Precisely. The Catholic scandal draws attention because the Catholic church is a single unified organization, and because they attempted, on an institutional level, to conceal a criminal matter from the legal authorities.Nonc Hilaire wrote: Other religions and cultures who value celibacy are not overrun with pedophiles, and there are plenty of secular and Protestant pedophiles.
Pope Down
Re: Pope Down
- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11644
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Pope Down
noddy wrote:.
the "gay pride" thing is a load of stupid that sprung up against an equally big load of stupid which is "gay hate".
gays being normalised is mostly whats happening away from the vocal extremes and normalised is boring... you get pride from what you contribute to society and not from your bedroom antics.
the fundie conservatives and the gay agenda progressives dominate the conversation with each others fears of slippery slopes and they dominate the media time but in the real world i find very few gays or straights who waste as much mind space and energy on this.
both groups have been around since the dawn of time and despite the protests of both, the rest of us have got on with our own lives and our own hormonal urges
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" normalized " that's a good one, noddy
ain't so, noddy, ain't so
things more than that
that whole homosexual garbage part of a conspiracy by a force, by certain faction, bent to corrupt, destroy, western culture and civilization, by dismantling, one by one, elements and pillars of western civilization .. you are dismantled from within, one by one, pillars of western cultures and civilization fallin, silliness and inhumanity becoming norm, logic redefined .. all in the name of modernity and liberalism
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Re: Pope Down
Ibrahim wrote:You mean by putting tires around openly homosexual peoples' necks and lighting them on fire? Because that is something that you will see in African countries.Nastarana wrote:The cardinal answered the question she should have asked, which is what must the Catholic Church do now about the sexual abuse scandal. I though his answer was straightforward, make sure sexual criminals are not graduating from seminaries. I rather think his remarks about African communities not tolerating gays was a hint, if you will, that in Africa, the heirarchy has its ways of keeping candidates it deems undesireable out of the priesthood.
Turkman is wrong to even raise the issue of homosexuality, for two reasons:
1. it is not related to pedophilia.
2. its a distraction from the real problem of the sex abuse scandal, which was institutional coverup and abuse of power.
Moreover, is there some problem with homosexuals becoming priests in and of itself? All priests are supposed to be celibate (not to mention refrain from molesting children) so excluding homosexuals from the priesthood could serve no other purpose than malicious discrimination.
I'm not even asking Turkman to be some kind of campus radical here, I'm just asking for the PR version of Catholic doctrine. Don't conflate pedophilia with homosexuality and boast about the intolerance of African society towards homosexuals. Nobody expects a developing nation to be on par with San Francisco in terms of social egalitarianism, but that is to be understood and improved upon, not celebrated as a corrective for an unrelated problem.
Caring for the poor and educacting the young is political. And religious. Gustavo Gutierrez wrote famously on that point from a Catholic perspective.What I hope the next pope will do is get the American church out of politics and back to caring for the poor and educating our young.
If you wish to accuse any Catholic clergyman of incitement to violence, please provide a link to evidence of same.
Let the record show that it is not me who is accusing the people of Africa, or any portion thereof, of savage or uncivilized behavior. Sadly, such can be found on every continent except Antarctica and among members of almost every race, religion or creed.
For what it might be worth, I do not think Cardinal Turkson will be elected. I think he is a stalking horse, drawing media attention away from others. If he continues to play his part well, he will surely have enhanced stature and a more important appointment. He may also be able to direct a larger amount of attention and resources to Africa. I think and I hope that this charade means that the church has finally decided to turn away from neo-liberalism and the Washington Consensus. I suspect that the conclave will elect a man from South America, which is now the world center of resistance to the IMF, WB and other tentacles of the world financial octopus.
The point about politics is quite simple. The Repulican Party cannot win elections without Catholic voters. The American church made a devil's bargain, to at least tacitly support the crimes and follies of Republican politicians, such as unjust wars of aggression and savage cuts in necessary social services, in return for the mere promise of repeal of Roe vs. Wade.
