persia.

I was invited to this forum by Ubi Hex, and I did make him or her aware of the change of online identity,

Thank you Very Much for your post, Nastrana/George Eliot.

Welcome aboard! Glad you are here. Hope you enjoy.

Thanks for the update on California........

Looked up the Nastarana Rose..

What are you gardening besides roses?

New for me this year are blueberries.....

Your Friend,
Monster_Gardener

[Nastarana]

Thank you. You have mail.

[Ibrahim]

http://gawker.com/racists/#13370143082556&

John Derbyshire Comes Out of the ‘White Supremacist’ Closet

Avowed racist and aspiring butler John Derbyshire is back from literary exile. Fired from The National Review for failing to adequately veil his racism, the Derb has now taken up residence at VDARE, a hate group.

In a column entitled "Who Are We?" the action-packed renaissance man of hate says he is OK with white supremacy:

Leaving aside the intended malice, I actually think "White Supremacist" is not bad semantically. White supremacy, in the sense of a society in which key decisions are made by white Europeans, is one of the better arrangements History has come up with. There have of course been some blots on the record, but I don't see how it can be denied that net-net, white Europeans have made a better job of running fair and stable societies than has any other group.

Non-white supremacy is after all the rule over much of the world, from entire continental spaces like sub-Saharan Africa to individual black-run or mestizo-run municipalities in the U.S.A. I see no great floods into these places by refugees desperate to escape the horrors of white supremacy.

Ultimately, though, Derb settles on a more P.C. moniker for like-minded individuals: "Dissident Right." He says "race realist" or just "conservative" will do in a pinch, too.

[YMix]

John Derbyshire is European?

[Ibrahim]

John Derbyshire is European?

In the original piece, he identified himself as ethnically Northern European, and his wife and children as Northern East-Asian, so that leaves him room to hate Greeks and Thais.