Based on the news story you linked to, because they belong to a rival political party and will oppose anything Erdogan/AKP does.Hans Bulvai wrote:So why are all these people protesting the resolution?
Turko-Syrian War
Re: Turko-Syrian War
- Endovelico
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.
- monster_gardener
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CLEVER: Kurds Go their own Way, Turks have a BAD day........
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Endovelico.Endovelico wrote:If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.
That could be a VERY CLEVER idea....... Possibly Brilliant..........
Rather like lizards that lose their tails to escape from pursuers........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotomy
Most of the Kurds seem to be in the North East corner of Syria.........*
Almost like a tail......................
"Bashir, Lose your tail to save your ASSad" ...........
Perhaps ASSad should hire you as an advisor, Endo
If that Idea works, you could deserve a big Christmas bonus ...........
Let the Kurds go their own Whey
Make the Turks have a VERY BAD Day.......
Maybe Iran too..........**
Reminds me of this song..........
6ul-cZyuYq4
*There are Kurds elsewhere in Syria............
**Which may make ASSad's Persian Paymasters less than enthusiastic about this Plan
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Re: Turko-Syrian War
I think Syria's oil may be up in the northeast, though. Same geological formation as in Mosul / North Iraq.
- Hans Bulvai
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
There are reports that the increase in PKK activity against Turkey is due to the free hand given to them by the Syrian regime as a way to put pressure on Ankara.
Poor Kurds. Everybody uses them then discards them.
Poor Kurds. Everybody uses them then discards them.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
Re: Turko-Syrian War
No, you use the Kurds and discard the Way.
- Hans Bulvai
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
Ideally, and against my better judgement, the Kurds do deserve their own place; but they have to realize that you can't have your cake and eat it too.
A Kurdistan as a federal province of a larger unified Arab/Persian entity where the oil gets shared and the profits benefit everyone.
Kinda like a fair Muslim Big Brother in charge (the women are vailed so what's the problem with him watching ). But, if you genuflect up, we'll snip your nuts!;)
I know, fantasy....
A Kurdistan as a federal province of a larger unified Arab/Persian entity where the oil gets shared and the profits benefit everyone.
Kinda like a fair Muslim Big Brother in charge (the women are vailed so what's the problem with him watching ). But, if you genuflect up, we'll snip your nuts!;)
I know, fantasy....
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
Re: Turko-Syrian War
You want to see "adventures" then try to form an independent Kurdistan and watch some really ugly WW2-style stuff happen in the region.Endovelico wrote:If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.
That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
- Endovelico
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
Re: Turko-Syrian War
They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.Endovelico wrote:An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
Plus all the domestic mass-murder.
- monster_gardener
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WW1-Style vs. WW2-Style..........
Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.Ibrahim wrote:You want to see "adventures" then try to form an independent Kurdistan and watch some really ugly WW2-style stuff happen in the region.Endovelico wrote:If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.
That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
Given the region, don't you mean WW1-style stuff.......You want to see "adventures" then try to form an independent Kurdistan and watch some really ugly WW2-style stuff happen in the region.
But maybe you are right, WW2-Style....... Kurds likely will be Tito/Bielski Bros/Abba Kovner..... Not WW1 Armenians
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
- Endovelico
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- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Turko-Syrian War
Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.Ibrahim wrote:They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.Endovelico wrote:An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
Plus all the domestic mass-murder.
Re: Turko-Syrian War
Endovelico wrote:.
Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.Ibrahim wrote:.
They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.Endovelico wrote:.
An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident..Ibrahim wrote:.
That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
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Plus all the domestic mass-murder.
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Head of Iraq Sunni terrorist, Tariq al-Hashemi (sentenced to death), sitting in Ankara and directing the terrorist laying DAILY car bombs in Iraq killing 100+ woman and children every week
Imagine if it would be other way round .. bombs going off every week in Turkey
That Phantom was shot down in Syrian space, Turks were flying reconnaissance over Syria since long time
and
Wahhabi terrorist attacking Syria have their headquarters in Turkish villages .. why should Syria not attack them ? ?