Re: Pope Down
What I said is that the quotes from Turkson that I provided demonstrate approval for the anti-homosexual climate of Nigeria and elsewhere. He also appears to advocate for discrimination against homosexuals seeking to join the clergy, which is not the official position of the Vatican.Nastarana wrote:Ibrahim wrote:You mean by putting tires around openly homosexual peoples' necks and lighting them on fire? Because that is something that you will see in African countries.Nastarana wrote:The cardinal answered the question she should have asked, which is what must the Catholic Church do now about the sexual abuse scandal. I though his answer was straightforward, make sure sexual criminals are not graduating from seminaries. I rather think his remarks about African communities not tolerating gays was a hint, if you will, that in Africa, the heirarchy has its ways of keeping candidates it deems undesireable out of the priesthood.
Turkman is wrong to even raise the issue of homosexuality, for two reasons:
1. it is not related to pedophilia.
2. its a distraction from the real problem of the sex abuse scandal, which was institutional coverup and abuse of power.
Moreover, is there some problem with homosexuals becoming priests in and of itself? All priests are supposed to be celibate (not to mention refrain from molesting children) so excluding homosexuals from the priesthood could serve no other purpose than malicious discrimination.
I'm not even asking Turkman to be some kind of campus radical here, I'm just asking for the PR version of Catholic doctrine. Don't conflate pedophilia with homosexuality and boast about the intolerance of African society towards homosexuals. Nobody expects a developing nation to be on par with San Francisco in terms of social egalitarianism, but that is to be understood and improved upon, not celebrated as a corrective for an unrelated problem.
Caring for the poor and educacting the young is political. And religious. Gustavo Gutierrez wrote famously on that point from a Catholic perspective.What I hope the next pope will do is get the American church out of politics and back to caring for the poor and educating our young.
If you wish to accuse any Catholic clergyman of incitement to violence, please provide a link to evidence of same.
Such incidents are a matter of record. Turkson's fraudulent blame of homosexuals for the abuse scandal, and tacit approval of discrimination against homosexuals in Africa, make such incidents more likely to happen.Let the record show that it is not me who is accusing the people of Africa, or any portion thereof, of savage or uncivilized behavior.
- Heracleum Persicum
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- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Pope Down
Nastarana wrote:.
The Repulican Party cannot win elections without Catholic voters. The American church made a devil's bargain, to at least tacitly support the crimes and follies of Republican politicians, such as unjust wars of aggression and savage cuts in necessary social services, in return for the mere promise of repeal of Roe vs. Wade.
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Hmmm
Republicans (and America) justify killing 1+ million Iraqi children .. but make a deal with homosexual clergy in return for repeal of Roe vs. Wade to dave unborn children
Interesting
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- Endovelico
- Posts: 3038
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Pope Down
All you say is true, except on what concerns the degree in which those situations occur. Proportionally to their numbers, sexual abuse and paedophilia seem to be a much more frequent situation among RC priests than in any other group. But wherever it occurs the causes are the same: excessive repression of sexual drive among the young. What you don't do as a youngster, you tend to try to do at a later age. If, at the age of, say, thirteen, you strongly repress the wish to have sexual games with the girl - or boy - next door, because you fear going to hell, you risk trying it - with a 13 years old youngster - when you are an adult.Nonc Hilaire wrote:This is not true, except for the last sentence. Other religions and cultures who value celibacy are not overrun with pedophiles, and there are plenty of secular and Protestant pedophiles. There are also plenty of Catholic clergy who find themselves unable to keep their vows and have sexual relations with consenting adults.Endovelico wrote:Will the RCC ever realize that their problem with paedophilia has its roots on their celibacy rules and the way they repress sexuality among their student priests? Boys who cannot express normally their sexuality and are taught to think that sex must be repressed will grow up with an unsolved problem of sexuality. Some of them will try to solve their adolescent sexual frustration as grownups, and that leads to paedophilia. An end to celibacy and an encouragement to guiltless masturbation as youngsters as well as responsible sex with girls of their age, would quickly solve the paedophilic tendencies in the Church. And would make them a lot more competent to hear confession...
I imagine that pedophilia is most common among sexually active married couples with children, both in child abuse and incest between siblings. I also imagine most priests manage to remain celibate, and I am a Wesleyan Protestant and not a defensive RC apologist.
The problem is that an criminal network developed because the Church administration enabled it. The RC church created a powerful safe haven for pedophiles, but celibacy did not cause the pedophilia.
Re: Pope Down
Indeed. That is why I called it a devil's bargain. The American hierarchy has a lot to answer for. I take Cardinal's Turkson's comment about victims being properly cared for as a signal that penalties, such as reduced living standards, will be imposed by the next pope.Heracleum Persicum wrote:Nastarana wrote:.
