At least 27 die in school shooting in Connecticut | 1

[Typhoon]

. . .

Psychotropic drugs as a causative factor is a hypothesis - a speculative one at this point.

You mean there have been no double blind clinical trials involving SSRI's and Mass shootings. Do you propose such a study is needed before making any conclusions?

I can just see how that would go.... Take a group of Children. Give half SSRIs the other half a placebo. Give all of them guns to take home. See which ones take them the guns to school and kill their classmates.

[/quote]

Interesting proposal, but not one I'm advocating.

As far as I know there has never been a clinical study of these meds and their effects on children. Never. Anyone want to volunteer their kids for such a study?

In every case where the facts are known about anti-depressive(most likely SSRIs) usage, 66 do far, they were present. Medical privacy laws in a number of cases have prevent whether they were involved, or not, from being made public.
http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

• What Drug Date Where Additional
  School Shooting Prozac WITHDRAWAL 2008-02-15 Illinois ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically
  School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 2005-03-24 Minnesota **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage
  School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2001-03-10 Pennsylvania **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School
  School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med 2011-07-11 Alabama **14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student
  School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant 1995-10-12 South Carolina **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself
  School Shooting Med For Depression 2009-03-13 Germany **16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression
  School Hostage Situation Med For Depression 2010-12-15 France **17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage
  School Shooting Plot Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL 2008-08-28 Texas **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack
  School Shooting Anafranil Antidepressant 1988-05-20 Illinois **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self
  School Shooting Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded
  School Stabbings Antidepressants 2001-06-09 Japan **Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med
  School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured
  School Stabbing Med For Depression 2011-10-25 Washington **Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition
  School Shooting Antidepressant 2006-09-30 Colorado **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self
  School Machete Attack Med for Depression 2001-09-26 Pennsylvania **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School
  School Shooting Related Luvox 1993-07-23 Florida **Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported
  School Hostage Situation Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2009-11-09 New York **Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage
  School Shooting Antidepressants 1992-09-20 Texas **Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School
  School Shooting SSRI 2010-02-19 Finland **On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself
  School Shooting Threat Med for Depression* 2004-10-19 New Jersey **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School
  School Shooting Antidepressant? 2007-04-18 Virginia **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech
  School Shooting Antidepressant? 2002-01-17 Virginia **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School
  School Incident/Bizarre Zoloft* 2010-08-22 Australia **School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft
  School/Assault Antidepressant 2009-11-04 California **School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med
  School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 1992-01-30 Michigan **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School
  School Shooting Threats Celexa Antidepressant 2010-01-25 Virginia **Senior in High School Theatens to Kill 4 Classmates: Facebook Involved: Bail Denied
  School Violence/Murder Antidepressants* 1998-05-04 New York **Sheriff's Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School
  School Knifing/Murder Meds For Depression & ADHD 2010-04-28 Massachusetts **Sixteen Year Old Kills 15 Year Old in High School Bathroom in Sept. 2009
  School Stabbing Wellbutrin 2006-12-04 Indiana **Stabbing by 17 Year Old At High School: Charged with Attempted Murder
  School Threat Antidepressants 2007-04-23 Mississippi **Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet
  School Suspension Lexapro Antidepressant 2007-07-28 Arkansas **Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro
  School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-11-07 Finland **Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland
  School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2004-02-09 New York **Student Shoots Teacher in Leg at School
  School Threat Prozac Antidepressant 2008-01-25 Washington **Student Takes Loaded Shotgun & 3 Rifles to School Parking Lot: Plans Suicide
  School Shooting Plot Med For Depression 1998-12-01 Wisconsin **Teen Accused of Plotting to Gun Down Students at School
  School/Assault Zoloft Antidepressant 2006-02-15 Tennessee **Teen Attacks Teacher at School
  School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 1999-04-16 Idaho **Teen Fires Gun in School
  School Hostage Situation Paxil & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-15 Washington **Teen Holds Classmates Hostage with a Gun
  School Hostage Situation Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2006-11-28 North Carolina **Teen Holds Teacher & Student Hostage with Gun
  School Knife Attack Med for Depression 2006-12-06 Indiana **Teen Knife Attacks Fellow Student
  School Massacre Plot Prozac Withdrawal 2011-02-23 Virginia **Teen Sentenced to 12 Years in Prison For Columbine Style Plot
  School Shooting Celexa & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-19 California **Teen Shoots at Classmates in School
  School Shooting Celexa Antidepressant 2006-08-30 North Carolina **Teen Shoots at Two Students: Kills his Father: Celexa Found Among his Personal Effects
  School Shooting Meds For Depression & ADHD 2011-03-18 South Carolina **Teen Shoots School Official: Pipe Bombs Found in Backpack
  School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 2003-05-31 Michigan **Teen Threatens School Shooting: Charge is Terrorism
  School Stand-Off Zoloft Antidepressant 1998-04-13 Idaho **Teen [14 Years Old] in School Holds Police At Bay: Fires Shots
  School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-10-12 Ohio **Teen [14 Years Old] School Shooter Possibly on Antidepressants or In Withdrawal
  School Threat Antidepressants 2008-03-20 Indiana **Teen [16 Years Old] Brings Gun to School: There Is a Lockdown
  School Suicide/Lockdown Med For Depression 2008-02-20 Idaho **Teen [16 Years Old] Kills Self at High School: Lockdown by Police
  School Threats Prozac Antidepressant 1999-10-19 Florida **Teen [16 Years Old] Threatens Classmates With Knife & Fake Explosives
  School Stabbing Med For Depression 2008-02-29 Texas **Teen [17 Year Old GIRL] Stabs Friend & Principal at High School
  School Hostage Situation Prozac/ Paxil Antidepressants 2001-01-18 California **Teen [17 Years Old] Takes Girl Hostage at School: He is Killed by Police
  School Knife Attack Treatment For Depression & Strattera 2009-03-10 Belgium **Three Dead in School Day Care: Two Children & a Caregiver: Happened Jan 23, 2009
  School Shooting Plot Antidepressants 2009-09-22 England **Two English School Boys Plot to Blow Up High School
  School Arson Incidents Paxil 2002-04-12 Michigan **Unusual Personality Change on Paxil Caused 15 Year Old to Set Fires inside High School
  School Bomb Threat Med For Depression 2009-06-29 Australia **Vexed Father Makes Bomb Threat Against Elementary School
  School Violence Antidepressant 2005-11-19 Arizona **Violent 8 Year Old GIRL Handcuffed by Police at School
  School Violence Celexa Antidepressant 2002-01-23 Florida **Violent 8 Year-Old Boy Arrested At School
  School Threat/Lockdown Lexapro* 2008-04-18 California **Violent High School Student Shot to Death on Campus by Police
  School / Child Endangerment Antidepressants 2008-02-27 Canada **Wacky School Bus Driver Goes Berserk: Also Involved Painkillers
  School Violence Paxil 2004-10-23 Washington DC **Young Boy, 10 Year Old, Has Violent Incidents at School
  School Threat Wellbutrin Antidepressant 2007-04-24 Tennessee **Young Boy, 12, Threatens to Shoot Others at School
  School Hostage Situation Med for Depression 2006-03-09 France **Young Ex-Teacher Holds 21 Students Hostage
  School Shooting/Suicide Celexa 2002-10-07 Texas **Young Girl [13 Years Old] Kills Self at School With a Gun
  School Hostage Situation Paxil 2001-10-12 North Carolina **Young Man Holds Three People Hostage in Duke University President's Office
  School Murder Attempt Med For Depression 1995-03-04 California **Young Woman Deliberately Hits 3 Kids with Her Car at Elementary School: Laughed During Attack