Turkey making big mistake .. this a trap west has laid for Turkey .. present Turkey is not a real coherent country like Germany .. it's pretty much a MishMash .. Atta Turk could not find a glue holding a Turkey together, that is why he define Turks as anybody speaking Turkish (meaning Kurd and Armenian and Greek and Bulgarian and Iberian Jews and and, all are, according to Atta Turk, Turks) .. well, folks, history does not work that way, things must have a deeper meaning
West, Europe, has destroyed Ottoman empire, was never a friend of Turk .. in cold war, Turks and West had same interest, the Russian Bear .. that, no more
Big mistake, Ibrahim, towing western line and alienating that whole space
.
Re: Turko-Syrian War
Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.Endovelico wrote:Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.Ibrahim wrote:They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.Endovelico wrote:An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
Plus all the domestic mass-murder.
The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.
- Endovelico
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
According to the BBC:Ibrahim wrote:Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.Endovelico wrote:Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.Ibrahim wrote:They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.Endovelico wrote:An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
Plus all the domestic mass-murder.
The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.
If I understand well, two Syrian mortar shells have fallen on the Turkish side of the border, the second of which caused no damage. The BBC considers these shells as "stray munitions". In response, Turkish artillery has been firing on Syria for five days. Being neither Turkish nor Syrian, I can only state that the response seems excessive, taking into account the accidental character of the Syrian shelling, and that Turkey seems to be looking for an excuse to attack Syria.Turkey responds to Syrian mortar fire in Akcakale
Turkish artillery has returned fire on Syria for a fifth day after a mortar landed in a border village.
Five people were killed in a similar incident, reportedly in the same street in the village, Akcakale, last week.
Turkey has been firing daily into Syria since Wednesday's deaths, as apparently stray munitions fall on its territory.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19861591
Re: Turko-Syrian War
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Thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, with some holding banners that read "Let's make peace and stop bloodshed" as they rally in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.
The Alevis demand religious equality in Turkey, where state-run religious services are tailored for the Sunni majority, and recognition of their houses of worship, which are denied state funding.
[..]
A man shouts " No to war!" as thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, march in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
Let me apologize in advance for my ignorance, but are the Turkish Alevi people different from the Syrian Alawite minority?Jnalum Persicum wrote:.
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Thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, with some holding banners that read "Let's make peace and stop bloodshed" as they rally in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.
The Alevis demand religious equality in Turkey, where state-run religious services are tailored for the Sunni majority, and recognition of their houses of worship, which are denied state funding.
[..]
A man shouts " No to war!" as thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, march in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.
.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawi
According to Wikipedia, there are only 450,000 Alevis in Turkey, but if they are as tough as the ones in Syria, then I would start worrying. Anyway, I like Turkey.
Last edited by HAL9000 on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Turko-Syrian War
A totally inaccurate, if not false characterization of the stance of "some on this forum".Ibrahim wrote:Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Turko-Syrian War
So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.Endovelico wrote:According to the BBC:Ibrahim wrote:Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.Endovelico wrote:Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.Ibrahim wrote:They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.Endovelico wrote:An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?
Plus all the domestic mass-murder.
The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.
If I understand well, two Syrian mortar shells have fallen on the Turkish side of the border, the second of which caused no damage. The BBC considers these shells as "stray munitions". In response, Turkish artillery has been firing on Syria for five days. Being neither Turkish nor Syrian, I can only state that the response seems excessive, taking into account the accidental character of the Syrian shelling, and that Turkey seems to be looking for an excuse to attack Syria.Turkey responds to Syrian mortar fire in Akcakale
Turkish artillery has returned fire on Syria for a fifth day after a mortar landed in a border village.
Five people were killed in a similar incident, reportedly in the same street in the village, Akcakale, last week.