The Repulican Party cannot win elections without Catholic voters. The American church made a devil's bargain, to at least tacitly support the crimes and follies of Republican politicians, such as unjust wars of aggression and savage cuts in necessary social services, in return for the mere promise of repeal of Roe vs. Wade.
.
Hmmm
Republicans (and America) justify killing 1+ million Iraqi children .. but make a deal with homosexual clergy in return for repeal of Roe vs. Wade to dave unborn children
Interesting
.
Re: Pope Down
That's pretty light for concealing abuse from the authorities. The only correct action would be to open Vatican records to investigators and extradite suspects to the respective jurisdictions for trial. I've never heard a good reason why the Vatican couldn't do this except that they don't wanna.Nastarana wrote:Indeed. That is why I called it a devil's bargain. The American hierarchy has a lot to answer for. I take Cardinal's Turkson's comment about victims being properly cared for as a signal that penalties, such as reduced living standards, will be imposed by the next pope.
Failing the ideal response, the next Pope needs to formally address the systemic problems and issue further apologies, not scapegoat homosexuals. That, along with settlements for the victims, would be enough to put this thing behind them. Then we can go back to complaining about their stance on condoms in Africa.
- Heracleum Persicum
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- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Pope Down
.
The three-man panel, according to La Repubblica, discovered an underground gay network whose members organized sexual meetings in several locations, including a villa outside Rome, a sauna in Rome's Cuarto Miligo distirct and even in a beauty salon inside the Vatican.
.. didn't know there is a "beauty salon inside the Vatican" .. maybe that's where they "beautify the saints"
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The three-man panel, according to La Repubblica, discovered an underground gay network whose members organized sexual meetings in several locations, including a villa outside Rome, a sauna in Rome's Cuarto Miligo distirct and even in a beauty salon inside the Vatican.
La Repubblica quoted an unidentified man described as ''very close'' to the authors of the dossier as saying it contained information about violations of the sixth and seventh commandments, which forbid adultery and stealing.
The British newspaper, The Guardian, notes that the sixth commandment also "is linked in Catholic doctrine to the proscribing of homosexual acts."
The U.S. website, The Daily Beast, reports that investigative journalist Carmello Abbate went undercover with a hidden camera in 2010 in Rome to produce an expose called “Good Nights Out for Gay Priests.”
The scandal has erupted as the pope is clearing the decks of his pontificate, tweaking the rules of the conclave, finessing the religious rites used to launch the next papacy and making some eyebrow-raising final appointments before he retires next week.
The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano said in editions published late Friday that Benedict had signed a decree earlier in the week making some changes to the papal installation Mass, separating out the actual rite of installation from the liturgy itself.
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.. didn't know there is a "beauty salon inside the Vatican" .. maybe that's where they "beautify the saints"
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Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Pope Down
http://gawker.com/5986412/pope-linked-t ... il-scandal
What?
Pope Linked to Gay Blackmail Scandal
A new report outlining a network of gay Vatican officials might have been behind the Pope's resignation earlier this month, a claim the Vatican neither confirms or denies.
Italian newspaper La Repubblica reports that gay Vatican prelates were being blackmailed by people with knowledge of their network, which met and had sexual encounters in "a villa outside the Italian capital, a sauna in a Rome suburb, a beauty parlour in the centre, and a former university residence that was in use by a provincial Italian archbishop."
The network was supposedly detailed in a 300-page report to the Pope put together by three cardinals who were looking into the "Vatileaks" affair, a series of Papal dispatches which were stolen and leaked by Pope Benedict's butler last May. The report was given to the Pope on the same day he reportedly decided to resign.
The cardinals found that "various lobbies within the Holy See were consistently breaking" the sixth and seventh commandments (no adultery, no stealing), and were influencing the Vatican. Pope Benedict alluded to the affair in his Ash Wednesday homily, when he railed against vague internal "divisions."
This hasn't been the first recent revelation of a gay sex network in the Vatican (the Vatican bars sexually active gay men from the priesthood). The Guardian reports other incidents in 2007 and 2010:
"In 2007 a senior official was suspended from the congregation, or department, for the priesthood, after he was filmed in a "sting" organised by an Italian television programme while apparently making sexual overtures to a younger man.
In 2010 a chorister was dismissed for allegedly procuring male prostitutes for a papal gentleman-in-waiting. A few months later a weekly news magazine used hidden cameras to record priests visiting gay clubs and bars and having sex."