. . .

An apparently long list, but it does absolutely nothing to establish causation. Nada. Zip, zero, zen zen.

The following lists are required: all combinations of the three factors

1/ diagnosed or not diagnosed with mental illness;

2/ receiving treatment or not receiving treatment with drugs;

3/ engaged or did not engage in acts of violence.

Also grouped by age, gender, etc.

[Doc]

. . .

Psychotropic drugs as a causative factor is a hypothesis - a speculative one at this point.

You mean there have been no double blind clinical trials involving SSRI's and Mass shootings. Do you propose such a study is needed before making any conclusions?

I can just see how that would go.... Take a group of Children. Give half SSRIs the other half a placebo. Give all of them guns to take home. See which ones take them the guns to school and kill their classmates.

Interesting proposal, but not one I'm advocating.

I didn't figure you were.

As far as I know there has never been a clinical study of these meds and their effects on children. Never. Anyone want to volunteer their kids for such a study?

In every case where the facts are known about anti-depressive(most likely SSRIs) usage, 66 do far, they were present. Medical privacy laws in a number of cases have prevent whether they were involved, or not, from being made public.
http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

• What Drug Date Where Additional
  School Shooting Prozac WITHDRAWAL 2008-02-15 Illinois ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically
  School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 2005-03-24 Minnesota **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage
  School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2001-03-10 Pennsylvania **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School
  School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med 2011-07-11 Alabama **14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student
  School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant 1995-10-12 South Carolina **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself
  School Shooting Med For Depression 2009-03-13 Germany **16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression
  School Hostage Situation Med For Depression 2010-12-15 France **17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage
  School Shooting Plot Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL 2008-08-28 Texas **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack
  School Shooting Anafranil Antidepressant 1988-05-20 Illinois **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self
  School Shooting Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded
  School Stabbings Antidepressants 2001-06-09 Japan **Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med
  School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured
  School Stabbing Med For Depression 2011-10-25 Washington **Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition
  School Shooting Antidepressant 2006-09-30 Colorado **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self
  School Machete Attack Med for Depression 2001-09-26 Pennsylvania **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School
  School Shooting Related Luvox 1993-07-23 Florida **Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported
  School Hostage Situation Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2009-11-09 New York **Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage
  School Shooting Antidepressants 1992-09-20 Texas **Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School
  School Shooting SSRI 2010-02-19 Finland **On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself
  School Shooting Threat Med for Depression* 2004-10-19 New Jersey **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School
  School Shooting Antidepressant? 2007-04-18 Virginia **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech
  School Shooting Antidepressant? 2002-01-17 Virginia **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School
  School Incident/Bizarre Zoloft* 2010-08-22 Australia **School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft
  School/Assault Antidepressant 2009-11-04 California **School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med
  School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 1992-01-30 Michigan **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School
  School Shooting Threats Celexa Antidepressant 2010-01-25 Virginia **Senior in High School Theatens to Kill 4 Classmates: Facebook Involved: Bail Denied
  School Violence/Murder Antidepressants* 1998-05-04 New York **Sheriff's Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School
  School Knifing/Murder Meds For Depression & ADHD 2010-04-28 Massachusetts **Sixteen Year Old Kills 15 Year Old in High School Bathroom in Sept. 2009
  School Stabbing Wellbutrin 2006-12-04 Indiana **Stabbing by 17 Year Old At High School: Charged with Attempted Murder
  School Threat Antidepressants 2007-04-23 Mississippi **Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet
  School Suspension Lexapro Antidepressant 2007-07-28 Arkansas **Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro
  School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-11-07 Finland **Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland
  School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2004-02-09 New York **Student Shoots Teacher in Leg at School
  School Threat Prozac Antidepressant 2008-01-25 Washington **Student Takes Loaded Shotgun & 3 Rifles to School Parking Lot: Plans Suicide
  School Shooting Plot Med For Depression 1998-12-01 Wisconsin **Teen Accused of Plotting to Gun Down Students at School
  School/Assault Zoloft Antidepressant 2006-02-15 Tennessee **Teen Attacks Teacher at School
  School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 1999-04-16 Idaho **Teen Fires Gun in School
  School Hostage Situation Paxil & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-15 Washington **Teen Holds Classmates Hostage with a Gun
  School Hostage Situation Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2006-11-28 North Carolina **Teen Holds Teacher & Student Hostage with Gun
  School Knife Attack Med for Depression 2006-12-06 Indiana **Teen Knife Attacks Fellow Student
  School Massacre Plot Prozac Withdrawal 2011-02-23 Virginia **Teen Sentenced to 12 Years in Prison For Columbine Style Plot
  School Shooting Celexa & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-19 California **Teen Shoots at Classmates in School
  School Shooting Celexa Antidepressant 2006-08-30 North Carolina **Teen Shoots at Two Students: Kills his Father: Celexa Found Among his Personal Effects
  School Shooting Meds For Depression & ADHD 2011-03-18 South Carolina **Teen Shoots School Official: Pipe Bombs Found in Backpack
  School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 2003-05-31 Michigan **Teen Threatens School Shooting: Charge is Terrorism
  School Stand-Off Zoloft Antidepressant 1998-04-13 Idaho **Teen [14 Years Old] in School Holds Police At Bay: Fires Shots
  School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-10-12 Ohio **Teen [14 Years Old] School Shooter Possibly on Antidepressants or In Withdrawal
  School Threat Antidepressants 2008-03-20 Indiana **Teen [16 Years Old] Brings Gun to School: There Is a Lockdown
  School Suicide/Lockdown Med For Depression 2008-02-20 Idaho **Teen [16 Years Old] Kills Self at High School: Lockdown by Police
  School Threats Prozac Antidepressant 1999-10-19 Florida **Teen [16 Years Old] Threatens Classmates With Knife & Fake Explosives
  School Stabbing Med For Depression 2008-02-29 Texas **Teen [17 Year Old GIRL] Stabs Friend & Principal at High School
  School Hostage Situation Prozac/ Paxil Antidepressants 2001-01-18 California **Teen [17 Years Old] Takes Girl Hostage at School: He is Killed by Police
  School Knife Attack Treatment For Depression & Strattera 2009-03-10 Belgium **Three Dead in School Day Care: Two Children & a Caregiver: Happened Jan 23, 2009
  School Shooting Plot Antidepressants 2009-09-22 England **Two English School Boys Plot to Blow Up High School
  School Arson Incidents Paxil 2002-04-12 Michigan **Unusual Personality Change on Paxil Caused 15 Year Old to Set Fires inside High School
  School Bomb Threat Med For Depression 2009-06-29 Australia **Vexed Father Makes Bomb Threat Against Elementary School
  School Violence Antidepressant 2005-11-19 Arizona **Violent 8 Year Old GIRL Handcuffed by Police at School
  School Violence Celexa Antidepressant 2002-01-23 Florida **Violent 8 Year-Old Boy Arrested At School
  School Threat/Lockdown Lexapro* 2008-04-18 California **Violent High School Student Shot to Death on Campus by Police
  School / Child Endangerment Antidepressants 2008-02-27 Canada **Wacky School Bus Driver Goes Berserk: Also Involved Painkillers
  School Violence Paxil 2004-10-23 Washington DC **Young Boy, 10 Year Old, Has Violent Incidents at School
  School Threat Wellbutrin Antidepressant 2007-04-24 Tennessee **Young Boy, 12, Threatens to Shoot Others at School
  School Hostage Situation Med for Depression 2006-03-09 France **Young Ex-Teacher Holds 21 Students Hostage
  School Shooting/Suicide Celexa 2002-10-07 Texas **Young Girl [13 Years Old] Kills Self at School With a Gun
  School Hostage Situation Paxil 2001-10-12 North Carolina **Young Man Holds Three People Hostage in Duke University President's Office
  School Murder Attempt Med For Depression 1995-03-04 California **Young Woman Deliberately Hits 3 Kids with Her Car at Elementary School: Laughed During Attack

. . .

An apparently long list, but it does absolutely nothing to establish causation. Nada. Zip, zero, zen zen.

The following lists are required: all combinations of the three factors

1/ diagnosed or not diagnosed with mental illness;

2/ receiving treatment or not receiving treatment with drugs;

3/ engaged or did not engage in acts of violence.

Also grouped by age, gender, etc.

First 2) All of the above were given anti-depressants of one form or another

1) Presumably but not certain anyone given anti-depressant has a mental problem

3) All of the above at least contemplated violence to the point the authorities became involved.

