West has betrayed the ideals of Christianity

[Enki]

Ah, Tinker, since you're making it personal (again), you haven't a clue as to my meaning (again) . . when will you stop trying and just ask? . . .

No, you're taking it personally.

If you are unable to articulate what you actually mean in your posts, how is that my fault?

Actually, what I'm saying, and I'm not the first, is this: "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you."

Yes, we are restless until we die. Not much to see there.

You say "I make up my own meaning"? I say, "No, you don't."

Someone somewhere made up the meaning you are drawing from.

[Marcus]

Ah, Tinker, since you're making it personal (again), you haven't a clue as to my meaning (again) . . when will you stop trying and just ask? . . .

No, you're taking it personally.

Someone somewhere made up the meaning you are drawing from.

Weasel-words. You made it personal by naming me . . man-up, Jr.

No doubt, and someone, somewhere made up the whole world in which you live and from which you too draw meaning.

[Marcus]

. . society needs beacon of morality and ethics

notion laws can do the job misleading

as laws are derived from moral and ethics

western laws are in reality Christians laws

West is a Christian civilization, though a misunderstood and taken advantage of one

Bingo! . . but you're gonna catch hell for saying so . . .




Wait for it . . .

[Taboo]

.

It's no accident that the most materially advanced regions of the world are the most secular.

.

probably true

but

also true

material advancement best under fascism

Is that so?

Adolf a good sample

By material advancement, I mean getting wealthier, living longer, having more choices. "Adolf"'s actions resulted in his country reduced to a bombed ruin, the death of 13 million of his prized ubermensch, and the loss of territory and sovereignty for many decades. Have a hard time seeing the progress.

If you're talking about 1934-36, it's easy to have double digit growth after a recession means 40% of your factories shut down. Simply turn the lights back on, and voila, precipitous growth.

Look, Taboo

Secularism was only necessary because of exaggeration, corruption and and and of religious authorities

Except for "only" and for the past tense use of "was", I agree. Among many other reasons, secularism is necessary because of the inevitable dogmatism and corruption of religious authorities. Try to read Florida's great work on the Rise of the Creative class. Creativity needs diversity of minds. Diversity of minds needs toleration of other, including religious. Creative people tend to be quirky, and they don't like being stoned to death or burned at the stake, for some reason.

society needs beacon of morality and ethics

To be imposed from on high. Yes, we've heard that one before.

notion laws can do the job misleading
as laws are derived from moral and ethics
western laws are in reality Christians laws
West is a Christian civilization, though a misunderstood and taken advantage of one

Built on Christian foundations, sure. I wouldn't say it's a Christian civilization. I don't think Christianity has been the dominant current for centuries now.

[Enki]

Weasel-words. You made it personal by naming me . . man-up, Jr.

I'm sorry that mentioning your name incenses you so.

No doubt, and someone, somewhere made up the whole world in which you live and from which you too draw meaning.

No, we're not talking about making up the world. We're talking about making up the words and symbolic framework you use to interpret the world. You insist that the way yours is constructed is the ONLY way one may be constructed and you reject anything that doesn't resemble it.

[Ibrahim]

Well..... to nuance the situation, David recognises that individuals can create their own meanings in life. Just that the stale date might prove to be a problem........

Which is why atheists should not be afraid to say they are post-Christians. We received our traditions from Christianity, and modified them to adapt this weak framework to the harsh demands of modern postindustrial society. It's no accident that the most materially advanced regions of the world are the most secular.

This man is too strong, I will not fight him.......'>.......

The strange obsession North American Christians have with asserting that atheists and other non-Christians are actually still some kind of Christian smacks of desperation.

[AzariLoveIran]

.

.

.

It's no accident that the most materially advanced regions of the world are the most secular.

.

probably true

but

also true

material advancement best under fascism

.

Is that so ?

.

If you say "material" (advancement)

yes, history says so

and there is a reason for that

human advancement, generally an impediment to pure "material" advancement

as human advancement, in most cases, IS counter to (pure play) material advancement

.

