Does America have a "gun culture"?

[YMix]

Long term? Is the United States' model the way civilized society must inevitably tend?

Inevitably? No.

[Marcus]

Long term? Is the United States' model the way civilized society must inevitably tend?

Inevitably? No.

But why not? Given human nature and the ever-increasing urbanization of the world's population, why mightn't carrying a gun be the most efficient means of social harmony?


How does society move beyond an increasing need for self-protection against nut-cases?

[YMix]

But why not?

Why did parts of your country develop a gun culture? Are the factors that favored this path present everywhere else in the world? What other cultural modifiers are involved when considering the possible development of a similar culture in another country?

Your post basically means: every country in the world is like my country, every people in the world is like my people. You should know better than to say that.

[Typhoon]

Long term? Is the United States' model the way civilized society must inevitably tend?

Inevitably? No.

But why not? Given human nature and the ever-increasing urbanization of the world's population, why mightn't carrying a gun be the most efficient means of social harmony?

How does society move beyond an increasing need for self-protection against nut-cases?

Canonical counter-example: Tokyo

Largest city in the world in terms of population. Very high density relative to, say, N Am cities.

About 1/3 of Japan lives in the Kanto Plain that includes Tokyo and Yokohama.

Certainly no lack of "nut cases."

However,

US: 3.2 homicides by gun per 100,000 people

Japan: 0.02 homicides by gun per 100,000 people

The point is there are many different way for societies for organize themselves.

The downside of the Japanese way is social pressure and onerous obligations leading to suicide.

The downside of the American way is alienation and paranoia leading to homicide.

[Marcus]

But why not?

Why did parts of your country develop a gun culture? Are the factors that favored this path present everywhere else in the world? What other cultural modifiers are involved when considering the possible development of a similar culture in another country?

Your post basically means: every country in the world is like my country, every people in the world is like my people. You should know better than to say that.

Sorry . . didn't make myself clear. I'm only asking what's to prevent civilization, particularly big cities, from following America's lead where firearms are used for self-defense? Granted Americans have a particular fondness for guns in that regard and others, snd more and more city folks seem to be relying more on guns and less on police as a means of deterring urban crime. Would other countries follow suit if guns were more readily available? Will other countries follow suit and demand more access to guns?

Or, on the other side of the coins, how might Americans become less enamored of guns?

[YMix]

Would other countries follow suit if guns were more readily available? Will other countries follow suit and demand more access to guns?

Without an existing gun culture? I doubt it.

[Typhoon]

Would other countries follow suit if guns were more readily available? Will other countries follow suit and demand more access to guns?

Without an existing gun culture? I doubt it.

'

Bingo.

[planctom]

Over on our Alaska forum, a member posted that ". . referring to gun ownership as a 'gun culture' it gives a negative connotation."

As a life-long gun-owner, shooter, and hunter, I don't equate gun ownership with a "gun culture," but I do believe a genuine, sort of subterranean gun culture exists in America today.

What about it? How do others, particularly non-Americans, see American vis-a-vis guns?

Yes !

[Demon of Undoing]

America began and continued as a gun culture. The story of America is a story about guns, at nearly every turn. It is part of who we are. The further it gets from those roots, the less it looks like America as designed.

[planctom]

But IMVHO warrior qualities are included in use of guns.....

Owning a gun doesn't make you a warrior.

. . .

Indeed.

One of the most famous American soldiers, Alvin C. York, enlisted as a conscientious objector.

The deadliest soldier in recorded history was a five foot tall Finnish farmer, Simo Häyhä

_____

As other have pointed out, owning guns and using in a rural setting for hunting [and protecting livestock from predators], is common in most parts of the world.
Owning and knowing how to use a gun can be considered a necessity in such an environment.

In Japan, it is possible, but difficult, to own a hunting rifle.

What is almost unique about the US among industrialized societies [only newly industrializing Brazil is comparable]

1/ the use of guns in homicides

2/ the level of gun violence in a particular sub-population: black

3/ the belief that one also needs to own hand-guns and [semi-automatic] rifles in an urban, as opposed to rural, environment

4/ the ease with which one can acquire a hand gun or [semi-automatic] rifle [easier than buying a cold decongestant, alcohol, or a hunting/fishing license or earning a drivers license]

5/ the paradoxical belief that gun ownership is necessary to "protect liberty and personal freedoms" while at the same time allowing, and even demanding that, the government take away ever more personal freedoms.

So, yes, I think that the US has a gun culture.

Typhoon, I agree with number 1 and 2, but nothing like number 3 happens here in Brazil
Regarding number 4, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to have access to guns here in Brazil, I mean, legal ones.
The government tried to ban all types of guns but it was defeated by popular vote.
It's interesting that the most violent places in Brazil are towns and rural areas outside the Southeastern States, usually in NE region of the country, in the so called no-one's land .
The State of Sao Paulo has half the homicide rate of Rio, the police is more eficient and better trained.