IE I don't see where your three point have any validity.

Also I should say this. There are no studies to establish causation for various reasons.

1)As I pointed on a clinical double blind study directly relating to school violence and SSRIs is not going to happen.

2)SSRIs have been around for decades but were not generally prescribed to children until the 1990's (which happens to be when the school violence of mass killings started.)

3)No clinical studies of the effects on children have ever been made. Mostly due to the fact that parents are simply not going to give permission for the children to be subject to medical experimentation.

4)These drugs literally generate 100's of billions in $$$ for Big Pharma

5)There has been a provable history of Drug companies doing high abusive and illegal things to push these drugs.

6) There have even been calls for these drugs to be forcibly given to individuals deemed needing them by the authorities. When there is a history of psychiatric authorities being paid remuneration for prescribing these drugs, by the drug companies that are highly profiting by their sale.

7)There is a long history of Drugs studies showing negative or no positive effects of drugs in general being suppressed.

Now I should also say that I am sure some individuals do need medication and even these drugs do help adults with mental illness cope. My primary objection here is that they are given to children, many of whom exhibit violent behavior that was pretty much unheard of prior to these drugs being widely subscribed to children. There is a most definite effect since the drugs have been generally prescribed/ Guns were widely available well previous to the violence in schools over the last two decades. Anyone not willing to at least consider the effect of these drugs is ignoring the potential original cause for the violence for politics or otherwise. There is noting rational about that.

Now you can say there is no proof of causation established but you are not addressing how causation could be established to your satisfaction.

If you can not make that statement about how causation could be established to your satisfaction, then simply saying there isn't anything established is meaningless in the face of the evidence I presented. IE I have a long list, among many many other things. You have got nothing to counter it.

By the same standard you give there is no causation established that these drugs actually help the children they are given to. Doctors prescribe these drugs to children as the experiment without any controls to establish if they actually do more good than harm.

Given the evidence(and there is one hell of a lot of it) of abuse by Big Pharma is pushing these drugs by paying off doctors to prescribe them(AS i recall Pfizer was levied the largest fine in history $2.3 billion for pushing its drugs illegally). As well as the huge profits made from them. The bias as far as I am concerned is against the drugs being given to children.

It is up to Big Pharma that is so highly profiting from them and the doctors that prescribe them to children to prove that they not only do no harm but that they actually help children before they are given out wholesale to children.

[Hoosiernorm]

Doc

Did any of them eat at McDonalds? McDonalds makes a lot of money and the food is full of fat and sodium. There are no studies on either the causation or link between sodium and mass murder but since both are occurring and McDonalds makes a lot of money doing this then it could be inferred that McDonalds causes mass murder.

Do you get what Typhoon is asking for now.

[Doc]

Doc

Did any of them eat at McDonalds? McDonalds makes a lot of money and the food is full of fat and sodium. There are no studies on either the causation or link between sodium and mass murder but since both are occurring and McDonalds makes a lot of money doing this then it could be inferred that McDonalds causes mass murder.

Do you get what Typhoon is asking for now.

I understand exactly what CS is asking for. Probably better than you do. McDonald's does not sell chemicals that are for directly effecting the brain and thought. They sell what some claim is food, not drugs for treating serious medical conditions. Coke no longer puts cocaine in the formula. Imagine if they still did?

What I am saying is that all the money players have extra cards up their sleeves. There is well more than enough evidence to question what is going on with these drugs and their possible link to the violence of all of those that are taking them. Enough that in my opinion as well as others ignoring it is part of the problem.

Conversely, there is no causation shown at all that these drugs are of overall benefit to children. NONE.

By the same standard there is no causation of guns being available and violence in schools. Look at the list I posted. Clearly lack of a gun being present does not prevent the violence Just one example from that list: "School Murder Attempt Med For Depression 1995-03-04 California **Young Woman Deliberately Hits 3 Kids with Her Car at Elementary School: Laughed During Attack"



There are some pretty serious abuses by Big Pharma concerning the drugs they sell under patent.

Again I am not saying these drugs are all snake oil. I am saying that there are some pretty damn serious questions about the way they are being used and the possible relation to the violence that has occurred in schools since they were widely prescribed to children.

As far as causation goes, being a Psychiatrist must be a pretty tough job given that 99.9% of the effect of what they do with patients happens outside of their offices. For the vast majority of the time, they only know what they are told. Told by people that in many cases through their illness or as side effect of the medications they are taking are unable to even recognize nor remember what to tell the doctor. For all these doctors know, by the same standards of causation, flipping a coin or prescribing a drug leads to medical miracles.

I am not surprised to discover that the problem goes well beyond SSRIs either:

http://davidhealy.org/welcome-to-data-based-medicine/

Welcome to Data Based Medicine
January 12, 2012 9 Comments
Adverse drug events are now the fourth leading cause of death in hospitals.

It’s a reasonable bet they are an even greater cause of death in non-hospital settings where there is no one to monitor things going wrong and no one to intervene to save a life. In mental health for instance drug-induced problems are the leading cause of death — and these deaths happen in community rather than hospital settings.

There is also another drug crisis — we are failing to discover new drugs.

Companies are sawing off the branch on which they are sitting.
Doctors are failing to recognize the most treatable cause of death today.