.
Adolf a good sample
.

By material advancement, I mean getting wealthier, living longer, having more choices. "Adolf"'s actions resulted in his country reduced to a bombed ruin, the death of 13 million of his prized ubermensch, and the loss of territory and sovereignty for many decades. Have a hard time seeing the progress.

.

a good case study for pure "material" advancement slippery slope

material advancement, what you define as .. "getting wealthier, living longer, having more choices" .. is, pretty much always cause of wars .. it was cause of WW1&2

Germans wanted to "get wealthier, live longer, have more choices" .. but Brits had cornered world natural resources .. Brits were stealing Iranian Oil (free) but getting market price from Germans

Sure, everybody wants to "get wealthier, live longer, have more choices"

but

it leads very easy to enslaving others, usurping other's rights and and

and for that not to happen

you need ethics, morality, humanity and and

Adolf and Churchill and all others of that time, same sort of tugs

that is why, Taboo, humanity needs beacon of ethics and morality

.
If you're talking about 1934-36, it's easy to have double digit growth after a recession means 40% of your factories shut down. Simply turn the lights back on, and voila, precipitous growth.
.

want to see how you can turn Germany, within a few years, with zero cents in coffers, flat broke, communist infested, with 6 million unemployed, into a powerhouse challenging the whole world

Only Germans & fascism could do it .. nobody else

.

.

Look, Taboo

Secularism was only necessary because of exaggeration, corruption and and and of religious authorities

.

Except for "only" and for the past tense use of "was", I agree. Among many other reasons, secularism is necessary because of the inevitable dogmatism and corruption of religious authorities. Try to read Florida's great work on the Rise of the Creative class. Creativity needs diversity of minds. Diversity of minds needs toleration of other, including religious. Creative people tend to be quirky, and they don't like being stoned to death or burned at the stake, for some reason.

.

Creativity needs Phantasy (Einstein)

and

notion creativity and (western idea of) secularism have any relation is naive

no relation whatsoever .. could even argue in contrary

.

.

society needs beacon of morality and ethics

.

To be imposed from on high. Yes, we've heard that one before.

.

why imposed ? ?

must be in blood and bone

things must be voluntary .. no need of policeman watching over one's head

that is the difference between high and primitive civilization

not how big your guns or how high your GDP, but how high your ethics and morals defines level of civilization.

.

.

notion laws can do the job misleading
as laws are derived from moral and ethics
western laws are in reality Christians laws
West is a Christian civilization, though a misunderstood and taken advantage of one

.

Built on Christian foundations, sure. I wouldn't say it's a Christian civilization. I don't think Christianity has been the dominant current for centuries now.

.

agree

"true" Christianity has NOT been the dominant current for centuries now.

and

that is why Europe falling from one human disaster to next one

where were the moral authorities when colonialism were happening in South and north America, in Australia and and

entire population were wiped out .. continents were depopulated

Churchill same as Hitler mindset .. not much difference

and now ? ?

not much better if not worst

ship just drifting

and

Ratzinger having a Ferrari day in Vatican

ferrari-vatikan4.jpg (40.03 KiB) Viewed 350 times

.

[monster_gardener]

Well..... to nuance the situation, David recognises that individuals can create their own meanings in life. Just that the stale date might prove to be a problem........

Which is why atheists should not be afraid to say they are post-Christians. We received our traditions from Christianity, and modified them to adapt this weak framework to the harsh demands of modern postindustrial society. It's no accident that the most materially advanced regions of the world are the most secular.

This man is too strong, I will not fight him.......'>.......

The strange obsession North American Christians have with asserting that atheists and other non-Christians are actually still some kind of Christian smacks of desperation.

Thanks for the Post, Ibrahim.

It's really NOT strange at all since some atheists make the same point.

If I understand him/her properly Taboo* is doing that right here and so did the famous atheist Bertrand Russell.