[Ibrahim]

Sorry . . didn't make myself clear. I'm only asking what's to prevent civilization, particularly big cities, from following America's lead where firearms are used for self-defense?

They don't want America's routine mass-shootings and massive gun-related homicide rates.

Granted Americans have a particular fondness for guns in that regard and others, snd more and more city folks seem to be relying more on guns and less on police as a means of deterring urban crime.

No evidence at all that this is happening or works.

Would other countries follow suit if guns were more readily available?

Guns are readily available in other countries.

[Typhoon]

But IMVHO warrior qualities are included in use of guns.....

Owning a gun doesn't make you a warrior.

. . .

Indeed.

One of the most famous American soldiers, Alvin C. York, enlisted as a conscientious objector.

The deadliest soldier in recorded history was a five foot tall Finnish farmer, Simo Häyhä

_____

As other have pointed out, owning guns and using in a rural setting for hunting [and protecting livestock from predators], is common in most parts of the world.
Owning and knowing how to use a gun can be considered a necessity in such an environment.

In Japan, it is possible, but difficult, to own a hunting rifle.

What is almost unique about the US among industrialized societies [only newly industrializing Brazil is comparable]

1/ the use of guns in homicides

2/ the level of gun violence in a particular sub-population: black

3/ the belief that one also needs to own hand-guns and [semi-automatic] rifles in an urban, as opposed to rural, environment

4/ the ease with which one can acquire a hand gun or [semi-automatic] rifle [easier than buying a cold decongestant, alcohol, or a hunting/fishing license or earning a drivers license]

5/ the paradoxical belief that gun ownership is necessary to "protect liberty and personal freedoms" while at the same time allowing, and even demanding that, the government take away ever more personal freedoms.

So, yes, I think that the US has a gun culture.

Typhoon, I agree with number 1 and 2, but nothing like number 3 happens here in Brazil
Regarding number 4, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to have access to guns here in Brazil, I mean, legal ones.
The government tried to ban all types of guns but it was defeated by popular vote.
It's interesting that the most violent places in Brazil are towns and rural areas outside the Southeastern States, usually in NE region of the country, in the so called no-one's land .
The State of Sao Paulo has half the homicide rate of Rio, the police is more efficient and better trained.

Sorry, it occurred to me afterwards that my post was poorly composed. I was only comparing the overall homicide by gun rate between the two countries.
Points 1 to 4 are only applicable to the US.

Thanks for your observations re Brazil.

[noddy]

i feel compelled to repeat all this only makes sense if you worry about "gun homicides" in exclusion to the actual homicide rate.

for australia the homicide rate did not change post gun ban but the gun homicide rate did.

one might suggest people with a tendancy to violence will find a way and america is culturally interesting on these levels.

[Ibrahim]

i feel compelled to repeat all this only makes sense if you worry about "gun homicides" in exclusion to the actual homicide rate.

for australia the homicide rate did not change post gun ban but the gun homicide rate did.

one might suggest people with a tendancy to violence will find a way and america is culturally interesting on these levels.

You can stab somebody, but very seldom will the knife go through the intended victim, through a wooden wall, into a child's bedroom, and kill the child. To people who say "are non-gun murders better than gun murders?" I say: "a little bit, yeah."

[noddy]

i feel compelled to repeat all this only makes sense if you worry about "gun homicides" in exclusion to the actual homicide rate.

for australia the homicide rate did not change post gun ban but the gun homicide rate did.

one might suggest people with a tendancy to violence will find a way and america is culturally interesting on these levels.

You can stab somebody, but very seldom will the knife go through the intended victim, through a wooden wall, into a child's bedroom, and kill the child. To people who say "are non-gun murders better than gun murders?" I say: "a little bit, yeah."

the gun lobby would point out that the statistic for that occurring would need to be balanced against the legitimate home defense statistic of women and old people stopping a violent home invader.

still, in australia the homicide statistic pre gun ban was much lower than the american one anyway.. americans like killing eachother more than the rest of us do.

[Simple Minded]

I suspect that if you are comfortable with guns as inanimate objects, you are part of the "gun culture," if you are not comfortable with the existence of guns, you are not part of the gun culture. In that regard, I hope the US has a gun culture.

noddy's first post makes an excellent point, most of those I know who are vehemently anti-gun, are those who do not seem to trust themselves. That they find the idea of giving "the others" the ability to kill by simpling pulling on a small lever with a couple pounds of force to be horrifying, often seems to be an honest fear of what they might become if they were given the technology. In some circles it is called projection.