These two crises may be linked in that detecting adverse events on drugs is still the best way to discover a new use for a drug, and new drugs. But there are fewer and fewer incentives for anyone to recognize adverse events. Companies are blocking efforts to detect problems and in so doing are sawing off the branch on which they are sitting. Doctors are neutering themselves by failing to recognize and treat what should be the most recognizable threat to life and moreover the most eminently treatable cause of death in the world today.
Part of the problem is cultural

A century ago Freud drew our attention to the many ways in which speech could be biased. Half a century ago clinical trials drew our attention to the biases that both doctors and patients bring to therapy. Just as Freud’s insights once made it difficult for anyone to accept things that were said at face value, so clinical trials and evidence-based medicine have created a culture that makes it increasingly difficult for doctors or patients to spot what is right in front of our own eyes. Ultimately Freud ended up being used to explain away or deny claims of abuse that we now know were happening, and in much the same way companies and doctors are now using trial data, or the lack of it, as a drunk uses a lamppost — for support rather than illumination. Just as a point came at which claims of abuse could no longer be denied, we may be nearing a point where treatment-induced problems will have to be recognized.

[Hoosiernorm]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

[Simple Minded]

Then it turns out tickle me Elmo didn't exactly mean what everyone thought.

Excellent Doc! Still most parents do seem to enjoy seeing their kids laugh....

[Simple Minded]

The mass shootings in schools have much more to do with Mental illness Big Pharma and Big $$$. I think it is criminal. But I don't see anyone really wanting to talk about that.

I remember someone stating "They used to say boys will be boys, not they say boys will be medicated."

Has a lot to do with lazy people, cultrual collapse, and parents who find it easier in the short term to drug their children rather than civilize them.

IMSMO, the big bucks available in the collusion between govt and the drug companies is an effect, not a cause.

[Doc]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

Right. Now I know what you don't believe.

Lets take a step back then. Do you believe there are any problems with these drugs at all?

[Doc]

The mass shootings in schools have much more to do with Mental illness Big Pharma and Big $$$. I think it is criminal. But I don't see anyone really wanting to talk about that.

I remember someone stating "They used to say boys will be boys, not they say boys will be medicated."

Has a lot to do with lazy people, cultrual collapse, and parents who find it easier in the short term to drug their children rather than civilize them.

IMSMO, the big bucks available in the collusion between govt and the drug companies is an effect, not a cause.

By what the parents say in this documentary is that they were pressured to give their kids meds

http://video.pbs.org/video/1316921025/

Rather Ironic that teachers in drug free / gun free schools are pushing drugs.

[Simple Minded]

I am not surprised to discover that the problem goes well beyond SSRIs either:

http://davidhealy.org/welcome-to-data-based-medicine/

Welcome to Data Based Medicine
January 12, 2012 9 Comments
Adverse drug events are now the fourth leading cause of death in hospitals.

A century ago Freud drew our attention to the many ways in which speech could be biased. Half a century ago clinical trials drew our attention to the biases that both doctors and patients bring to therapy. Just as Freud’s insights once made it difficult for anyone to accept things that were said at face value, so clinical trials and evidence-based medicine have created a culture that makes it increasingly difficult for doctors or patients to spot what is right in front of our own eyes. Ultimately Freud ended up being used to explain away or deny claims of abuse that we now know were happening, and in much the same way companies and doctors are now using trial data, or the lack of it, as a drunk uses a lamppost — for support rather than illumination. Just as a point came at which claims of abuse could no longer be denied, we may be nearing a point where treatment-induced problems will have to be recognized.

Excellent paragraph. Lots of people use lack of data to delude themselves that what one would think is self-evident, does not exist.

[Simple Minded]

The mass shootings in schools have much more to do with Mental illness Big Pharma and Big $$$. I think it is criminal. But I don't see anyone really wanting to talk about that.

I remember someone stating "They used to say boys will be boys, not they say boys will be medicated."

Has a lot to do with lazy people, cultrual collapse, and parents who find it easier in the short term to drug their children rather than civilize them.

IMSMO, the big bucks available in the collusion between govt and the drug companies is an effect, not a cause.

By what the parents say in this documentary is that they were pressured to give their kids meds

http://video.pbs.org/video/1316921025/

Rather Ironic that teachers in drug free / gun free schools are pushing drugs.

I have no doubt that these drugs are being pushed by those who profit from selling them. I also have no doubt that in prosperous, optimistic times, people believe in magic pills, sub prime financing, free lunches and square circles.

which came first, the desire of parents that child rearing should be easy, or the promise of magic pills to magically transform typical youthful behavior into civilized adult behavior?

I think it more karmic than ironic that teachers and school administrators in gun free/war against drugs zones/mentalities are pushing drugs onto children and demanding more militant control. Be careful what you wish for.

Interesting that you say this problem started in the early 1990s. I have often told foreigners who ask about how American culture has changed that one observation I have made is prior to 1980, you rarely saw parents performing mundane household maintenance tasks, the kids were doing them. Post 1990, you rarely saw children performing mundane household maintenance tasks, the parents were doing them.

Big increase in the zeitgeist of "let them be children" in the late 80s, early 90s. I think it is very possible that lack of discipline and training (the idea that life is mostly leisure) has led to a increase in teenage anxiety or lack of teenage confidence in dealing with the routine aspects of life.

Add to that the instantaneous communication between children/teens (due to modern tech) and less interaction between children/teens and adults, which increases peer pressure and perspectives........ and who would be surprised to find that young people today find life more overwhelming/hopeless than did previous generations?

