Moderate Islam in Indonesia

[Parodite]

‘GOD DOESN’T EXIST’: INDONESIAN ATHEIST BEAT, FACES JAIL OVER ‘BLASPHEMOUS’ ANTI-ISLAM POST

Posting risqué messages on Facebook could cost you a prospective job or even negatively impact your relationships (pending, of course, on the content you’re putting on your page). But for one Indonesian man, sharing a very basic fact about his personal beliefs and defending atheism has led to an attack by an angry mob and a potential jail sentence because his comments were considered anti-Islam.

[Typhoon]

Not to excuse this behaviour, but try espousing the same views in the US Bible Belt.

[Parodite]

Not to excuse this behaviour, but try espousing the same views in the US Bible Belt.

Indeed, the response is similar. But being mobbed and sent to jail by your government is just a couple of steps further on that same track.

[Ibrahim]

"Moderate Islam/Moderate Muslim" is a meaningless term introduced by people who hate Muslims for the express purpose of demonstrating that there is no such thing as a "Moderate Muslim." Stupid examples like this Indonesia case are used as a club by bigots to attack Muslims generally, and I think most Muslim-haters would be happier if this innocent man is actually killed because it would be more convenient for their hobby of online bigotry.

To me this is misuse of the Internet. Facebook isn't about attacking isolated atheists, its about cyber-bullying gay college students into killing themselves.

[Parodite]

The guy, according to the article, was physically beaten up by locals that entered the office he works because of his facebook messages, and arrested by the Indonesian police on charge of blasphemy which could mean 4 years prison. That is a bit more than cyber bullying. It is always good to keep an eye on excesses like these in religion dominated cultures, wherever and whenever they occur.

[monster_gardener]

"Moderate Islam/Moderate Muslim" is a meaningless term introduced by people who hate Muslims for the express purpose of demonstrating that there is no such thing as a "Moderate Muslim." Stupid examples like this Indonesia case are used as a club by bigots to attack Muslims generally, and I think most Muslim-haters would be happier if this innocent man is actually killed because it would be more convenient for their hobby of online bigotry.

To me this is misuse of the Internet. Facebook isn't about attacking isolated atheists, its about cyber-bullying gay college students into killing themselves.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

"Moderate Islam/Moderate Muslim" is a meaningless term

IMVHO Not so.........

Hans recently published at least one example of the sort of Miltant Moderate Muslims that I LIKE hearing about: those Egyptian Ladies in the beauty salon who used their canes on the Salafi goons who were trying to turn Egypt into another Saudi Arabia.......

Three cheers for them!!!

AIUI Egypt has long had a moderate "don't enforce those silly old rules" attitude.........

Glad there are Militant Moderates who are willing to defend that.

Hope they are armed/trapped/lawyered up for bear in case the G_d dammed goons return.

Those heroic Egyptian women remind me of the Bikers who shield funerals here in the US from the antics of the vile Westboro Baddest Baptist Church............. basically a bunch of lawyers looking for a reason to sue..........


Think Hans also posted another story about a brave Egyptian young lady who was Godiving on the Internet............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godiva

Would like to send her a box of chocolates

http://www.godiva.com

Three cheers for her too!

[Typhoon]

The guy, according to the article, was physically beaten up by locals that entered the office he works because of his facebook messages, and arrested by the Indonesian police on charge of blasphemy which could mean 4 years prison. That is a bit more than cyber bullying. It is always good to keep an eye on excesses like these in religion dominated cultures, wherever and whenever they occur.

Govt involvement is a problem.

In a civilized world, laws against so-called blasphemy would not exist.

[Ibrahim]

The guy, according to the article, was physically beaten up by locals that entered the office he works because of his facebook messages, and arrested by the Indonesian police on charge of blasphemy which could mean 4 years prison. That is a bit more than cyber bullying. It is always good to keep an eye on excesses like these in religion dominated cultures, wherever and whenever they occur.

Govt involvement is a problem.

In a civilized world, laws against so-called blasphemy would not exist.

Like slavery, they have existed for the vast majority of human history and civilization. I'm inclined to think that their absence is an improvement, but its a recent improvement, like the abolition of slavery or the (relatively) equal status of women.

