Voter ID laws

[Enki]

Wow. Reading this thread is hilarious.

Apparently GOP wants to disenfranchise blacks by
a) Mischievously asking them for photo IDs.
b) Having Romney's son rig the voting machines.

As a statist European, I have to submit to my native country's mandatory ID laws -- I am legally bound to have a valid photo id and renew it before it expires. I take it for granted that I cannot vote or perform any of a vast number of actions without a valid ID. So, given that background, I feel I need to ask: how exactly does the system work now? Do Americans just walk to the voting booth, say I am so and so, and vote? What's to stop me from travelling around Chicago and voting early and often? Arent' there lists? How do they prevent double voting? How do they check that people without IDs are who they say they are?

Yep, basically you can go and you sign your signature. They have your signature on file. If someone else voted and said they were you, you can fill out an affidavit ballot claiming that someone fraudulently claimed to be you.

[Taboo]

So who's to stop me from voting for my recently deceased grandfather, for instance?

This would be instantly abused in Eastern Europe. Parties would have dead people vote by the busloads.

[Enki]

So who's to stop me from voting for my recently deceased grandfather, for instance?

No one really. But that sort of thing is a marginal activity, not the rampant scourge that Republicans make it out to be.

This would be instantly abused in Eastern Europe. Parties would have dead people vote by the busloads.

That's the rumor, doesn't really happen that much. There was a local race where it mattered here, but that race was decided by 19 votes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/2 ... 06697.html

H.I.G. Capital is a Miami-based private equity fund that manages $8.5 billion in capital. Hart Intercivic is a company exclusively in the business of manufacturing and programming voting systems.

Charles Sipkins, a crisis communications consultant serving as spokesman for H.I.G., told The Huffington Post on Monday that "Hart InterCivic has a long track record of supporting a fair and open democratic process." He added: "Any suggestions that the company might try to influence the outcome of election results are unfounded.”

But there are elements to the story that nonetheless alarm election experts.

H.I.G. Capital's co-founder, Anthony Tamer, previously worked at Bain & Company, the global consulting giant where Romney was once CEO. Eight of the company's managing directors came from Bain as well. Tamer and his wife are major Romney donors, having each contributed $50,000 to the pro-Romney super PAC Restore Our Future. Tamer has also donated $75,000 to the Romney Victory Fund.

And Tamer has plenty of company at H.I.G. Although it isn't a particularly big firm, H.I.G.'s directors have collectively given so much money to Romney that their company is the sixth biggest contributor to all Romney committees, as calculated by opensecrets.org.


Almost all of their 2012 contributions, in fact, went either to Romney or to the Republican National Committee.

Hart Intercivic, meanwhile, provides voting machines for 370 jurisdictions around the nation, with about 17.7 million registered voters.

One of the jurisdictions with Hart Intercivic equipment is Hamilton County -- which includes Cincinnati, the third-largest city in the hotly contested swing state of Ohio.

[Taboo]

Yes, I remember once reading that slot-machines in casinos are more severely regulated and more carefully checked for reliability than voting machines in the US.

From my personal experience with monitoring elections in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, the more likely culprits in any cheating are not individual voters, or voting machine makers, but immoral politicians, usually running utterly poor and corrupt medium and large cities, busing around voters like it's some sort of fare. In the US context, that would generally be Democrats in minority neighborhoods. So when urban black leaders railed against ID voting laws, that triggered some old alarm bells.

Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.

[Enki]

The only people who get bussed are old people, and that's not really corrupt that's just a service to help get infirm people to the polls. My polling station is across the street. We have low voter turnout and its ridiculous because you are never more than five blocks from your polling station.

[Ibrahim]

Wow. Reading this thread is hilarious.

Apparently GOP wants to disenfranchise blacks by
a) Mischievously asking them for photo IDs.
b) Having Romney's son rig the voting machines.

As a statist European, I have to submit to my native country's mandatory ID laws -- I am legally bound to have a valid photo id and renew it before it expires. I take it for granted that I cannot vote or perform any of a vast number of actions without a valid ID. So, given that background, I feel I need to ask: how exactly does the system work now? Do Americans just walk to the voting booth, say I am so and so, and vote? What's to stop me from travelling around Chicago and voting early and often? Arent' there lists? How do they prevent double voting? How do they check that people without IDs are who they say they are?

How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.


Anyway this debate might still have some real "ompf" to it if the Pennsylvania GOP hadn't admitted that the point of these laws was to help them win swing states, and numerous studies and courts ruled that the measures would prevent more eligible citizens from voting than it would suppress fraud. The overwhelming reaction of Republicans in general and every conservative on this forum has been "good."

[monster_gardener]

So who's to stop me from voting for my recently deceased grandfather, for instance?

This would be instantly abused in Eastern Europe. Parties would have dead people vote by the busloads.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Taboo.

Quite right......

The Drac Pack .......... ........

AIUI they played a big role in electing JFK in 1960 vs. Richard Nixon.........

But I have affection for JFK......... His dying helped get Uz to the Moon.........

We need to do that again..........

Go to the Moon and this time colonize it..........

Not kill another Kennedy..........

They're fairly good at doing that themselves......

[Taboo]

How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.

You must be. You're also not very good at reading:

Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.

every conservative on this forum has been "good."

Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.

