Power of Words

[Jnalum Persicum]

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. . illustrates the power of words to radically change your message and your effect upon the world

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[ansuchin]

Very Beautiful, Jnalum Persicum. Thank you.

We can only reach or touch each other, Azari, with the English words we formulate and articulate here. How we frame our circumstances, our aspirations, and our understandings can have real impact upon others, for good or for ill, sometimes in ways we cannot imagine or have even considered.

In the cyber forum worlds of the last several years from Spengler, through Diegetics, to this current venue, I have never reached anyone by the expressions in my eyes, my mouth, my face, or by the postures and movements of my body, and I, similarly, have been able only to read the words of others. In reality, I have always been operating blind as the blind beggar and the woman did in the video, but even more limited than that: I cannot touch the shoes of another as the blind man did to the kind woman in the video, I cannot touch another with my hand, and I cannot rewrite anyone's words for their benefit.

Under such conditions, what words I do select and how I apply them must become a sacred charge for me. It is not the kind and discerning speech is always pretty and flowery - it may even appear harsh and critical at times, but, for me, it must constantly be based upon compassion, a compassion that intends to provide somebody support or help for a chance to grow and to understand in new ways. I believe that these are understandings that have grown for me over these almost five years...

[feck]

Sounds like someone takes herself WAY too seriously... and might have a problem distinguishing people from the ridiculous ideas they tend to spout...

[Demon of Undoing]

Not really.

There is life and death in the tongue. Words send people to their doom and save them from it. Say the wrong thing to your child and watch something die in their eyes. Then you'll get An's burden.

[feck]

That's just it - An seems to presume such superiority in all cases, when it only applies in very limited ones.
An's words hold no such power over me, for example, nor would they make it possible to bring water to a faucet were the pipes an inch short.

[ansuchin]

Hello feck,

What I say are understandings I have discovered from my own experience and not ideas or attitudes I simply presume. I am expressing understandings that I hope will be helpful to some and provoke thought in others, but I also recognise that they may often be simply ignored or dismissed. How what I say applies or does not in assorted cases is up to others to discover for themselves if they wish to.

[feck]

Hello An -

MY experience, arguably longer and of greater breadth than yours, suggests my words have more effect on those who want or expect something from me, and no effect whatsoever on water flow.
Your experience may be different though. Indeed, so may everyone else's. With 6 billion stories of experience, there's little chance to hear them all. Thanks for sharing yours with us, but how is it relevant to my experience?

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

That's just it - An seems to presume such superiority in all cases, when it only applies in very limited ones.
An's words hold no such power over me, for example, nor would they make it possible to bring water to a faucet were the pipes an inch short.

Words work even there, too. They express expectations and conditions that may make it possible to complete such a feat. "Look, I only need it to work for about ten minutes, turning it on maybe two times"....... then I would know to split the pipe somewhere before the fitting, bridge the gap with a bit of soda can metal and wrap the hell outta that sucker with duct tape......'>........

[feck]

And what of the difference between ideas, and those who bear them? Simplistically, to conflate the two is an error.
If Philosophy is "The study of problems", to personify or personalize those problems would seem to add little to the endeavor.

[feck]

That's just it - An seems to presume such superiority in all cases, when it only applies in very limited ones.
An's words hold no such power over me, for example, nor would they make it possible to bring water to a faucet were the pipes an inch short.

Words work even there, too. They express expectations and conditions that may make it possible to complete such a feat. "Look, I only need it to work for about ten minutes, turning it on maybe two times"....... then I would know to split the pipe somewhere before the fitting, bridge the gap with a bit of soda can metal and wrap the hell outta that sucker with duct tape......'>........

That would rather sound like an idea independent of the tone one uses to duck tape the little fucker. This would rather support my point about the difference betwixt ideas and their bearers.

[noddy]

there is a cultural difference in perception between those of us raised "sticks n stones" versus those raised to be ermm, polite.

~

[feck]

My experience leads me to think there is little difference in the freezing temperature of water across cultures, merely convenient ways of expressing it.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

And what of the difference between ideas, and those who bear them? Simplistically, to conflate the two is an error.
If Philosophy is "The study of problems", to personify or personalize those problems would seem to add little to the endeavor.

Are building inspectors philosophers? Why not, no profession excludes one from thinking properly on the subject....'>......

Maybe you shouldn't personify an argument or a problem, but people do. They define for themselves success or failure, and this is important when you are dependent on your own resources and there is no back-up. This is not philosophically correct, I get that, but I wanted an example that shows words can change a problem to one that may be solved........

[feck]

Hello MsFFT -

You would seem to be speaking of ideas, something quite portable across culture and geography, as your faucet would not work without something bridging, as it were, the 1" gap regardless of one's choice of words.