[Ibrahim]

The guy, according to the article, was physically beaten up by locals that entered the office he works because of his facebook messages, and arrested by the Indonesian police on charge of blasphemy which could mean 4 years prison. That is a bit more than cyber bullying. It is always good to keep an eye on excesses like these in religion dominated cultures, wherever and whenever they occur.

I was referring to a recent American case in which college students hounded a gay student at their school into killing himself, so in fact the Indonesian example is less severe in that the individual isn't dead. But the point, obviously I thought, is that mob anger and discrimination isn't necessarily reflective of the ethics and ideals of a society at large.

[admin edit -> hell]

[Parodite]

The guy, according to the article, was physically beaten up by locals that entered the office he works because of his facebook messages, and arrested by the Indonesian police on charge of blasphemy which could mean 4 years prison. That is a bit more than cyber bullying. It is always good to keep an eye on excesses like these in religion dominated cultures, wherever and whenever they occur.

I was referring to a recent American case in which college students hounded a gay student at their school into killing himself, so in fact the Indonesian example is less severe in that the individual isn't dead. But the point, obviously I thought, is that mob anger and discrimination isn't necessarily reflective of the ethics and ideals of a society at large.

Whatever your point, my point is to show that excesses like these do occur also in Indonesia, an otherwise and overal moderate country and culture. If this guy is send to prison though by an Indonesian court.. unfortunately have to conclude that Indonesia still has a long way to go.

[admin edit -> hell]

Blasphemy law in Indonesia

Criminal Code

Indonesia prohibits blasphemy by its Criminal Code. The Code’s Article 156(a) targets those who deliberately, in public, express feelings of hostility, hatred, or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion, and targets those who disgrace a religion. The penalty for violating Article 156(a) is a maximum of five years imprisonment.[1][2]

[Ibrahim]

The guy, according to the article, was physically beaten up by locals that entered the office he works because of his facebook messages, and arrested by the Indonesian police on charge of blasphemy which could mean 4 years prison. That is a bit more than cyber bullying. It is always good to keep an eye on excesses like these in religion dominated cultures, wherever and whenever they occur.

I was referring to a recent American case in which college students hounded a gay student at their school into killing himself, so in fact the Indonesian example is less severe in that the individual isn't dead. But the point, obviously I thought, is that mob anger and discrimination isn't necessarily reflective of the ethics and ideals of a society at large.

Whatever your point, my point is to show that excesses like these do occur also in Indonesia, an otherwise and overal moderate country and culture.

What makes you think Indonesia is and "overall moderate country and culture?" It's not. It was a dictatorship for decades, suffers from massive poverty issues, and the ethnic Javanese occasionally spaz out and murder ethnic Chinese in a kind of misplaced class warfare. That's before we get into East Timor and forced sterilizations.

If this guy is send to prison though by an Indonesian court.. unfortunately have to conclude that Indonesia still has a long way to go.

The UN, WHO, and similar international organizations could have told you that before this guy got threatened for his atheism.

[admin edit -> hell]

[noddy]

well its true to say that if you go into any community and reject the memes that the community believes holds it together you are in for a wild ride.

not so true to say you will always be bashed by them and then the police will arrest you for causing a disturbance.

i wouldnt be blaming it particularly on islam but i would be wary of most islamic countries for this kind of response, ditto any of the more old school tribal places.

[Ibrahim]

i wouldnt be blaming it particularly on islam but i would be wary of most islamic countries for this kind of response, ditto any of the more old school tribal places.

Anywhere there are violent traditionalists. The best Islamic example is Afghanistan or similar parts of Pakistan, but Hindu "nationalists" will occasionally kill Christian converts, and the ultra-Orthodox Jewish settlers try to force all non-Orthodox out of their communities with systematic violence and harassment.

The best way to look at it is as primitivism of the Pol Pot variety. We want to live in the past, and if you try to rock the boat we will use the most time-honored corrective of killing you. "Tribal" is not even the right word, as much as people like to invoke it when talking about the non-white world. A group like the Taliban is an ideological movement that transcends tribes, even it tribes otherwise play a role in the politics of the area and raising troops.

[Parodite]

i wouldnt be blaming it particularly on islam but i would be wary of most islamic countries for this kind of response, ditto any of the more old school tribal places.

Indeed. Islam is just another ideology (religious, political, racial or otherwise) and as such only a secundary phenomenon that feeds into and recombines with the more primal behavioral patterns as studied in biology, or in broader sense psycho-sociology. The sum of all that is then object for anthropological studies.