Turkey has been firing daily into Syria since Wednesday's deaths, as apparently stray munitions fall on its territory.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19861591
But that aside, don't you respond differently depending on who "accidentally" wrongs you? The Assad regime is literally a mass-murdering dictatorship, don't you put them on a shorter leash than you would if, say, New Zealand accidentally sunk one of your merchant ships? I don't think other nations have an obligation to interfere in the Syrian revolution/civil war, but arguably people have been far too easy on Assad, not excessively harsh. Turkey is, so far, shelling Syrian army positions. Not punishing the Syrian civilian population. In fact it's Assad who is doing that.
- monster_gardener
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Rhapsody,Parodite wrote:A totally inaccurate, if not false characterization of the stance of "some on this forum".Ibrahim wrote:Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime
Quite Right, IMVHO.
Not enthused about ASSad but history indicates his replacement may well be worse.... especially for minorities like the Christians..
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
- monster_gardener
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
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Re: Turko-Syrian War
Thank you VERY Much for your Post, Ibrahim.Ibrahim wrote:So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.Endovelico wrote:According to the BBC:Ibrahim wrote:Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.Endovelico wrote:Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.Ibrahim wrote:They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.Endovelico wrote:
An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...
Plus all the domestic mass-murder.
The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.
If I understand well, two Syrian mortar shells have fallen on the Turkish side of the border, the second of which caused no damage. The BBC considers these shells as "stray munitions". In response, Turkish artillery has been firing on Syria for five days. Being neither Turkish nor Syrian, I can only state that the response seems excessive, taking into account the accidental character of the Syrian shelling, and that Turkey seems to be looking for an excuse to attack Syria.Turkey responds to Syrian mortar fire in Akcakale
Turkish artillery has returned fire on Syria for a fifth day after a mortar landed in a border village.
Five people were killed in a similar incident, reportedly in the same street in the village, Akcakale, last week.
Turkey has been firing daily into Syria since Wednesday's deaths, as apparently stray munitions fall on its territory.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19861591
But that aside, don't you respond differently depending on who "accidentally" wrongs you? The Assad regime is literally a mass-murdering dictatorship, don't you put them on a shorter leash than you would if, say, New Zealand accidentally sunk one of your merchant ships? I don't think other nations have an obligation to interfere in the Syrian revolution/civil war, but arguably people have been far too easy on Assad, not excessively harsh. Turkey is, so far, shelling Syrian army positions. Not punishing the Syrian civilian population. In fact it's Assad who is doing that.
I am not for the overthrow of ASSad and strongly suspect that there are those in Turkey who are looking for an excuse to invade.
But Syria would do well to make sure that there are NO mistakes unless like Panama's Noriega, ASSad thinks he will be safer in a Turkish Prison than where he is/thinks he will be shortly..........
That said, while a Turkish Invasion especially with NATO treaty required backing would likely mean the quick end of ASSad, thing might spiral out of control....... as happened with the Uz invasion of Iraq....... General Chaos might be true commander.......
Could be wrong........ Turks might not be quite as clumsy and stupid as we Uz were in Iraq......
Or they could be worse ......... But they would probably have to work at being worse........
True......... Remembering a sad recent example where an American/Uz sloppy showoff submarine captain sank a Japanese vessel by mistake and several people died......don't you put them on a shorter leash than you would if, say, New Zealand accidentally sunk one of your merchant ships?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru ... _collision
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
- Endovelico
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- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Turko-Syrian War
The not accidentally shot-down Turkish aircraft was illegally flying over Syrian territory, I believe...Ibrahim wrote:So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.
Re: Turko-Syrian War
The USA should just withdraw unilaterally from the middle-east and central Asia. Let the post collapse governments know we are always interested in trade.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Turko-Syrian War
Endovelico wrote:The not accidentally shot-down Turkish aircraft was illegally flying over Syrian territory, I believe...Ibrahim wrote:So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.
So you shouldn't shell people for shelling your territory, but its ok to shoot down planes for for accidentally entering your airspace? Decide whether you're a dove or a hawk, man.
Re: Turko-Syrian War
How does this relate to the current situation in Syria or conflict looming between Syria and Turkey?Enki wrote:The USA should just withdraw unilaterally from the middle-east and central Asia. Let the post collapse governments know we are always interested in trade.