Why should an adult be surprised that these kids prefer to live in virtual reality rather than reality?

"The surest way to make life hard for your children is to strive to make it easy for them."

[monster_gardener]

The mass shootings in schools have much more to do with Mental illness Big Pharma and Big $$$. I think it is criminal. But I don't see anyone really wanting to talk about that.

I remember someone stating "They used to say boys will be boys, not they say boys will be medicated."

Has a lot to do with lazy people, cultrual collapse, and parents who find it easier in the short term to drug their children rather than civilize them.

IMSMO, the big bucks available in the collusion between govt and the drug companies is an effect, not a cause.

Thank you Much for your post, Simple Minded.

I remember someone stating "They used to say boys will be boys, not they say boys will be medicated."

IMHO this is may be another problem with schools....... they expect boyz to act like stereotypical girls....... sit still and be quiet.........

Good skills but not the nature of many young boyz....... and some grrlz too...

May be a big reason why the school are pushing drugs..........

Based on what I have seen locally with some of younger generation still in Elemental School , at a minimum they need more breaks and recess where they can blow, dig, flame and splash off excess energy so that they don't get sent home with yellows & reds on their behavior card for bad deportment which can be as little as jumping around while waiting in line.....

And more physical fun classes: sports and physical skills..........

Not just all cram for the exams that get schools money and trophies......

These suggestions are for kids who want/need it....... If someone wants to read during recess, let them do that too as long as they aren't causing "problems".......

[Hoosiernorm]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

Right. Now I know what you don't believe.

Lets take a step back then. Do you believe there are any problems with these drugs at all?

You have a group of individuals whom are known to suffer from any number of mental health issues. Some of these individuals take drugs that are within the SSRI drug family and you have others who suffer from mental health difficulties and do not take an SSRI drug.

Which one is more likely to commit a homicide ? Is there a significant difference in the homicide rates of either group? What causes someone to commit a homicide that is not already within either group? Are those murders committed by people who are suffering from mental illness but have not been diagnosed? Is a person who would commit a homicide considered within the normal or healthy range of acceptable mental health? That's what I am asking

[Enki]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

Right. Now I know what you don't believe.

Lets take a step back then. Do you believe there are any problems with these drugs at all?

You have a group of individuals whom are known to suffer from any number of mental health issues. Some of these individuals take drugs that are within the SSRI drug family and you have others who suffer from mental health difficulties and do not take an SSRI drug.

Which one is more likely to commit a homicide ? Is there a significant difference in the homicide rates of either group? What causes someone to commit a homicide that is not already within either group? Are those murders committed by people who are suffering from mental illness but have not been diagnosed? Is a person who would commit a homicide considered within the normal or healthy range of acceptable mental health? That's what I am asking

We could also look at the incidence of mass murder before and after these drugs. Correlation not being causation and all of that, but this is a dangerous and difficult to study application of our current methods, since one could easily dismiss them as being troubled individuals in the first place. But it seems to me that school shootings really started happening after kids started getting prescribed powerful chemicals for normal childhood issues.

[Doc]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

Right. Now I know what you don't believe.

Lets take a step back then. Do you believe there are any problems with these drugs at all?

You have a group of individuals whom are known to suffer from any number of mental health issues. Some of these individuals take drugs that are within the SSRI drug family and you have others who suffer from mental health difficulties and do not take an SSRI drug.

Which one is more likely to commit a homicide ? Is there a significant difference in the homicide rates of either group? What causes someone to commit a homicide that is not already within either group? Are those murders committed by people who are suffering from mental illness but have not been diagnosed? Is a person who would commit a homicide considered within the normal or healthy range of acceptable mental health? That's what I am asking

As I said before the list I presented is where use of Anti-depressants or not is known. In the US all case where it is known if these drugs were being taken the answer is they are were.

AS CS said it is a long list. It shows 100% usage in the US in known cases. So in the cases of these mass murders or attempted mass murders that are known there is no other group involved. While that is not conclusive it is pretty damning. And there are hardly any questions being asked. Just look at the commercials on the nightly news and it is pretty clear why the MSM doesn't want to talk about it.

Differentiations I would make is that apparently many children are given these drugs that don't really need them. Drug companies have invented mental illness that they can sell drugs to medicate. That is what mass marketers do. Remember "Ring around the collar" "Ring around the collar"? If you don't remember - it was a terrible ailment from the 1970's that was treated with phosphates and bleach.

At the very least, with or without counting potential mass murder, the system that approves what drugs can be used for what is thoroughly corrupt.

Again watch this video from PBS

http://video.pbs.org/video/1316921025/

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

Guns sells exploding

what does it mean ?

it means, Americans are expecting there will be firefight

what firefight ?

Probably an "American Spring" sort of thing

all elements for an "American Spring" in place .. poverty escalating, vicious right demanding tax reduction instead of increase .. America's (economic AND military) importance in the world diminishing rapidly .. moral values fast tracking into toilet and and and

can't see any other reason for American public arming so heavily .. China or Iran 4sure not going to invade neither Islam overrun America

Another "Rodney King" spark will set everything in motion

Lord , have mercy

Amen


.

[Doc]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

Right. Now I know what you don't believe.

Lets take a step back then. Do you believe there are any problems with these drugs at all?

