Is Internet Access a Human Right ?

[noddy]

What is "A Right" anyway? Something a group of people allow themselves to do; usually expressed as a prohibition on an authority's actions.

I don't see where "Internet Access" and it's implied infrastructure falls under that rubric unless enough people agree and write it all down on a fancy piece of paper and then kill some people over it.

thats an old definition based on what they couldnt stop you doing, the modern one seems to be more of a wishlist of things you get from the system.

[feck]

'Pay for it anyway...

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

yeah...... freedom isn't free. It costs money.......

There is a confusion between freedom and human rights, the two aren't exactly coequal. Basic contractual agreements and conventions because one is a human being and lives in a society that claims to be moral and under the rule of law is confuted with all aspects of human flourishing, no matter how individual, idiosyncratic or arbitrary. Meeting these entitlements require extensive allotments of resources and labours to the point of appropriating other persons to serve them. Entitlements have to be limited so that people are not slaves to each other, and limited so that distribution of entitlements between all people are equal. That, is justice......

[feck]

yeah...... freedom isn't free. It costs money.......

There is a confusion between freedom and human rights, the two aren't exactly coequal. Basic contractual agreements and conventions because one is a human being and lives in a society that claims to be moral and under the rule of law is confuted with all aspects of human flourishing, no matter how individual, idiosyncratic or arbitrary. Meeting these entitlements require extensive allotments of resources and labours to the point of appropriating other persons to serve them. Entitlements have to be limited so that people are not slaves to each other, and limited so that distribution of entitlements between all people are equal. That, is justice......

Wordplays on "Free" aside, I'm still a little foggy on exactly what it would entail to make Internet access a "Human Right".

?

[feck]

Should country A sanction another country because it denies Internet access to prisoners who are citizens of country A?

[Ibrahim]

I think trying to argue for the Internet as a human right is something so absurd that I can only assume that it originally sprung from the mind of somebody who wants to trivialize the whole idea of human rights. Kind of like how somebody will respond to a question about gay marriage with "what's next, can a horse marry a toaster?" trying to make the leap from basic human rights to guaranteed Internet access seems like an attempt to muddy a serious issue by introducing absurdity.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Wordplays on "Free" aside, I'm still a little foggy on exactly what it would entail to make Internet access a "Human Right".

?

I think I am arguing why it shouldn't. If you could designate your little online community a sort of Athens deserving to be supported on the backs of assorted worker-drones, then yes; I suppose you can argue that access to internets is a sovereign right. The problem with the classical Greeks is that a few people had all the rights and they sat top-of-the pyramid on lesser endowed persons with various degrees of considerable fewer rights. Modern republics seemed to have taken human rights as a sorta zero-sum deal with some elasticity. Give everybody an equal pile of human rights and try to keep peace and prosperity within the national 'family'. When you promise more than you can deliver, some will end up with more and others less. Combine with long-held cultural and moral values and you may have an explosive situation......

[Ibrahim]

There seems to be some confusion between "human rights" and other rights that nations grant to their citizens.

[Enki]

I think trying to argue for the Internet as a human right is something so absurd that I can only assume that it originally sprung from the mind of somebody who wants to trivialize the whole idea of human rights. Kind of like how somebody will respond to a question about gay marriage with "what's next, can a horse marry a toaster?" trying to make the leap from basic human rights to guaranteed Internet access seems like an attempt to muddy a serious issue by introducing absurdity.

Not having it would make someone tantamount to a slave, and within 50 years it will mean that they are not capable of buying and selling anything at all.

[Ibrahim]

I think trying to argue for the Internet as a human right is something so absurd that I can only assume that it originally sprung from the mind of somebody who wants to trivialize the whole idea of human rights. Kind of like how somebody will respond to a question about gay marriage with "what's next, can a horse marry a toaster?" trying to make the leap from basic human rights to guaranteed Internet access seems like an attempt to muddy a serious issue by introducing absurdity.

Not having it would make someone tantamount to a slave, and within 50 years it will mean that they are not capable of buying and selling anything at all.

Really? I know an older man who doesn't have any Internet or TV, and only grudgingly tolerates a phone with the ringer muted. Trust me, he doesn't live like a "slave."

I also dispute the claim that in 50 years there will be no commerce other than online commerce.

[Demon of Undoing]

No, but thats what they'll try to make it. Efficient taxation/ information flow. Makes things safe and fair. Get used to those two words. In hoc signo vinces.


There's yer mark of the beast.