But in the field of ideology itself, included religious belief systems, it does matter what type of ideology it is, the nature and content of its written sources especially.

If you read the No.1 source of Islam, the Koran, you will notice that it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him. Now that is the similarity with other dictatorial ideologies, and Pol-Pot is a good example indeed (thanks for the tip, Ibrovich) of same.

[Parodite]

Hilarious. Your record of bigotry is well-known, ever since you came out of the closet with your plan to target minorities in your own country for unmotivated verbal abuse.

Oh yes, and it is still a brilliant idea! A win-win;

Those that suspect most Muslims start stabbing if they could if you use your freedom of expression in front of their holy places... might find out that it was all paranoia. Wilders can go home and stop bleaching his hair. There might be Muslims that just go to court because they feel hurt deeply and insulted.. but that is fine. That is what we have courts for.

But if there will be lavender because a number Muslims will resort to physical violence or express a foamed around the mouth wish to do so while only being held back by police force... it would show there is still a lot of work to do, and get serious about these things with exactly and only those Muslims that are a reason for concern instead of black painting an entire community.

It would be a great learning opportunity for all.

[Ibrahim]

Hilarious. Your record of bigotry is well-known, ever since you came out of the closet with your plan to target minorities in your own country for unmotivated verbal abuse.

Oh yes, and it is still a brilliant idea!

Case closed. The moral and logical equivalent of walking around Baltimore screaming "why are there so many niggers in jail!?!?!"

[Ibrahim]

If you read the No.1 source of Islam, the Koran, you will notice that it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

That is false simply as a matter of fact. The problem with people "learning" about the Quran on various racist websites is that they tend not to know what is actually in it.

As a simple point of fact, the Quran as compiled in modern editions begins with a profession of faith, followed by the declaration that it is the world of God, and that upon hearing it some will believe it and some will not.

[Apollonius]

Ibrahim,

Open the Qur'an to a random page. Close your eyes. Point down. Open your eyes.


Two thirds of the time you have landed on a passage condemning unbelievers.



Statistics and the meaning of Islam - by Bill Warner, New English Review, November 2008
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpag ... c_id/28244

To measure the Koranic fixation on kafirs, let’s measure the fixation by counting the amount of text devoted to them. In Mecca an astounding 67% of the text is devoted to the kafir. In Medina 51% was about kafirs. The amount of text in the entire Koran devoted to kafirs is 61%.

As an aside, Islam excludes kafirs in every way from its religious practice. Since the kafir is outside of Islam, the term political Islam[2] is used to describe the doctrine of Islam as it is applied to the “others”, the kafirs. So 61% of the Koran is about political Islam, not religious Islam. (K.S. Lal gives the figure of 63% in Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, Aditya Prakashan, 1999, N. Delhi, pg. 4)

This article also includes some other very interesting statistics about the Qur'an, hadiths, and Sira.

Comparisons with other religious texts would be useful. I don't have these statistics at hand but you can spot check the New Testament, the Hebrew Bible, the Bhagavadgita, the Dhammapada, or the Tao te ching using the method I described at the beginning of this post.

[Parodite]

As a simple point of fact, the Quran as compiled in modern editions begins with a profession of faith, followed by the declaration that it is the world of God, and that upon hearing it some will believe it and some will not.

Maybe it is more beneficial to this board if you provide us with an online version of the Quran that you consider a good one, for starters. Many people, among them ex-Muslims, consider the Quran full of hate-speech against non-believers. They might misunderstand Allah's poetry of course... and maybe we should not take his anger tantrums too literally.

Please enlighten us Oh Noble and Wise Reformist Scholar, that we may one day all find life in Allah the Great. It seems He really does mean well, but somehow his communications with mankind have not always been... optimal or human friendly. Maybe because of what people did in His Noble Name, hypocritically and falsely claiming knowledge of His Words and putting others on the track to Hell, like this Woman:

1sivAkHdV4Q

[Typhoon]

well its true to say that if you go into any community and reject the memes that the community believes holds it together you are in for a wild ride.

not so true to say you will always be bashed by them and then the police will arrest you for causing a disturbance.

i wouldnt be blaming it particularly on islam but i would be wary of most islamic countries for this kind of response, ditto any of the more old school tribal places.