I remember reading a book** by Russell in which he claimed he was a "Protestant" Atheist!
Russell claimed to be in tradition of Protestants who diverged by eliminating various church doctrine such as indulgences, saints, etc. until they finally eliminated the doctrine of G_d.

Russell also wrote about anti-freedom "Catholic/Orthodox" atheists


*My apologies in advance if I am wrong.

**Ironically the book may have been titled: "Why I am not a Christian".........

[AzariLoveIran]

.

.


The strange obsession North American Christians have with asserting that atheists and other non-Christians are actually still some kind of Christian smacks of desperation.

.

Thanks for the Post, Ibrahim.

It's really NOT strange at all since some atheists make the same point.

If I understand him/her properly Taboo* is doing that right here and so did the famous atheist Bertrand Russell.

I remember reading a book** by Russell in which he claimed he was a "Protestant" Atheist!
Russell claimed to be in tradition of Protestants who diverged by eliminating various church doctrine such as indulgences, saints, etc. until they finally eliminated the doctrine of G_d.

Russell also wrote about anti-freedom "Catholic/Orthodox" atheists

.

It's interesting to know what is an ATHEIST

does, not believing in existence of G_D and saints etc etc .. but .. accepting (believing) ALL other stuff in (say) Christianity, makes one an Atheist ? ?

One could argue, overwhelming majority, maybe 90%, of religious people (the believers), believe and follow the teaching of but not so sure of existence of Saints and G_D .. are they ATHEIST ?

A religion, say Christianity, is a "culture" and not a STORY

a Muslim Atheist not same as a Christian Atheist and not same as Jewish Atheist or Buddhist Atheist

believing or not believing in existence of G_D does not make an (Muslim) Arab think like a (Christian) British Atheist

in that sense

it makes perfectly sense Bertrand Russell calling himself a Protestant Atheist


.

[monster_gardener]

.

.


The strange obsession North American Christians have with asserting that atheists and other non-Christians are actually still some kind of Christian smacks of desperation.

.

Thanks for the Post, Ibrahim.

It's really NOT strange at all since some atheists make the same point.

If I understand him/her properly Taboo* is doing that right here and so did the famous atheist Bertrand Russell.

I remember reading a book** by Russell in which he claimed he was a "Protestant" Atheist!
Russell claimed to be in tradition of Protestants who diverged by eliminating various church doctrine such as indulgences, saints, etc. until they finally eliminated the doctrine of G_d.

Russell also wrote about anti-freedom "Catholic/Orthodox" atheists

.

It's interesting to know what is an ATHEIST

does, not believing in existence of G_D and saints etc etc .. but .. accepting (believing) ALL other stuff in (say) Christianity, makes one an Atheist ? ?

One could argue, overwhelming majority, maybe 90%, of religious people (the believers), believe and follow the teaching of but not so sure of existence of Saints and G_D .. are they ATHEIST ?

A religion, say Christianity, is a "culture" and not a STORY

a Muslim Atheist not same as a Christian Atheist and not same as Jewish Atheist or Buddhist Atheist

believing or not believing in existence of G_D does not make an (Muslim) Arab think like a (Christian) British Atheist

in that sense

it makes perfectly sense Bertrand Russell calling himself a Protestant Atheist


.

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Azari.

Quite correct IMVHO.

Atheists can disagree on all sorts of matters........

Russell also says so. He contended that "Protestant Atheists" like himself were freedom loving while Catholic/Orthodox Athiests tended to retain/reconstruct the structure of rules/authoority etc. of the Church and be dictatorial. IIRC Russell cited Stalin as a 'Catholic/Orthodox' atheist.

Buddhism is interesting........

For example Theravada Buddhists believe/can believe in gods BUT consider them unimportant to salvation/enlightenment: the gods themselves being subject to the Law/Dharma and in need of enlightenment to escape from the cycle of birth, suffering, karma, death and rebirth....