Vatican spokesman Father Frederico Lombardi commented on the story, "Let each one assume his or her own responsibilities. We shall not be following up on the observations that are made about this."
What?
- Heracleum Persicum
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- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Pope Down
Ibrahim wrote:http://gawker.com/5986412/pope-linked-t ... il-scandal
Pope Linked to Gay Blackmail Scandal
A new report outlining a network of gay Vatican officials might have been behind the Pope's resignation earlier this month, a claim the Vatican neither confirms or denies.
Italian newspaper La Repubblica reports that gay Vatican prelates were being blackmailed by people with knowledge of their network, which met and had sexual encounters in "a villa outside the Italian capital, a sauna in a Rome suburb, a beauty parlour in the centre, and a former university residence that was in use by a provincial Italian archbishop."
The network was supposedly detailed in a 300-page report to the Pope put together by three cardinals who were looking into the "Vatileaks" affair, a series of Papal dispatches which were stolen and leaked by Pope Benedict's butler last May. The report was given to the Pope on the same day he reportedly decided to resign.
The cardinals found that "various lobbies within the Holy See were consistently breaking" the sixth and seventh commandments (no adultery, no stealing), and were influencing the Vatican. Pope Benedict alluded to the affair in his Ash Wednesday homily, when he railed against vague internal "divisions."
This hasn't been the first recent revelation of a gay sex network in the Vatican (the Vatican bars sexually active gay men from the priesthood). The Guardian reports other incidents in 2007 and 2010:
"In 2007 a senior official was suspended from the congregation, or department, for the priesthood, after he was filmed in a "sting" organised by an Italian television programme while apparently making sexual overtures to a younger man.
In 2010 a chorister was dismissed for allegedly procuring male prostitutes for a papal gentleman-in-waiting. A few months later a weekly news magazine used hidden cameras to record priests visiting gay clubs and bars and having sex."
Vatican spokesman Father Frederico Lombardi commented on the story, "Let each one assume his or her own responsibilities. We shall not be following up on the observations that are made about this."
What ?
.
Told you .. he walks funny
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- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11644
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Pope Down
.
look, guys .. this becoming too funny now
UK's top cardinal accused of 'inappropriate acts' by priests
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eur ... story.html
Poor Ratzinger goin BaNaNa
.
look, guys .. this becoming too funny now
UK's top cardinal accused of 'inappropriate acts' by priests
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priests and a former priest in Scotland have reported the most senior Catholic clergyman in Britain, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, to the Vatican over allegations of inappropriate behaviour stretching back 30 years.
The four, from the diocese of St Andrews and Edinburgh, have complained to nuncio Antonio Mennini, the Vatican's ambassador to Britain, and demanded O'Brien's immediate resignation. A spokesman for the cardinal said that the claims were contested.
O'Brien, who is due to retire next month, has been an outspoken opponent of gay rights, condemning homosexuality as immoral, opposing gay adoption, and most recently arguing that same-sex marriages would be "harmful to the physical, mental and spiritual well-being of those involved". Last year he was named "bigot of the year" by the gay rights charity Stonewall.
One of the complainants, it is understood, alleges that the cardinal developed an inappropriate relationship with him, resulting in a need for long-term psychological counselling.
The four submitted statements containing their claims to the nuncio's office the week before Pope Benedict's resignation on 11 February. They fear that, if O'Brien travels to the forthcoming papal conclave to elect a new pope, the church will not fully address their complaints.
"It tends to cover up and protect the system at all costs," said one of the complainants. "The church is beautiful, but it has a dark side and that has to do with accountability. If the system is to be improved, maybe it needs to be dismantled a bit."
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eur ... story.html
Poor Ratzinger goin BaNaNa
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Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Heracleum Persicum
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- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Pope Down
Assuredly, such does need to happen, along with prosecution of about 3/4 of Wall Street fauna, indictment and prosecution of the entire leadership, past and present, of TBTF banks along with liquidation of TBTF banks themselves, enforcement of antitrust laws especially in the ag sector, dismissal and possible prosecution of govt. officials who put wealthy private interest ahead of the public interest and one could go on. The priestly scandals are part and parcel of the more general corruption at upper echelons throughout American society.Ibrahim wrote:That's pretty light for concealing abuse from the authorities. The only correct action would be to open Vatican records to investigators and extradite suspects to the respective jurisdictions for trial. I've never heard a good reason why the Vatican couldn't do this except that they don't wanna.Nastarana wrote:Indeed. That is why I called it a devil's bargain. The American hierarchy has a lot to answer for. I take Cardinal's Turkson's comment about victims being properly cared for as a signal that penalties, such as reduced living standards, will be imposed by the next pope.