You have a group of individuals whom are known to suffer from any number of mental health issues. Some of these individuals take drugs that are within the SSRI drug family and you have others who suffer from mental health difficulties and do not take an SSRI drug.

Which one is more likely to commit a homicide ? Is there a significant difference in the homicide rates of either group? What causes someone to commit a homicide that is not already within either group? Are those murders committed by people who are suffering from mental illness but have not been diagnosed? Is a person who would commit a homicide considered within the normal or healthy range of acceptable mental health? That's what I am asking

We could also look at the incidence of mass murder before and after these drugs. Correlation not being causation and all of that, but this is a dangerous and difficult to study application of our current methods, since one could easily dismiss them as being troubled individuals in the first place. But it seems to me that school shootings really started happening after kids started getting prescribed powerful chemicals for normal childhood issues.

Exactly. There may be another cause present. But the number one suspect is use of these drugs. As you say it is very easy to write it off by the killers are troubled individuals in the first place. But that still does not explain the epidemic of mass schools killings in the last couple of decades that did not happen before that.

[monster_gardener]

.

Guns sells exploding

what does it mean ?

it means, Americans are expecting there will be firefight

what firefight ?

Probably an "American Spring" sort of thing

all elements for an "American Spring" in place .. poverty escalating, vicious right demanding tax reduction instead of increase .. America's (economic AND military) importance in the world diminishing rapidly .. moral values fast tracking into toilet and and and

can't see any other reason for American public arming so heavily .. China or Iran 4sure not going to invade neither Islam overrun America

Another "Rodney King" spark will set everything in motion

Lord , have mercy

Amen


.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

what firefight ?

Probably an "American Spring" sort of thing

That is one possible reason/fear so IMHO you are partially right.

can't see any other reason for American public arming so heavily ..

Here are 3 reasons to start........

* Likely to be harder to get guns in the future........ probably at a minimum more BureaucRatic rules..........

* Given the above, guns are likely to be more expensive.........

* Given the above, if you got/get in earlier on the boom/bubble, guns might be a good investment..........

There may be more but I gotta go.......*

*The Moon may be up and visible early today during daylight hours.........

Want to get the March of the 10,000 in before observation time even though I know this Sounds Strange

Like I did yesterday

[Enki]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

Right. Now I know what you don't believe.

Lets take a step back then. Do you believe there are any problems with these drugs at all?

You have a group of individuals whom are known to suffer from any number of mental health issues. Some of these individuals take drugs that are within the SSRI drug family and you have others who suffer from mental health difficulties and do not take an SSRI drug.

Which one is more likely to commit a homicide ? Is there a significant difference in the homicide rates of either group? What causes someone to commit a homicide that is not already within either group? Are those murders committed by people who are suffering from mental illness but have not been diagnosed? Is a person who would commit a homicide considered within the normal or healthy range of acceptable mental health? That's what I am asking

We could also look at the incidence of mass murder before and after these drugs. Correlation not being causation and all of that, but this is a dangerous and difficult to study application of our current methods, since one could easily dismiss them as being troubled individuals in the first place. But it seems to me that school shootings really started happening after kids started getting prescribed powerful chemicals for normal childhood issues.

Exactly. There may be another cause present. But the number one suspect is use of these drugs. As you say it is very easy to write it off by the killers are troubled individuals in the first place. But that still does not explain the epidemic of mass schools killings in the last couple of decades that did not happen before that.

I think that anyone who looks for singular causes for human behavior is an durian. But I know a guy who blew his brains out with a revolver, where it made no sense at all. He was prescribed some anti-psychotic and the last thing anyone had heard him say was a rant about how all of his artistic creativity was gone, and that without it, he had nothing.

[Doc]

Ex-Sandy Hook teacher: Lanza was sweet little boy
By BROCK VERGAKIS, Associated Press
Updated 12:57 pm, Sunday, December 23, 2012

REDDING, Conn. (AP) — A former teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School says she remembers the gunman who killed 26 people at the school as a smart, sweet boy in her second-grade class.

Carole MacInnes (MAC'-IN'-ness) says Adam Lanza did not require extra academic attention and he acted normal socially. She says she met his mother during parent-teacher conferences twice, but never his father.

The retired teacher said Sunday that Lanza was a gentle soul and she can't imagine what caused him to want to kill. She never saw him after the second grade.

The 20-year-old Lanza shot and killed his mother before slaughtering 20 children and six adults at the school Dec. 14 and then committing suicide.

MacInnes first confirmed to The Washington Post that Lanza was in her class at Sandy Hook.

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/crime/art ... 142198.php

[Doc]

Exactly. There may be another cause present. But the number one suspect is use of these drugs. As you say it is very easy to write it off by the killers are troubled individuals in the first place. But that still does not explain the epidemic of mass schools killings in the last couple of decades that did not happen before that.

I think that anyone who looks for singular causes for human behavior is an durian. But I know a guy who blew his brains out with a revolver, where it made no sense at all. He was prescribed some anti-psychotic and the last thing anyone had heard him say was a rant about how all of his artistic creativity was gone, and that without it, he had nothing.

I know of several stories about side effects of these drugs. Lack of empathy in people that previously exhibited an abundance of it before they went on medication being something I have personally seen in people. Lack of creativity is something that has been well noted for a long time.

