Socialist Slaughterhouses begin

[Mr. Perfect]

The benefits of state slavery.

http://www.france24.com/en/20121218-bel ... -sufferers

Belgium is considering a significant change to its decade-old euthanasia law that would allow minors and Alzheimer's sufferers to seek permission to die.

The proposed changes to the law were submitted to parliament Tuesday by the SURPRISE Socialist party and are likely to be approved by other parties, although no date has yet been put forward for a parliamentary debate.

"The idea is to update the law to take better account of dramatic situations and extremely harrowing cases we must find a response to," party leader Thierry Giet said.

The draft legislation calls for "the law to be extended to minors if they are capable of discernment or affected by an incurable illness or suffering that we cannot alleviate."

Belgium was the second country in the world after the Netherlands to legalise euthanasia in 2002 but it applies only to people over the age of 18.

Socialist Senator Philippe Mahoux, who helped draft the proposed changes, said there had been cases of adolescents who "had the capacity to decide" their future.

He said parliamentarians would also consider extended mercy-killing to people suffering from Alzheiner's-type illnesses.

Euthanasia was allowed to an Alzheimer's patient for the first time in the Netherlands last year.

[Mr. Perfect]

http://www.france24.com/en/20121218-rep ... ted-deaths

France should allow doctors to "accelerate the coming of death" for terminally ill patients, a report to President Francois Hollande recommended Tuesday.

Hollande referred the report to a national council on medical ethics which will examine the precise circumstances under which such steps could be authorised with a view to producing draft legislation by June 2013.

"The existing legislation does not meet the legitimate concerns expressed by people who are gravely and incurably ill," Hollande said.

The report said physicians should be allowed to authorise interventions that ensure quicker deaths for terminal patients in three specific sets of circumstances.

In the first case, the patient involved would be capable of making an explicit request to that effect or have issued advance instructions in the event of him or her becoming incapable of expressing an opinion.

The second scenario envisages medical teams withdrawing treatment and/or nourishment on the basis of a request by the family of a dying patient who is no longer conscious and has not made any instructions.

The third would apply to cases where treatment is serving only to sustain life artificially.

The author of the report, Professor Didier Sicard, stressed that he did not support any measures which "suddenly and prematurely end life."

"We are radically opposed to inscribing euthanasia in law," Sicard told a press conference.

He also stressed that he was not advocating Swiss-style clinics where people are provided with lethal medication to enable them to end their own lives.

[Crocus sativus]

.

Mp, not clear, you for or against ?



.

[noddy]

if you donated 12 gauge riot shotguns to the eldery and bedridden in europe they could waste the f*ckers coming to turn their life support off.

maybe bono could do a charity concert.

cannabis sativa, i think mr p is in favour of not giving the power of decision about who lives and dies to the government and would rather it happened as per the context of that persons life decisions.. did they priorities long life and pay for insurance etc etc.

the poor are screwed in any system.

[Mr. Perfect]

.

Mp, not clear, you for or against ?

.

Great question croc, normally I am against human being killing other human beings, on a certain level. How ever if state slavers and their masters wish to self suicide out of existence and take their beliefs with them I'm not sure why I should get in the way.

[Endovelico]

The risks of allowing any person to have the right to decide whether another human being lives or dies is such, that we should never permit it. Suicide is another matter. If anyone wants to end his or her life, that's a personal decision which should not be interfered with.

By the way, why do some people who reject euthanasia are in favour of the death penalty?... Isn't the death penalty a form of euthanasia?...

[anderson]

if you donated 12 gauge riot shotguns to the eldery and bedridden in europe they could waste the f*ckers coming to turn their life support off.

maybe bono could do a charity concert.

cannabis sativa, i think mr p is in favour of not giving the power of decision about who lives and dies to the government and would rather it happened as per the context of that persons life decisions.. did they priorities long life and pay for insurance etc etc.

the poor are screwed in any system.