[Enki]

Really? I know an older man who doesn't have any Internet or TV, and only grudgingly tolerates a phone with the ringer muted. Trust me, he doesn't live like a "slave."

Look, this isn't even a rebuttal worthy of my time. Please do better. What services accomodate a dying generation will not continue to persist in thirty years.

I also dispute the claim that in 50 years there will be no commerce other than online commerce.

I have already been turned away with cash by people.

Demon is wrong. It's not going to be a matter of government intervention against paper currency. It'll simply be a cultural shift to a point where people will mostly stop carrying cash. Already exists to some degree in the big urban centers.

[Demon of Undoing]

You don't think the idea of efficient taxation and better information isn't driven by the people? The proles won't be happy until everything is apparently free and they are simply charged a " life" bill at the end of the month. Then, they won't be happy until they are simply taken care of.


Nope. I like my economy and society uncertain, sloppy and hard to manipulate. Anything else invites tyranny. You just can't trust these humans. God did us a favor at Babel.

[Ibrahim]

Really? I know an older man who doesn't have any Internet or TV, and only grudgingly tolerates a phone with the ringer muted. Trust me, he doesn't live like a "slave."

Look, this isn't even a rebuttal worthy of my time. Please do better. What services accomodate a dying generation will not continue to persist in thirty years.

It's not a rebuttal because you didn't really make an argument, just a claim absent any evidence whatsoever. Technically my anecdote contains more evidence than your initial assertion. I'm not sure how seriously to take you anymore. Everything is dystopian science fiction lately.

I also dispute the claim that in 50 years there will be no commerce other than online commerce.

I have already been turned away with cash by people.

Name a store that won't take cash.

I've been in plenty of big urban centers all over the world. People love cash.

[Enki]

You don't think the idea of efficient taxation and better information isn't driven by the people? The proles won't be happy until everything is apparently free and they are simply charged a " life" bill at the end of the month. Then, they won't be happy until they are simply taken care of.

This is unfortunately just your version of political messaging. Whatever you say. I am just saying that people will choose to make the switch away from Cash and Cash will no longer be King.

Nope. I like my economy and society uncertain, sloppy and hard to manipulate. Anything else invites tyranny. You just can't trust these humans. God did us a favor at Babel.

Sure. And maybe he'll do us the favor again.

[Enki]

It's not a rebuttal because you didn't really make an argument, just a claim absent any evidence whatsoever. Technically my anecdote contains more evidence than your initial assertion. I'm not sure how seriously to take you anymore. Everything is dystopian science fiction lately.

Evidence about the future?

I don't care how seriously you take me. I am usually right about these things. The world we are living in IS dystopian Science Fiction.

Name a store that won't take cash.

There are plenty that don't because they don't want to hold cash and have to worry about being robbed. Not so much in retail, but other businesses.

I've been in plenty of big urban centers all over the world. People love cash.

For now.

[Ibrahim]

It's not a rebuttal because you didn't really make an argument, just a claim absent any evidence whatsoever. Technically my anecdote contains more evidence than your initial assertion. I'm not sure how seriously to take you anymore. Everything is dystopian science fiction lately.

Evidence about the future?

Yes.

I don't care how seriously you take me. I am usually right about these things.

Ah, the old "I must be right because I'm so often right" argument. Aside from being a fallacy in and of itself, are you sure you're right that often?

Name a store that won't take cash.

There are plenty that don't because they don't want to hold cash and have to worry about being robbed. Not so much in retail, but other businesses.

Still waiting for some examples here. Remember, the standard you set is that people won't be able to buy and sell things without the Internet, and now aside from not giving any specific examples you've already exempted the entire retail sector.

I've been in plenty of big urban centers all over the world. People love cash.

For now.

For the foreseeable future.

[Demon of Undoing]

This is unfortunately just your version of political messaging. Whatever you say. I am just saying that people will choose to make the switch away from Cash and Cash will no longer be King.

Right. For convenience. For ease. IOW, so they can traipse through life with less effort while refusing the long view, simultaneously giving someone else greater power. You know, like being taken care of.

[Enki]

This is unfortunately just your version of political messaging. Whatever you say. I am just saying that people will choose to make the switch away from Cash and Cash will no longer be King.

Right. For convenience. For ease. IOW, so they can traipse through life with less effort while refusing the long view, simultaneously giving someone else greater power. You know, like being taken care of.

Yeah. I already use my cards for many purchases. That's pretty common here.