Perhaps one day our species will evolve away from the poo-flinging simian tribalism that makes up so much of human activity.

[Ibrahim]

As a simple point of fact, the Quran as compiled in modern editions begins with a profession of faith, followed by the declaration that it is the world of God, and that upon hearing it some will believe it and some will not.

Maybe it is more beneficial to this board if you provide us with an online version of the Quran that you consider a good one, for starters.

Any of the common English editions is fine. The question is not translation, but that you've never read the thing and don't know what subjects are addressed in what order. The first pages in any modern edition in any language do not contain "hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall [non-Muslims]." You made this claim because you never actually looked at one.

Please enlighten us Oh Noble and Wise Reformist Scholar,

It's not an issue of scholarship. You simply made a statement that proves you've never read the actual book, even the first couple of pages.

[admin]

The petty name calling in this thread has gotten out of hand.

Yes, I know who started it, but I would simply ask that everyone stop continuing with it.

Indonesia is a very interesting topic and the personal histrionics diminishes this thread.

Ideally, posters would take it upon themselves to clean after themselves - remove the offensive bits from their posts leaving the interesting parts.

Now that, unlike the petty personal exchanges, would be civilized.

Surprise me.

~ admin

[Ibrahim]

Statistics and the meaning of Islam - by Bill Warner, New English Review, November 2008

Bill Warner writes for and chairs an anti-Islamic propaganda "The Center for Study of Political Islam. These types of organizations provide pseudo-intellectual support to uneducated bigots too lazy to read the actual texts and too biased to read legitimate scholarship in the field. You would be hard-pressed to find a less-reputable source of information. His "analysis" of the Quran is as useful as the Goebbles expert scholarship on Judaism.

[Apollonius]

Ibrahim,

Open the Qur'an to a random page. Close your eyes. Point down. Open your eyes.


Two thirds of the time you have landed on a passage condemning unbelievers.

How would you know? As I've pointed out ever since the original Spengler forum, you bigots aren't informed enough to know one way or the other, you're just repeated something some other Muslim-hater wrote on a website.

I have my own copy of the Qur'an and I just checked it again. There are many versions online. You don't really have to have any special skills in linguistics or scholarship to at least get a very good idea of what the majority of the text of the Qur'an is about, and you can do this yourself in a matter of a few minutes. Just try that experiment.



What versions of the Qur"an do you recommend that are searchable? We could do a word / sentence / verse textual analysis using, for example, the words "kafir" (or some equivalent) or "punishment" or "judgment" or "Hell", and then compare it to the results we get from other sacred texts. The Qur'an has always struck me as, on the one hand nonsensical, and on the other, vicious.



It doesn't really matter to me one way or another who Bill Warner is or who he writes for. I'm really only interested in the statistics. I think this kind of study should be undertaken with all sacred texts.

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim,

Open the Qur'an to a random page. Close your eyes. Point down. Open your eyes.


Two thirds of the time you have landed on a passage condemning unbelievers.

How would you know? As I've pointed out ever since the original Spengler forum, you bigots aren't informed enough to know one way or the other, you're just repeated something some other Muslim-hater wrote on a website.

I have my own copy of the Qur'an and I just checked it again. There are many versions online. You don't really have to have any special skills in linguistics or scholarship to at least get a very good idea of what the majority of the text of the Qur'an is about, and you can do this yourself in a matter of a few minutes. Just try that experiment.

I did. I got a verse about David loving horses. It's comical to even refer to this as an "experiment" and I'VE ALREADY STATED that editions of the Quran are readily available and roughly equivalent. That has nothing to do with the fact that your "experiment" is not scientific or objective and proves nothing.

What versions of the Qur"an do you recommend that are searchable?

Not relevant/already addressed. The issue is biased, second-hand interpretation. E.g. Rhapsody's false claim about how the Quran begins, or your "experiment" or link to an article by a known propagandist.

It doesn't really matter to me one way or another who Bill Warner is or who he writes for. I'm really only interested in the statistics. I think this kind of study should be undertaken with all sacred texts.

This is precisely the point. These aren't reliable "statistics." It is a collection subjective claims made by somebody who hates Islam so much he started a website (pardon me, "Center") for the express purpose of bashing it. The fact that you treat this as some kind of scientific evidence is telling.