Ah...It would be argued that this is exactly what these laws would do. Take away power from the government to force people to live when they're no longer willing.

[Enki]

This is talking about allowing the patient themselves to make such decisions.

Any other discussion of other people making that choice for you, is off topic. (Though I understand it's more titillating to beat that straw man.)

[monster_gardener]

The risks of allowing any person to have the right to decide whether another human being lives or dies is such, that we should never permit it. Suicide is another matter. If anyone wants to end his or her life, that's a personal decision which should not be interfered with.

By the way, why do some people who reject euthanasia are in favour of the death penalty?... Isn't the death penalty a form of euthanasia?...

Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.

The risks of allowing any person to have the right to decide whether another human being lives or dies is such, that we should never permit it.

AFAIK, there is virtually no way you can stop all Chaos Monkeys from killing other Chaos Monkeys......... **

We are often like Ambulatory Egg Shells Armed with Hammers..

And even the hammers are not that necessary......... One punch properly placed can do it.......

Suicide is another matter. If anyone wants to end his or her life, that's a personal decision which should not be interfered with.

Partial Agreement....

Verbal persuasion is fine.........

Perhaps even restraint once or twice to make sure that it is a considered decision and not insanity temporary ("My boy/grrl friend left me, my life is over") or longer lasting but curable.....

But provided that the means does not harm other humans/Chaos Monkeys*, IMVHO that should be their choice.........

By the way, why do some people who reject euthanasia are in favour of the death penalty?

Perhaps because in some religions, suicide is a mortal sin: self murder without a chance for repentance and forgiveness if the means of death is quick enough.......

While the death penalty often gives time for repentance and forgiveness....

One is not as responsible for what others do to you....

Which may be one reason for suicide by cop besides the fact that it can be harder to "do" oneself.........

Remembering a case where a very moral soldier was manipulated into being the subject of an experimental program rather than be executed.
Not that he feared death so much but because he considered not taking a chance for life would be suicide....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife_ ... _Limits%29

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/ ... 54abf96d9d||||

Isn't the death penalty a form of euthanasia?...

Not necessarily......

Even lethal injection can involve considerable fear and mental anguish.......

Wondering if we should consider using hemlock like the Ancient Athenians did in those few cases where capital punishment might be necessary...

Socrates' death by hemlock seemed about as good as a bad thing like involuntary death can be.........

Coniine paralyzes muscles by blocking the nicotinic receptor on the post-synaptic membrane of the neuromuscular junction causing a flaccid paralysis. This action is similar to that of curare. Symptoms of paralysis occur within a half hour, and death may take several hours. As the central nervous system is not affected the person remains conscious and aware until respiratory paralysis results in cessation of breathing. The muscular paralysis is an ascending flaccid paralysis as the lower limbs are affected first. The person may have a hypoxic convulsion just prior to death but this is greatly disguised by the muscular paralysis and the person may just weakly shudder. The cause of death is lack of oxygen to the brain and heart as a consequence of respiratory paralysis. A poisoned person will recover if artificial ventilation (breathing) is maintained until the toxin is removed from the receptor. Historically this is the poison that killed Socrates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coniine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conium_maculatum


PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

For anyone Considering Suicide Whether or Not the Rainbow is Enough Whether or Not you are Colored or a Girl .........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Colore ... ow_Is_Enuf

Do NOT Do This At Home!

Unless you are certain that you have the true Poison Hemlock, Conium_maculatum, and not the somewhat similar and related Water Hemlock species whose poison produces a Violent Convulsive death....or You Will Regret It For The Rest of Your Life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Hemlock

Also be careful if you or your cat children like to eat game birds or the Angry Birds who have eaten poison hemlock may get their revenge

There have been a number of cases of poisoning in certain regions of Italy due to the consumption of larks and chaffinches, which eat the buds of poison hemlock during April and May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coniine#Pharmacology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_Birds



Also Pigsy People like me need to be careful of Conium's addictive properties.

the alkaloid appears to have an addictive effect: goats, cows and pigs have all shown a preference for conium-containing foliage (up to the point of eventual death) if they survive initial exposure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coniine#Pharmacology

This may be something like eating Fugu/Blowfish in Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu

I do not intend to eat either one if I can avoid it.....