Read Ibrahim's answer to the OP again. Guns are everywhere, but the US gun culture is unique. Most people around the world don't make a fuss about their guns. As strange as it may sound, in countries such as mine both the gun lover and the gun hater are practically aliens.

I'd say that this gun culture is probably part of the US technological fetishism. Even a warlike people such as the Afghans tends to focus on the warrior and the warrior qualities/values, not his weapons.

What part of Ib's post did you think I missed? Remember, I'm simple minded, use small words and type slowly.. Actually I was replying to Marcus' post.

People who insist on painting America (or Canada, Europe, blacks, whites, etc.) with the board cultural brush are truly misguided. The parts of America that have problems with guns are very few and pretty isolated.

I'll bet car owners or computer owners break more laws than gun owners on a per capita basis. Could that be due to age? Or maybe the whole gun issue is just a big red herring concocted by the MSM and the pols. Nothing makes the incompetent look better than demonizing a boogey man...

You are probably right that a lot of it is a hardware or art/design fetish. I know people who buy guns, cars, tractors, knives, antiques, etc. who have no desire to ever use them. Very, very generational and regionally dependent upon what culture prevailed when one was a child. Nostalgia tends to be like that.

[Simple Minded]

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Simple Minded............

"God made some (wo)men big and some (wo)men small, Willian Colt made all (wo)men equal!"

Seconded......

Second Amendmented

Be careful what you wish for!!!

Quite Right.......

You are a Genius Genie-Uz

Actually I'm a simple minded SOB.. and proud of it....

I think a lot of society's problem are more due to the "diminished concept of personal responsibilty culture" rather than "the gun culture." It would be interesting to see gun violence charted against abortion, illegitmacy, divorce, child abuse, domestic violence, proliferation of drugs, speeding tickets, road rage, obesity, etc. both in terms of chronology and location.

A culture that blames inanimate objects for it's problems has much bigger problems than controlling its inanimate objects.

Culture is local and allways in flux, sucks to not be able to vote with your feet.

anybody hear fiddle music and smell smoke? Specially in the localized cultures prone to all of the above?

[Simple Minded]

US: 3.2 homicides by gun per 100,000 people

Japan: 0.02 homicides by gun per 100,000 people

The point is there are many different way for societies for organize themselves.

The downside of the Japanese way is social pressure and onerous obligations leading to suicide.

The downside of the American way is alienation and paranoia leading to homicide.

Excellent point CS, you statement about suicide made me think of mutilating an old quote "Peer pressure is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master."

Peer pressure can be a wonderful tool or a horrible influence. Like the old joke "Take one Baptist fishing and he will drink all your beer. Take two Baptists fishing and neither will touch a drop."

I remember 30 years ago hearing the father of a friend say there was very little illegitimacy when he was in high school because of the sense of shame. The girl and the boy would both be socially ostracized due to their low moral character. When I was in high school, the same was true of those who collected unemployment. They were viewed as stealing from widows and orphans who were in greater need.

Now it is not unusual in some areas for high school girls to have their year book photos taken with their babies, and if you are not milking the system, you are often viewed as stupid.

Luckily, here is the US, the sense of alienation and paranoia leading to homicide are very localized phenomenas. Easier to blame inanimate objects than social pathologies, or accepted norms like drugging children or POS parents.

[Demon of Undoing]

Again, I'd like to point out that half of US homicides are linked to the war on drugs and and inner city blacks( and the complex set of causes there). Pinning them to guns for the sake of guns is very misleading.

[monster_gardener]

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Simple Minded............

"God made some (wo)men big and some (wo)men small, Willian Colt made all (wo)men equal!"

Seconded......

Second Amendmented

Be careful what you wish for!!!

Quite Right.......

You are a Genius Genie-Uz

Actually I'm a simple minded SOB.. and proud of it....

I think a lot of society's problem are more due to the "diminished concept of personal responsibilty culture" rather than "the gun culture." It would be interesting to see gun violence charted against abortion, illegitmacy, divorce, child abuse, domestic violence, proliferation of drugs, speeding tickets, road rage, obesity, etc. both in terms of chronology and location.

A culture that blames inanimate objects for it's problems has much bigger problems than controlling its inanimate objects.

Culture is local and allways in flux, sucks to not be able to vote with your feet.

anybody hear fiddle music and smell smoke? Specially in the localized cultures prone to all of the above?

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Simple Minded.

sucks to not be able to vote with your feet.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

Something I HATE about socialist dictator types....
And Similar.......
Reminds me of feudal lords and serfs.....

Seconded!

Being able to vote with your feet is IMVHO the most important type of voting......

Probably as important as being properly armed...

Ideally one should be able to outrun anything you can't outfight.....
And outfight anything you can't outrun..........
And for when you can't do either..........
Corbomite.......
For real......
If surrender terms are untenable....