Failing the ideal response, the next Pope needs to formally address the systemic problems and issue further apologies, not scapegoat homosexuals. That, along with settlements for the victims, would be enough to put this thing behind them. Then we can go back to complaining about their stance on condoms in Africa.
It may be that public prosecution is what it will take to remind some bishops and archbishops that they serve, in that order, God, the Catholic faithful and the poor and oppressed of the world.
- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11644
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Pope Down
.
what a disaster
David does not consider head of British Catholic Church being a long time homosexual, or having homosexual parties in Vatican Spa, next to holly Shepperd bedroom, a disaster for our beloved RCC and Christianity overall .. NO .. seems , David considers this all business as usual
but, rather
Scandal surrounding the Roman Catholic Church in the run-up to the election next week of a new pope is a distraction from a real scandal - the belief that God holds one people above others - that still finds support in Latin America and Africa. That is one reason why the election of a pope from a self-confident Asia would be better for the Church. The other concerns the greatest battle of the 21st century: the fight for the soul of China.
mustard seed
Zionist, David, shoe-shine RCC
otherwise all rubbish
.
what a disaster
David does not consider head of British Catholic Church being a long time homosexual, or having homosexual parties in Vatican Spa, next to holly Shepperd bedroom, a disaster for our beloved RCC and Christianity overall .. NO .. seems , David considers this all business as usual
but, rather
Scandal surrounding the Roman Catholic Church in the run-up to the election next week of a new pope is a distraction from a real scandal - the belief that God holds one people above others - that still finds support in Latin America and Africa. That is one reason why the election of a pope from a self-confident Asia would be better for the Church. The other concerns the greatest battle of the 21st century: the fight for the soul of China.
We might have to part with the notion of a popular Church. It is possible that we are on the verge of a new era in the history of the Church, under circumstances very different from those we have faced in the past, when Christianity will resemble the mustard seed [Matthew 13:31-32], that is, will continue only in the form of small and seemingly insignificant groups, which yet will oppose evil with all their strength and bring Good into this world.
mustard seed
For the Catholic Church, though, the problems raised by Ratzinger's "mustard-seed" concept are of a different order. It is hard for the Church to think of itself other than as the central institution of human society. To suggest that the Catholic Church will work in organizational forms so small that it cannot as a practical matter offer salvation to everyone is in a certain sense a contradiction in terms, due to history as much as to theology.
Western civilization was the Catholic Church during its first thousand years, from the fall of Rome in 476 to Luther's rupture in 1517. Not until the end of the Thirty Years War in 1648 did the Church accept the sovereignty of non-Catholic rulers, and not until the Second Vatican Council half a century ago did the Church abandon the concept of a state religion. It was meaningless to ask whether the Catholic Church was there to save everyone, because everyone was there only because the Catholic Church summoned the people of Europe into existence to begin with. The civilization in which the Church was embedded existed only because a single Church rose above the welter of Roman remnants and barbarian invaders who inhabited Europe in the wake of Rome's fall. That is the nub of "Europe is the faith, the faith is Europe", Hillaire Belloc's bon mot
Zionist, David, shoe-shine RCC
otherwise all rubbish
.
Re: Pope Down
The impression I am getting is that the corruption goes all the way up and down the hierarchy, that it is so thoroughly enmeshed in the hierarchy that they could not punish the behavior without dismantling the church.Nastarana wrote:Assuredly, such does need to happen, along with prosecution of about 3/4 of Wall Street fauna, indictment and prosecution of the entire leadership, past and present, of TBTF banks along with liquidation of TBTF banks themselves, enforcement of antitrust laws especially in the ag sector, dismissal and possible prosecution of govt. officials who put wealthy private interest ahead of the public interest and one could go on. The priestly scandals are part and parcel of the more general corruption at upper echelons throughout American society.Ibrahim wrote:That's pretty light for concealing abuse from the authorities. The only correct action would be to open Vatican records to investigators and extradite suspects to the respective jurisdictions for trial. I've never heard a good reason why the Vatican couldn't do this except that they don't wanna.Nastarana wrote:Indeed. That is why I called it a devil's bargain. The American hierarchy has a lot to answer for. I take Cardinal's Turkson's comment about victims being properly cared for as a signal that penalties, such as reduced living standards, will be imposed by the next pope.