*An interesting case might be someone who owed massive amounts of money and could pay if he/she worked at it....... Should he or she be permitted to suicide with a court approved bankruptcy

**Unless you have a Slap Drone from the Culture for pretty near every Chaos Monkey on Earth.

As mentioned in The Player of Games, the Culture does have the occasional "crime of passion" (as described by an Azadian) and the punishment was to be "slap-droned", or to have a drone assigned to follow the offender and "make sure [they] don't do it again".

[Sparky]

This is talking about allowing the patient themselves to make such decisions.

Any other discussion of other people making that choice for you, is off topic. (Though I understand it's more titillating to beat that straw man.)

Don't you see? These are bad rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference. Mr P et al only like good rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference.

[Enki]

This is talking about allowing the patient themselves to make such decisions.

Any other discussion of other people making that choice for you, is off topic. (Though I understand it's more titillating to beat that straw man.)

Don't you see? These are bad rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference. Mr P et al only like good rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference.

They want hospitals to force people who want to die to continue to live, but refuse to pay for it. What a fucked up unfunded mandate.

Republican Central Planners are the worst kind.

[Doc]

This is talking about allowing the patient themselves to make such decisions.

Any other discussion of other people making that choice for you, is off topic. (Though I understand it's more titillating to beat that straw man.)

Don't you see? These are bad rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference. Mr P et al only like good rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference.

They want hospitals to force people who want to die to continue to live, but refuse to pay for it. What a fucked up unfunded mandate.

Republican Central Planners are the worst kind.

My father had the bill from when I was born from the hospital $109.00 This was without health insurance. Then came medicare, with it's 7000% inflation.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 708AAsJFVs

How much would it cost to give birth without insurance?
Like regularly and with the C-Section?


Well, if baby comes in the parking lot of McDonalds on the way to the hospital (don't laugh, it happens!), that's free.

A homebirth with a midwife, is about $2000. A birthing center birth with a midwife, is about $3000. A hospital normal birth, is about $7000. Add $800 if you want an epidural. A C-Section is about $18,000, IF nothing is wrong with the baby.

Hospital births, you have between 30% and 50% chance of a CSection. It's much faster for the doctor, and makes more money for them, too.

[Enki]

This is talking about allowing the patient themselves to make such decisions.

Any other discussion of other people making that choice for you, is off topic. (Though I understand it's more titillating to beat that straw man.)

Don't you see? These are bad rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference. Mr P et al only like good rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference.

They want hospitals to force people who want to die to continue to live, but refuse to pay for it. What a fucked up unfunded mandate.

Republican Central Planners are the worst kind.

My father had the bill from when I was born from the hospital $109.00 This was without health insurance. Then came medicare, with it's 7000% inflation.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 708AAsJFVs

How much would it cost to give birth without insurance?
Like regularly and with the C-Section?


Well, if baby comes in the parking lot of McDonalds on the way to the hospital (don't laugh, it happens!), that's free.

A homebirth with a midwife, is about $2000. A birthing center birth with a midwife, is about $3000. A hospital normal birth, is about $7000. Add $800 if you want an epidural. A C-Section is about $18,000, IF nothing is wrong with the baby.

Hospital births, you have between 30% and 50% chance of a CSection. It's much faster for the doctor, and makes more money for them, too.

The price of medical care has what to do with having a right to die?

[Zack Morris]

I think he's saying that if we go back to 1930's level of care (or whenever he was born), medical costs would be so low that euthanasia would be unnecessary.

[Doc]

I think he's saying that if we go back to 1930's level of care (or whenever he was born), medical costs would be so low that euthanasia would be unnecessary.