"Singing or swearing may make the job go easier and faster, but that last 1" has to get surrounded by something." - Freud

[noddy]

i quite got into the "mind hacking" meme at one stage - the way different humans have different response patterns when in different moods and the ability to trigger a mood using different concepts... a pulpy scifi book (paratwa?) first got me thinking about it.

the simplistic explanation being strong emotional words like "mother" or "war" and the different headspaces then triggered by these words .. a teenage boy goes into completely different headspaces with either of those, ditto an elderly matriach... almost the opposite infact ;-P

this approach seems to be instinctually strong in confidence man, scammer types .. its part of their way of dealing with the world.

[ansuchin]

Hello An -

MY experience, arguably longer and of greater breadth than yours, suggests my words have more effect on those who want or expect something from me, and no effect whatsoever on water flow.
Your experience may be different though. Indeed, so may everyone else's. With 6 billion stories of experience, there's little chance to hear them all. Thanks for sharing yours with us, but how is it relevant to my experience?

My assumed more limited experiences in length and breadth are clearly not relevant to yours. You have made that quite clear.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

"Singing or swearing may make the job go easier and faster, but that last 1" has to get surrounded by something." - Freud

Yes, that's immutable and it can't be changed. Nothing changes the fact, but something changes the actor confronted by the fact. I heard that a chicken confronted with a fence where she cannot see where it ends will not try to walk along that perimeter in hopes of finding where it does. Is that true?......

If you're a plumber, you will fix the problem with the correct length of pipe or sweat-solder pieces to fit, depending on code, customer preference and availability of material. I am a housekeeper and somewhat lacking in the plumbing skillz, I can either stare at the problem dumbly, or cobble together a desperate fix. Words facilitate the work-around, a valid problem solution even for (some) philosophers. Ordinary people deal with problems, not facts. Facts are pertinent and definitely involved, but they are enmeshed in the narrative story-telling of a problem and answered in the narrative of a solution......

[Demon of Undoing]

See, this is funny.

An points out that speech can have great impact, and believes that because one can never tell the import attached to words, one ought to err on the side of light and joy.

Apparently, that doesn't fix all possible faucets, so pretty much piss on An.

Got it.

[noddy]

the dry and abrasive philosopheriserinater only flies when odin walks.

[feck]

posting.php?mode=quote&f=5&p=2360#pr2368

Not a mature response, much less one directed toward topic or anything positive, inasmuch as my experience leads me to believe.


posting.php?mode=reply&f=5&t=65#pr2374

Unintelligible.



posting.php?mode=reply&f=5&t=65#pr2373

"All possible faucets" a reference to Faucie's Faucet, an example of something immune to personal preference?

My points were that words have a limited domain, even An's, and that ideas are not the same thing as people so there's no need to grant them the same rights.

And as long as we're in a philosophy forum, would it be OK with you if we discussed philosophy and philosophical questions?

[Demon of Undoing]

Sure, that'll be fine. I'm easy. While we're at it, what say we don't essentially judge someone's subjective values as generally worthless, when it wasn't that kind of post to begin with? If that's too much, maybe refrain from insulting a well known and much respected poster right out of the gate?

I mean, " most people don't care", that's the Agora, is it?

Sorry, Col Sun, for making you work. Happy to let frack have the last word.

[feck]

<Sure, that'll be fine. I'm easy. While we're at it, what say we don't essentially judge someone's subjective values as generally worthless, when it wasn't that kind of post to begin with? If that's too much, maybe refrain from insulting a well known and much respected poster right out of the gate?

I mean, " most people don't care", that's the Agora, is it?

Sorry, Col Sun, for making you work. Happy to let frack have the last word.>



Are you saying I have insulted An? How?

Should I apologize to An, or to you for not valuing her words as much as herself or the people under her roof?

I spoke truth. Her words do not have the power over me they do with her children, in your example. And the authority of the life experience of a well-educated 20-something doesn't cut much ice with a man who has raised 3 well-educated, articulate 20-somethings.

[ansuchin]

Are you saying I have insulted An? How?

Should I apologize to An, or to you for not valuing her words as much as herself or the people under her roof?

I spoke truth. Her words do not have the power over me they do with her children, in your example. And the authority of the life experience of a well-educated 20-something doesn't cut much ice with a man who has raised 3 well-educated, articulate 20-somethings.

I do not feel insulted. What I wrote has no meaning to you. I am not your authority and you are not mine. However, if my words had no power over you, patronising me would be quite unnecessary for you to support that.

[feck]

If it helps to make my points another way...
An, in my readings of your posts over the last year or two, I regard you as an aesthetic treasure. A joy to read and a pleasure to contemplate, your thoughts have been as sunbeams on flowers, even as you discuss the recent work of Penrose or what it's like to suspect ill intentions in others - I imagine you as possessing a certain grace in your physical presence as well, as that's usually representative of a certain state of mind. A rare gem you are, in my estimation and experience. We're lucky to have you here.

Of course, none of this has any bearing on the consistency of our philosophical stances, particularly when they come up against other stances. Conversely, if Joe Stalin said "2+2=4, mod2", and showed his work, it would be hard to disagree with his use of maths on the basis of his tone.

[Ibrahim]

feck, are you tilde? Someone else? Your style and motivation seem familiar.