Viva Italia!

[Alexis]

Lest a great European nation is forgotten:

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...But the creative, imaginative, and to the financial-Europeist elite highly disruptive Italian parliamentary elections this February 24th/25th are here to remind everybody that Italy is there, and is not submitted!

[Azrael]

Bersani has a majority in the lower house; but Bersani plus Monti are short of a majority in the Senate.

Perhaps they can get the support of Liga Nord, in order to have a majority in the Senate, by offering to increase federalism/autonomy. The alternative would be another election, which I think might be a disaster for them.

[Typhoon]

DzdDf9hKfJw

Perhaps it's time to make myth reality and adopt Va, pensiero, sull'ali dorate as the official national anthem . . .

[Alexis]

Furor and contempt in most of the German press at the Italian election results is quite remarkable.

an almost childlike refusal to acknowledge reality (...) populism, yelling and lies rule Italy once more

With France that leading member of Merkel's party said is a "problem child" and now Italy behaving "childlike", teacher Angela Merkel definitly has work to do.

You have to commiserate with German politicians. Must be difficult being the lone adult among disobedient children.

[Endovelico]

Furor and contempt in most of the German press at the Italian election results is quite remarkable.

an almost childlike refusal to acknowledge reality (...) populism, yelling and lies rule Italy once more

With France that leading member of Merkel's party said is a "problem child" and now Italy behaving "childlike", teacher Angela Merkel definitly has work to do.

You have to commiserate with German politicians. Must be difficult being the lone adult among disobedient children.

The sad truth is that Germans have not yet given up their old concentration-camp-guard mentality... For them "Arbeit" continues to "macht frei"... under their usual conditions...

[Typhoon]

Stereotype much?

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

[Alexis]

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

Indeed. The issue, thankfully, is not people organizing mass murders.

The issue is only that for some German politicians to display arrogance when commenting other country's political choices is not conducive to good cooperation with those countries. Not a vital issue to be sure, but significant nonetheless I would say.

Regarding comments on Italian politics, now it's the leader of the main opposition party, SPD's Peer Steinbrück, who is at it again:

"To a certain degree, I am horrified that two clowns won the election," Peer Steinbrück, Germany's former finance minister and the Social Democratic candidate for chancellor in autumn elections, said on Tuesday evening, referring to Berlusconi and Grillo. (...)
Italian President Giorgio Napolitano, in Germany for a visit, promptly cancelled a planned meeting with Steinbrück as a result of the comment.

[Azrael]

Italy is headed for a broad coalition government as bondholders pressure Pier Luigi Bersani and Silvio Berlusconi to set aside their rivalries and form a partnership

Talk about a shotgun wedding.

If this actually occurs, here's what I think will happen:

1. The government won't last very long.
2. The government will hardly get anything done.
3. In the next election, which won't be long in coming, Bersani and Berlusconi will be punished by the voters.

Beppe Grillo will laugh all the way to the Palazzo Chigi (where his hand-picked associate will reside).

We could see Italy leave the Euro, see Padania leave Italy, or some other event worthy of an encyclopedia entry.

[Azrael]

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

Indeed. The issue, thankfully, is not people organizing mass murders.

The issue is only that for some German politicians to display arrogance when commenting other country's political choices is not conducive to good cooperation with those countries. Not a vital issue to be sure, but significant nonetheless I would say.

Regarding comments on Italian politics, now it's the leader of the main opposition party, SPD's Peer Steinbrück, who is at it again:

"To a certain degree, I am horrified that two clowns won the election," Peer Steinbrück, Germany's former finance minister and the Social Democratic candidate for chancellor in autumn elections, said on Tuesday evening, referring to Berlusconi and Grillo. (...)
Italian President Giorgio Napolitano, in Germany for a visit, promptly cancelled a planned meeting with Steinbrück as a result of the comment.

Speaking of clowns, Grillo suggested that Dario Fo be the next President of Italy.

[Endovelico]

Stereotype much?