[monster_gardener]

How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.

You must be. You're also not very good at reading:

Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.

every conservative on this forum has been "good."

Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.

Thank you VERY Much for your post.

You must be. You're also not very good at reading:

Seconded.

Ibrahim did the same thing to Parodite.........

Seems that the Ibster may just be scanning and searching for an opportunity to insult.......

Or maybe Ibrahim is Losing his Ability to Read with Comprehension......

May need a multimedia approach to help him understand....... need pictures and videos to go with our posts.

[Ibrahim]

How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.

You must be. You're also not very good at reading

No, you're just not very good at playing both sides of an issue.

every conservative on this forum has been "good."

Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.

Fine. That's not how I identify you.

[Enki]

http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archi ... -6/263901/

If you think the Florida recount was bad just wait til November 6.

[Skin Job]

Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.

Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.

[Ibrahim]

Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.

Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.

Ok, what do the state constitutions say? Are there state constitutions that demand photo ID?

[Skin Job]

Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.

Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.

Ok, what do the state constitutions say? Are there state constitutions that demand photo ID?

I'm not familiar with all 50 state constitutions, but most do not demand it, nor do they expressly forbid it. Michigan, for example, has a state code requiring photo ID. Its constitution is rather vague on the subject, but the relevant portion of Article II of the 1963 Michigan Constitution is taken by many as justification for an ID requirement:

...The legislature shall enact laws to preserve the purity of elections, to preserve the secrecy of the ballot, to guard against abuses of the elective franchise, and to provide for a system of voter registration and absentee voting...

[monster_gardener]

How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.

You must be. You're also not very good at reading

No, you're just not very good at playing both sides of an issue.

every conservative on this forum has been "good."

Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.

Fine. That's not how I identify you.

Thank you for your post, Ibrahim.

No, you're just not very good at playing both sides of an issue.

No, you're just not very good when you are caught flat-footed by facts.

Taboo provided proof.......

You presented insult......

Not at all convincing.....

[Ibrahim]

Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.

Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.

Ok, what do the state constitutions say? Are there state constitutions that demand photo ID?

I'm not familiar with all 50 state constitutions, but most do not demand it, nor do they expressly forbid it. Michigan, for example, has a state code requiring photo ID. Its constitution is rather vague on the subject, but the relevant portion of Article II of the 1963 Michigan Constitution is taken by many as justification for an ID requirement:

...The legislature shall enact laws to preserve the purity of elections, to preserve the secrecy of the ballot, to guard against abuses of the elective franchise, and to provide for a system of voter registration and absentee voting...

I don't see how that empowers them to prevent people from voting because they do not have government issued ID.

[Skin Job]

Foreign election officials amazed by trust-based U.S. voting system

[Typhoon]

Foreign election officials amazed by trust-based U.S. voting system

Well, I think that is something that the US can rightly be proud of.

[Skin Job]

True, if this system of trust is still warranted. I'm afraid the environment has become toxic enough to cast serious doubts on the assumption that corruption is not a significant problem. Reports of election judge's calls of alarm being roundly and perhaps systematically ignored look particularly troubling.

[Ibrahim]

Now that there is no election looming it would be a fine time to create a voter ID system and provide all eligible voters with ID, well ahead of the next election.

[Skin Job]

Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?

[Ibrahim]

Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?

Obviously the timing is the crux of the issue. Implement these measures as the last minute to suppress the vote, as the Penn GOP speaker admitted. That said the high turnout among certain groups suggests that people took the suppression effort seriously and were more motivated to turn out at a result.

[Skin Job]

Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?

Obviously the timing is the crux of the issue. Implement these measures as the last minute to suppress the vote, as the Penn GOP speaker admitted. That said the high turnout among certain groups suggests that people took the suppression effort seriously and were more motivated to turn out at a result.

Yeah, but at no time in this thread did you indicate any support for any voter ID system, regardless of timing. Instead you spent a fair amount of time demonizing the very concept, along with its supporters. It's disheartening to think you have been being disingenuous all along. I might not always think the best of you, but so far I've not taken you for a liar. Why the change of heart?

[Ibrahim]

Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?

Obviously the timing is the crux of the issue. Implement these measures as the last minute to suppress the vote, as the Penn GOP speaker admitted. That said the high turnout among certain groups suggests that people took the suppression effort seriously and were more motivated to turn out at a result.

Yeah, but at no time in this thread did you indicate any support for any voter ID system, regardless of timing.

I don't particularly support the idea, but if there is popular support to put one in place then now is the logical time to do it, not right before an election.

Instead you spent a fair amount of time demonizing the very concept, along with its supporters.

Actually I correctly identified the supporters as having an agenda, as they were only championing this effort in an attempt to exclude voters in the 2012 election, particularly among groups that disproportionately vote Democratic. Insofar as I discussed the concept of voter ID it was only to point out that there is no mandate for it in the US or state constitutions.

It's disheartening to think you have been being disingenuous all along. I might not always think the best of you, but so far I've not taken you for a liar. Why the change of heart?

What?

[Taboo]

I don't understand. You can't open a bank account, enter a contract, buy alcohol or even enter a bar without an ID. Not having an ID is self-defeating in a modern society. I agree with Ibrahim that mandating this with only a couple of months to spare before an election is not ok. But people should have IDs, otherwise they are hamstringing themselves in any modern society.