Here is the list of recognized side effects. I have highlighted the behavioral ones:

Adverse effects(of SSRIs)

General side effects are mostly present during the first 1–4 weeks while the body adapts to the drug (with the exception of sexual side effects, which tend to occur later in treatment). In fact, it often takes 6–8 weeks for the drug to begin reaching its full potential (the slow onset is considered a downside to treatment with SSRIs). Almost all SSRIs are known to cause one or more of these symptoms:

anhedonia
apathy
nausea/vomiting
drowsiness or somnolence
headache (very common as a short-term side effect)
bruxism
tinnitus
extremely vivid or strange dreams
dizziness
fatigue
mydriasis (pupil dilation)
urinary retention
changes in appetite
insomnia and/or changes in sleep
excessive diarrhea
weight loss/gain (measured by a change in bodyweight of 7 pounds)
increased risk of bone fractures and injuries
changes in sexual behaviour (see the next section)
increased feelings of depression and anxiety (which may sometimes provoke panic attacks)
mania and psychotic disorders
tremors (and other symptoms of Parkinsonism in vulnerable elderly patients)[16]
autonomic dysfunction including orthostatic hypotension, increased or reduced sweating
akathisia
renal impairment
Restless legs syndrome
suicidal ideation (thoughts of suicide)
photosensitivity[17]
Paresthesia
dissociative disorders, cognitive disorders and loss of contact with reality
Syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone hypersecretion

Many side effects disappear after the adaptation phase, when the antidepressant effects begin to come to prominence. However, despite being called general, the side effects and their durations are highly individual and drug-specific. Usually the treatment is begun with a small dose to see how the patient's body reacts to the drug, after that either the dose can be adjusted (e.g. Prozac in the UK is begun at a 20 mg dose, and then adjusted as necessary to 40 mg or 60 mg). Should the drug prove ineffective, or the side effects intolerable to the patient, another common route is to switch treatment to either another SSRI, or an SNRI.[18]

Mania or hypomania is a possible side effect. Users with some type of bipolar disorder are at a much higher risk, however SSRI-induced mania in patients previously diagnosed with unipolar depression can trigger a bipolar episode; however, according to DSM IV-TR, the diagnosis of bipolar disorder requires that the individuals symptoms must not stem from medication side effects, toxins, drug abuse, or another general medical condition.

[monster_gardener]

Doc please, the amount of homicides caused by people who have not had any contact with SSRI's would suggest that as a control group the SSRI's had either little or no effect on the behavior of those who take them. You can't have your data both ways

Right. Now I know what you don't believe.

Lets take a step back then. Do you believe there are any problems with these drugs at all?

You have a group of individuals whom are known to suffer from any number of mental health issues. Some of these individuals take drugs that are within the SSRI drug family and you have others who suffer from mental health difficulties and do not take an SSRI drug.

Which one is more likely to commit a homicide ? Is there a significant difference in the homicide rates of either group? What causes someone to commit a homicide that is not already within either group? Are those murders committed by people who are suffering from mental illness but have not been diagnosed? Is a person who would commit a homicide considered within the normal or healthy range of acceptable mental health? That's what I am asking

We could also look at the incidence of mass murder before and after these drugs. Correlation not being causation and all of that, but this is a dangerous and difficult to study application of our current methods, since one could easily dismiss them as being troubled individuals in the first place. But it seems to me that school shootings really started happening after kids started getting prescribed powerful chemicals for normal childhood issues.

Exactly. There may be another cause present. But the number one suspect is use of these drugs. As you say it is very easy to write it off by the killers are troubled individuals in the first place. But that still does not explain the epidemic of mass schools killings in the last couple of decades that did not happen before that.

I think that anyone who looks for singular causes for human behavior is an durian. But I know a guy who blew his brains out with a revolver, where it made no sense at all. He was prescribed some anti-psychotic and the last thing anyone had heard him say was a rant about how all of his artistic creativity was gone, and that without it, he had nothing.

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Tinker.

Remembering how at One Station of the Black Gang , we had one gang leader , an XO, who was on Prozac.......

There was some joking about how he might go postal someday.....

Not that the biker/skull motif he used did much to dispel that.......

Quite a family man though...

Absolutely devoted to his wife.........

And as time went by the tattoos got friendlier......

Skulls were re-done into the faces of family members......

[Demon of Undoing]

Now these idiots are bitching about magazine capacity in re the AWB. Don't bother. A main point of ANY magazine- fed weapon is the speed with which one can recharge the weapon. Ten round, thirty round, hundred round, its irrelevant.

goV-Y5eu2ro

A few points:

This is at my home range. I can smell the pines.

Shaking the weapon? Come on, gimme a freakin' break; mortar the thing.

This will lead to the inevitable conclusion: well, for the sake of the children, we need to ban anything magazine fed.

Problem is, you can do the same with even a 130 year old- technology revolver.


aulxNjoFoOk

Well, maybe we can outlaw it all the way to black powder guns.


I wish the left would just be honest; admit that the goal is total disarmament, per an extension of Westphalia. Let's go ahead and get it on. It's the age of Men , not of Man.

[Skin Job]

Those who get caught up in arguments regarding the type and capacity of modern weapons should be mindful that the muzzle loader was the assault weapon of its day, anyone who doubts this need only reflect that average citizens took such weapons in hand and with them defeated the most powerful military in the world.

[noddy]

This will lead to the inevitable conclusion: well, for the sake of the children, we need to ban anything magazine fed.

i suggest starting on those nourished by better homes and gardens, cleo or fhm, we can move onto the others on a case by case basis.