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

You missed the point of my post. When Germans placed signs stating that work makes us free at the gates of concentration camps, they were not being facetious. They really believe that work liberates even if it is forced labour. Anyone thinking that there is more to life than work will be considered a clown and seen as unreliable by Germans.

[noddy]

them crazy germans, latent nazis the lot of em.

funny pants aswell.

[Apollonius]

You missed the point of my post. When Germans placed signs stating that work makes us free at the gates of concentration camps, they were not being facetious. They really believe that work liberates even if it is forced labour. Anyone thinking that there is more to life than work will be considered a clown and seen as unreliable by Germans.

Yet we're advised that Italians are really hard-working people, people who might even love work as much as the Germans (but maybe just don't find that it makes you free), and to suggest otherwise is slander that plays to stereotypes.

[Endovelico]

You missed the point of my post. When Germans placed signs stating that work makes us free at the gates of concentration camps, they were not being facetious. They really believe that work liberates even if it is forced labour. Anyone thinking that there is more to life than work will be considered a clown and seen as unreliable by Germans.

Yet we're advised that Italians are really hard-working people, people who might even love work as much as the Germans (but maybe just don't find that it makes you free), and to suggest otherwise is slander that plays to stereotypes.

Being hard-working is not the same thing as being obsessed with work, and Germans, as their "Arbeit macht frei" sign shows, feel they can impose on others their obsessive view on work. Unfortunately for us far too many Germans still think they are superior to all other peoples, and that their will must be respected and obeyed. And this is not Angela Merkel alone. Peer Steinbrück's - the social democratic candidate in the September elections - statement that Italians had elected two clowns (Grippo and Berlusconi) shows how arrogant Germans of all ideologies really are. I may agree that those two politicians are indeed clowns, but the way Peer Steinbrück said it makes it totally unacceptable. I really doubt Germans will ever be tolerant of other people and other people's ideas and ways, and that's why I think that Southern European countries should go their own separate way, and form a new economic and political union based on the Mediterranean region. Including Turkey, Lebanon, Israel and any northern African country with a secular regime and government.

[Endovelico]

Beppe Grillo's movement may not be what some people think.

El ‘virus’ de Beppe Grillo amenaza con contagiar Europa

“¿Diputado Di Battista?”. “Qué diputado ni diputado. Soy Alessandro. Llámame ciudadano Alessandro. Como durante la Revolución francesa. Nosotros somos el pueblo y lo que estamos haciendo aquí es la revolución”. La revolución italiana echa a andar de la mano de 54 senadores y 108 diputados, representantes de una formación que no quiere ser partido: sin sede, sin secretario ni cúpula, sin portavoces ni congresos, el Movimiento 5 Estrellas cosechó el 25,5% de los votos. Un ejército de perfectos desconocidos que en sus filas ha alistado a investigadores desempleados, teleoperadoras, geólogos, abogados, recién licenciados, biólogos con trabajos precarios, enfermeras, profesores de instituto y maestros. Algo que en la mente del inspirador del movimiento, Beppe Grillo, no representa a la sociedad civil, sino que es la sociedad civil. Sin intermediarios, directamente servida en los escaños del Parlamento.

Alessandro di Battista es uno de sus rostros: 34 años, máster en Derechos Humanos, hijo de ama de casa y empresario. Fue cooperante en América Latina y publicó una investigación sobre los sicarios del narcotráfico. “Tengo dos años más que la media de nuestros parlamentarios; el 88% somos licenciados, muchos han vivido en el extranjero y 4 de cada 10 son mujeres. No tenemos nada que ver con los políticos de profesión, con los ladrones”. Ambos conceptos son sinónimos para él. “Para mí la política es un servicio. Me siento como si me hubieran hecho un contrato de trabajo temporal: cinco años para cambiar el país. Estamos en guerra: la gente contra la oligarquía. Nuestro virus se va a difundir por Europa”.

(...)