Failing the ideal response, the next Pope needs to formally address the systemic problems and issue further apologies, not scapegoat homosexuals. That, along with settlements for the victims, would be enough to put this thing behind them. Then we can go back to complaining about their stance on condoms in Africa.
It may be that public prosecution is what it will take to remind some bishops and archbishops that they serve, in that order, God, the Catholic faithful and the poor and oppressed of the world.
That isn't to say that there aren't truly pious and virtuous priests, only that there are a whole lot of their counterparts.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
- Endovelico
- Posts: 3038
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Re: Pope Down
"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely..." It's genetic. I get this nagging feeling that the RCC is about to collapse, just as Saint Malachy prophetized in the 12th‑century...Enki wrote:The impression I am getting is that the corruption goes all the way up and down the hierarchy, that it is so thoroughly enmeshed in the hierarchy that they could not punish the behavior without dismantling the church.
That isn't to say that there aren't truly pious and virtuous priests, only that there are a whole lot of their counterparts.
Re: Pope Down
The comparison between the Vatican and certain large banking houses is apt, in terms of institutional opposition to external accountability.Nastarana wrote:Assuredly, such does need to happen, along with prosecution of about 3/4 of Wall Street fauna, indictment and prosecution of the entire leadership, past and present, of TBTF banks along with liquidation of TBTF banks themselves, enforcement of antitrust laws especially in the ag sector, dismissal and possible prosecution of govt. officials who put wealthy private interest ahead of the public interest and one could go on. The priestly scandals are part and parcel of the more general corruption at upper echelons throughout American society.Ibrahim wrote:That's pretty light for concealing abuse from the authorities. The only correct action would be to open Vatican records to investigators and extradite suspects to the respective jurisdictions for trial. I've never heard a good reason why the Vatican couldn't do this except that they don't wanna.Nastarana wrote:Indeed. That is why I called it a devil's bargain. The American hierarchy has a lot to answer for. I take Cardinal's Turkson's comment about victims being properly cared for as a signal that penalties, such as reduced living standards, will be imposed by the next pope.
Failing the ideal response, the next Pope needs to formally address the systemic problems and issue further apologies, not scapegoat homosexuals. That, along with settlements for the victims, would be enough to put this thing behind them. Then we can go back to complaining about their stance on condoms in Africa.
It may be that public prosecution is what it will take to remind some bishops and archbishops that they serve, in that order, God, the Catholic faithful and the poor and oppressed of the world.
The mistake the Catholic hierarchy have made is more tactical than strategic. I'm sure they thought they were doing what was best for their church and "the faithful" by covering up these crimes, but I'm arguing that transparency ultimately would have served everyone better. It would have been in their enlightened self-interest.
Re: Pope Down
It's a good time for the church as a whole to enter into a collective penance for its transgressions. Repent and be redeemed.Ibrahim wrote: The comparison between the Vatican and certain large banking houses is apt, in terms of institutional opposition to external accountability.
The mistake the Catholic hierarchy have made is more tactical than strategic. I'm sure they thought they were doing what was best for their church and "the faithful" by covering up these crimes, but I'm arguing that transparency ultimately would have served everyone better. It would have been in their enlightened self-interest.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Pope Down
Their logic, such as it is, in response to this scandal is actually consistent with with much of their history. In medieval Europe the clergy were immune to civil law, and could only be punished according to their own internal laws. To the extent that any civil magistrate attempting to prosecute or detain a clergyman was subject to excommunication. Whence our modern term "privilege" (literally "separate law" in Latin).Enki wrote:It's a good time for the church as a whole to enter into a collective penance for its transgressions. Repent and be redeemed.Ibrahim wrote: The comparison between the Vatican and certain large banking houses is apt, in terms of institutional opposition to external accountability.
The mistake the Catholic hierarchy have made is more tactical than strategic. I'm sure they thought they were doing what was best for their church and "the faithful" by covering up these crimes, but I'm arguing that transparency ultimately would have served everyone better. It would have been in their enlightened self-interest.