Medicare did not exist until the mid 1960's

[Doc]

This is talking about allowing the patient themselves to make such decisions.

Any other discussion of other people making that choice for you, is off topic. (Though I understand it's more titillating to beat that straw man.)

Don't you see? These are bad rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference. Mr P et al only like good rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference.

They want hospitals to force people who want to die to continue to live, but refuse to pay for it. What a fucked up unfunded mandate.

Republican Central Planners are the worst kind.

My father had the bill from when I was born from the hospital $109.00 This was without health insurance. Then came medicare, with it's 7000% inflation.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 708AAsJFVs

How much would it cost to give birth without insurance?
Like regularly and with the C-Section?


Well, if baby comes in the parking lot of McDonalds on the way to the hospital (don't laugh, it happens!), that's free.

A homebirth with a midwife, is about $2000. A birthing center birth with a midwife, is about $3000. A hospital normal birth, is about $7000. Add $800 if you want an epidural. A C-Section is about $18,000, IF nothing is wrong with the baby.

Hospital births, you have between 30% and 50% chance of a CSection. It's much faster for the doctor, and makes more money for them, too.

The price of medical care has what to do with having a right to die?

If medical care was not so expensive then there would not be the emphasis on doing procedures over results for incremental life extension no matter the quality of life. That would eliminate about 99% of the issue.

[Typhoon]

Socialist Slaughterhouses begin

Mr. P., looks like you posted a quote and link from the wrong article.

[Typhoon]

This is talking about allowing the patient themselves to make such decisions.

Any other discussion of other people making that choice for you, is off topic. (Though I understand it's more titillating to beat that straw man.)

Don't you see? These are bad rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference. Mr P et al only like good rugged individualists who wish to live on their own terms and die free of government interference.

After all, nothing makes one man up than the pain from terminal metastatic bone cancer.

[Mr. Perfect]

Look, i think if we want to really be compassionate Europeans should pay for some mobile trucks to go around to various places of work and be available for people who are having a hard time, or maybe schools, like ice cream trucks going from district to district. That would be some true compassion.

[Enki]

Look, i think if we want to really be compassionate Europeans should pay for some mobile trucks to go around to various places of work and be available for people who are having a hard time, or maybe schools, like ice cream trucks going from district to district. That would be some true compassion.

I think we should make people live forever whether they like it or not.

[Mr. Perfect]

I think we should force people onto government programs and take money from them in exchange for the promise of future benefits and then when they are dependent on those programs we should cut those benefits and accelerate their deaths.

Wait, we already did!

[Typhoon]

Look, i think if we want to really be compassionate Europeans should pay for some mobile trucks to go around to various places of work and be available for people who are having a hard time, or maybe schools, like ice cream trucks going from district to district. That would be some true compassion.

No relation to the linked article.

Such a visceral and irrational fear and hatred of others, in this case Europeans, whom some Merkins perceive to think and do things different than them is one of the best arguments against handguns and other assault weapons.

Never know when a such individuals will "go postal" and decide to take matters into their own hands.

I used to think that General Jack D. Ripper was satire

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but not any more.

[Mr. Perfect]

Actually CS if you were to read what I write, engage in critical thinking rather than rely on stereotypes and movies you will see that I don't think there are that many differences between Europeans and Americans. And that the differences are in other kinds of people.

I think we should force people onto government programs and take money from them in exchange for the promise of future benefits and then when they are dependent on those programs we should cut those benefits and accelerate their deaths.

Wait, we already did!

[Enki]

People live longer than ever. You used to just be illogical, now you are counterfactual.

It's charmingly naive how you think that every situation is a cost-benefit analysis of how much money is involved. Sure, it's about cost versus benefit, but I think it has a lot less to do with money than you think.

[Mr. Perfect]

Nah, just been around longer and more observant. Eg I remember when politicians used to sell ponzi schemes on how bulletproof and caretaking they were, now doing your duty is submitting to an accelerated death. And you're right money has nothing to do with this.