[Demon of Undoing]

Lol, man; people don't make a deal with the devil out of nowhere. Scratch got all the bennies. He may not ever come to collect. But eventually, you start cheering for him, even though you know it's wrong, just because you find yourself on the same side.

I had one experience with credit back in 1993. Never again. And about an hour ago I thought about just dropping off the Internet. This phone, which was a bridge away from the PC, has been a weaning element, and we are shutting them down in Feb. I had no intention of signing on to this forum, but it was pointed out that such valuable friendships as I have made ought to be kept. That was a point of light. It was also suggested as a place to vent. It's not working. I have progressively less nice things to say, and I'm tired of letting bitter waters flow. I'm damned near poisoned as it is.

I don't want it to be a right. I'm expecting eventually it will be a mandate.

[noddy]

Lol, man; people don't make a deal with the devil out of nowhere. Scratch got all the bennies. He may not ever come to collect. But eventually, you start cheering for him, even though you know it's wrong, just because you find yourself on the same side.

I had one experience with credit back in 1993. Never again. And about an hour ago I thought about just dropping off the Internet. This phone, which was a bridge away from the PC, has been a weaning element, and we are shutting them down in Feb. I had no intention of signing on to this forum, but it was pointed out that such valuable friendships as I have made ought to be kept. That was a point of light. It was also suggested as a place to vent. It's not working. I have progressively less nice things to say, and I'm tired of letting bitter waters flow. I'm damned near poisoned as it is.

I don't want it to be a right. I'm expecting eventually it will be a mandate.

uhuh, very near my thoughts.

comparing my wild untamed linux box using all sorts of proxies with my droid phone stamping my imei on everything via a government backboned telco is a depressing thang.. fight open id ? buahahah its becoming irrelevant.

how many ssh apps and bittorrent apps are in apples walled garden ?

and back to the topic....

cash is slowly being phased out but i dare say the timeframe will be outside my lifetime.. baby boomers and their lack of techno literacy are a blessing in that regard. i wouldnt be that confident we still had cash when gen y are pensioners.

[Ibrahim]

What are you guys worried about? The gubbermint seeing what websites you visit? I pity the NSA factotum grinding his teeth in boredom while reading my emails.

[noddy]

What are you guys worried about? The gubbermint seeing what websites you visit? I pity the NSA factotum grinding his teeth in boredom while reading my emails.

its not so much "worry" .. its more that over the last few decades ive watched all sorts of things move from the "free and chaotic" to the "tightly controlled" and that the left/right authoritarians have slowly got much more shrill in their agendas and punishments for non compliance.

add that to the fact that laws that used to be loosely enforced now have the tech to be strictly enforced and this society is becoming a far less pleasant place to live .

you of course benefit from this ever increasing legality so i understand why your oblivious to it, its your income.

[Ibrahim]

What are you guys worried about? The gubbermint seeing what websites you visit? I pity the NSA factotum grinding his teeth in boredom while reading my emails.

its not so much "worry" .. its more that over the last few decades ive watched all sorts of things move from the "free and chaotic" to the "tightly controlled" and that the left/right authoritarians have slowly got much more shrill in their agendas and punishments for non compliance.

add that to the fact that laws that used to be loosely enforced now have the tech to be strictly enforced and this society is becoming a far less pleasant place to live .

you of course benefit from this ever increasing legality so i understand why your oblivious to it, its your income.

I technically don't even practice law anymore, and I never did any sexy Last Free Man vs. Big Brother litigation when I did. My question was really more about why you think you need to go "off the grid," and what you think you gain by that? I mean unless you have or plan to commit some major crimes, I don't see the benefit.

[noddy]

somewhere between the cliche;s you love so much are things that have been lost and i want back..somewhere along the line "progress" became ruthlessy enforced rather than encouraged..

i cant afford to go off the grid, that is only possible for the very rich or very poor in my country, i will stay involved in politics for quite some time yet and add my feeble little voice to the war against the middle class fear driven w*nkers.

for me personally, im not that worried what the gutterment sees me doing and not doing, im long passed the teenage experimentation and learning stage and am delightfully boring... i spend most of my time on wildlife photography forums.

i am worried for the teenage version of me now, the one that sought out the dangerous and wanted to learn about the things beyond the sanitised schoolyard explanation...

in a more nuanced and poorly enforced world that teenage boy (me!) got away with being in the wrong crowd, the wrong place.. saying the wrong things and doing the wrong things... i grew out of this as most do and didnt end up with permenant records on my electronic record or automated punishments from hyperbolic politics ... aka "we are making an example of this behaviour"..