In any case somebody in that organization needs to remind everybody that this isn't 1300C.E. anymore. Felonies are the jurisdiction of law enforcement and criminal prosecution, and reporting them is not optional. There is ample justification for e.g. the D.A. of Los Angeles to seize every record and hard drive possessed by the Archdiocese and comb them for evidence of other crimes. But nobody wants to force this issue and everyone is waiting to the Catholic church to do the right thing of its own accord. Which it could do.
Re: Pope Down
Even if they want to handle it by separate law, they should handle it internally and make for penance. Have harsh internal judgments for such behaviors at the very least.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Pope Down
Someone outside the Catholic church would have to bring indictments and prosecute abuses and their coverup. That is precisely what cannot be allowed to happen. If the public sees Cardinals and Archbishops being prosecuted, they might get the idea that bankers, wall streeters and cabinet secretaries can also be prosecuted. The oligarchy must at all costs defend its servants. The occasional conviction of an obvious clown mal eleve like that former gov. of Illinois serves to reinforce the lie that justice applies equally to all.Ibrahim wrote:The comparison between the Vatican and certain large banking houses is apt, in terms of institutional opposition to external accountability.Nastarana wrote:Assuredly, such does need to happen, along with prosecution of about 3/4 of Wall Street fauna, indictment and prosecution of the entire leadership, past and present, of TBTF banks along with liquidation of TBTF banks themselves, enforcement of antitrust laws especially in the ag sector, dismissal and possible prosecution of govt. officials who put wealthy private interest ahead of the public interest and one could go on. The priestly scandals are part and parcel of the more general corruption at upper echelons throughout American society.Ibrahim wrote:That's pretty light for concealing abuse from the authorities. The only correct action would be to open Vatican records to investigators and extradite suspects to the respective jurisdictions for trial. I've never heard a good reason why the Vatican couldn't do this except that they don't wanna.Nastarana wrote:Indeed. That is why I called it a devil's bargain. The American hierarchy has a lot to answer for. I take Cardinal's Turkson's comment about victims being properly cared for as a signal that penalties, such as reduced living standards, will be imposed by the next pope.
Failing the ideal response, the next Pope needs to formally address the systemic problems and issue further apologies, not scapegoat homosexuals. That, along with settlements for the victims, would be enough to put this thing behind them. Then we can go back to complaining about their stance on condoms in Africa.
It may be that public prosecution is what it will take to remind some bishops and archbishops that they serve, in that order, God, the Catholic faithful and the poor and oppressed of the world.
The mistake the Catholic hierarchy have made is more tactical than strategic. I'm sure they thought they were doing what was best for their church and "the faithful" by covering up these crimes, but I'm arguing that transparency ultimately would have served everyone better. It would have been in their enlightened self-interest.
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Re: Pope Down
http://www.policymic.com/articles/28306 ... -over-name
Oakland Rapper Pope Emeritus Threatens Lawsuit
Oakland Rapper Pope Emeritus Threatens Lawsuit
Been busy doing stuff
Re: Pope Down
One can't help but speculate that given the long history of misbehaviour at the highest levels of the RC organization,
that there is some substance behind the rumour of blackmail with regards to sexual orientation and practice within the RC hierarchy reaching right up to the now former Pope.
that there is some substance behind the rumour of blackmail with regards to sexual orientation and practice within the RC hierarchy reaching right up to the now former Pope.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Pope Down
Anecdote. I recall a conversation with a transgendered activist. No matter how unrelated the topic, say, "bicycling in Vietnam" somehow it always came back to LGBT rights.noddy wrote:gobbeldy gook azari.
i can think of nothing more pathetic than someone who has only their genital shape and/or usage thereof to be proud of... sad people.
the "gay pride" thing is a load of stupid that sprung up against an equally big load of stupid which is "gay hate".
gays being normalised is mostly whats happening away from the vocal extremes and normalised is boring... you get pride from what you contribute to society and not from your bedroom antics.
the fundie conservatives and the gay agenda progressives dominate the conversation with each others fears of slippery slopes and they dominate the media time but in the real world i find very few gays or straights who waste as much mind space and energy on this.
both groups have been around since the dawn of time and despite the protests of both, the rest of us have got on with our own lives and our own hormonal urges.
Very tiresome.
Just as is the social conservatives obsession with the small LGBT minority.
As one wag noted, LBGT has gone from "that love that dare not speak it's name" to "the love that can't shut it's mouth."
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.