Actually I'm a simple minded SOB.. and proud of it....

Simple can be elegant............

Simple can be practical.......

KISS........ Keep It Simple Soldier

[monster_gardener]

US: 3.2 homicides by gun per 100,000 people

Japan: 0.02 homicides by gun per 100,000 people

The point is there are many different way for societies for organize themselves.

The downside of the Japanese way is social pressure and onerous obligations leading to suicide.

The downside of the American way is alienation and paranoia leading to homicide.

Excellent point CS, you statement about suicide made me think of mutilating an old quote "Peer pressure is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master."

Peer pressure can be a wonderful tool or a horrible influence. Like the old joke "Take one Baptist fishing and he will drink all your beer. Take two Baptists fishing and neither will touch a drop."

I remember 30 years ago hearing the father of a friend say there was very little illegitimacy when he was in high school because of the sense of shame. The girl and the boy would both be socially ostracized due to their low moral character. When I was in high school, the same was true of those who collected unemployment. They were viewed as stealing from widows and orphans who were in greater need.

Now it is not unusual in some areas for high school girls to have their year book photos taken with their babies, and if you are not milking the system, you are often viewed as stupid.

Luckily, here is the US, the sense of alienation and paranoia leading to homicide are very localized phenomenas. Easier to blame inanimate objects than social pathologies, or accepted norms like drugging children or POS parents.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Simple Minded...

Peer pressure can be a wonderful tool or a horrible influence. Like the old joke "Take one Baptist fishing and he will drink all your beer. Take two Baptists fishing and neither will touch a drop."

Hmmmmmnnnnnnnn.. FWIS Reminds me a bit of Muslims too.... Unless on fanatics/on Jihad, individually might be OK..... Get a critical mass for peer pressure and the demands for Sharia can start.... No booze, even in sealed bottles, in Somali driven taxis in Uz... etc to the crap that happens in Eurabia.....

I remember 30 years ago hearing the father of a friend say there was very little illegitimacy when he was in high school because of the sense of shame. The girl and the boy would both be socially ostracized due to their low moral character.

Usually they would get married or the girl would go on a trip and the child would be put up for adoption there.....

When I was in high school, the same was true of those who collected unemployment. They were viewed as stealing from widows and orphans who were in greater need.

Welfare yes..........

Unemployment no...... Remembering one of the games coal companies would play to keep from paying it.... Call back to work for one day to keep miners on layoff from qualifying......

Now it is not unusual in some areas for high school girls to have their year book photos taken with their babies,

Not keen on this but consider the likely alternative..... Abortion.....
Thus having a baby out of wedlock is the more moral life choosing choice..........

At least as long as a habit is not made of it.......

And may be better that than what seems to be happening in Your Time is Up Europe...

But other places have other ways............

In some parts of Latin America, sometimes it is the grown children who pressure their common law parents to make it legal and right with the Church...

Have read that the Vikings didn't want to marry a woman until she had gotten pregnant..... Didn't want to marry a sterile wife.... Thought a priest needed to be married.............

[YMix]

People who insist on painting America (or Canada, Europe, blacks, whites, etc.) with the board cultural brush are truly misguided. The parts of America that have problems with guns are very few and pretty isolated.

I'll bet car owners or computer owners break more laws than gun owners on a per capita basis. Could that be due to age? Or maybe the whole gun issue is just a big red herring concocted by the MSM and the pols. Nothing makes the incompetent look better than demonizing a boogey man...

I was talking about gun culture, not gun problems.

Remember, I'm simple minded, use small words and type slowly.

Why do I even bother?

[Simple Minded]

People who insist on painting America (or Canada, Europe, blacks, whites, etc.) with the board cultural brush are truly misguided. The parts of America that have problems with guns are very few and pretty isolated.

I'll bet car owners or computer owners break more laws than gun owners on a per capita basis. Could that be due to age? Or maybe the whole gun issue is just a big red herring concocted by the MSM and the pols. Nothing makes the incompetent look better than demonizing a boogey man...

I was talking about gun culture, not gun problems.

Huh, me too.... that's weird....

Remember, I'm simple minded, use small words and type slowly.

Why do I even bother?

Cause yer a wonderful humanitarian who wants to help the mentally challenged?

first they came for simple minded SOBs who believed in the concept of personal responsibility. But i didn't say anythng cause I wasn't a SMSOBWBITCOPR... then they came for the left handed transvesites, then the gays, the latinos, the blacks, the rednecks, the black rednecks, the white liberals, the asians, the people who did well on Mensa tests, the people who could tell the difference between white and red wine........ but when they finally came for the Romans.....

[Doc]

[Demon of Undoing]

Dear God, why can't stupid be painful?