Free translation:

"Deputy Di Battista?". "What deputy. I'm Alessandro. Call me citizen Alessandro.Like during the French Revolution. We are the people and what we are doing here is the revolution". The Italian revolution starts by the hand of 54 senators and 108 deputies, representatives of an association which does not want to be a party: without headquarters, secretary or direction, without speakers or conferences, the Movement 5 Stars won 25.5% of the votes. A band of complete strangers which has enlisted unemployed researchers, telecom operators, geologists, lawyers, recent graduates, biologists in precarious jobs, nurses and teachers. Something that in the mind of the movement’s inspirator, Beppe Grillo, does not represent civil society, but is the civil society itself. Without intermediaries, directly represented in Parliament.

Alessandro di Battista is one of their faces: 34 years old, with a Masters in Human Rights, the son of a housewife and an entrepreneur. He joined a cooperation organization in Latin America and published a research on drug lords. "I am two years older than our average MPs, 88% of whom are graduates, many have lived abroad and 4 out of 10 are women. We have nothing to do with professional politicians, with thieves". They are both the same to him. "For me, politics is a service. I feel as if I had made a temporary employment contract: five years to change the country. We are at war: the people against the oligarchy. Our virus is going to spread across Europe.”

http://internacional.elpais.com/interna ... 84222.html

[Typhoon]

Stereotype much?

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

You missed the point of my post. When Germans placed signs stating that work makes us free at the gates of concentration camps, they were not being facetious. They really believe that work liberates even if it is forced labour. Anyone thinking that there is more to life than work will be considered a clown and seen as unreliable by Germans.

Stereotype much?

I think that it was YMix who observed that the Greeks and others should be angry: they've been lied to and misled by their political and business classes.

Anyways, taking the easy route and blaming outsiders for problems mostly of one's own making, rather than engaging in self-introspection, is as old as human history. So there is no lack of company.

[Endovelico]

Stereotype much?

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

You missed the point of my post. When Germans placed signs stating that work makes us free at the gates of concentration camps, they were not being facetious. They really believe that work liberates even if it is forced labour. Anyone thinking that there is more to life than work will be considered a clown and seen as unreliable by Germans.

Stereotype much?

I think that it was YMix who observed that the Greeks and others should be angry: they've been lied to and misled by their political and business classes.

Anyways, taking the easy route and blaming outsiders for problems mostly of one's own making, rather than engaging in self-introspection, is as old as human history. So there is no lack of company.

It's not a matter of "either...or...". We are partly to blame for some of our problems, and our European partners bear at least as much blame as we do. But while we are paying the price for our share of the blame, our partners try to appear perfectly virginal and blameless, and refuse to pay their share. The EEC was based on the understanding that poorer countries would agree to freedom of trade in exchange for richer countries assisting the poorer ones becoming more competitive. Only free trade was achieved while poorer countries were left to achieve competitiveness strictly on their own. Simply put, we were swindled.

[Sparky]

Stereotype much?

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

You missed the point of my post. When Germans placed signs stating that work makes us free at the gates of concentration camps, they were not being facetious. They really believe that work liberates even if it is forced labour. Anyone thinking that there is more to life than work will be considered a clown and seen as unreliable by Germans.

Stereotype much?

I think that it was YMix who observed that the Greeks and others should be angry: they've been lied to and misled by their political and business classes.

Anyways, taking the easy route and blaming outsiders for problems mostly of one's own making, rather than engaging in self-introspection, is as old as human history. So there is no lack of company.

It's not a matter of "either...or...". We are partly to blame for some of our problems, and our European partners bear at least as much blame as we do. But while we are paying the price for our share of the blame, our partners try to appear perfectly virginal and blameless, and refuse to pay their share. The EEC was based on the understanding that poorer countries would agree to freedom of trade in exchange for richer countries assisting the poorer ones becoming more competitive. Only free trade was achieved while poorer countries were left to achieve competitiveness strictly on their own. Simply put, we were swindled.

Huh. This again. "You" collectively received hundreds of billions of Euros in assistance from net contributing nations, for decades. "You" have free and unfettered access to "our" markets.

"You" were swindled? After all that largesse and opportunity given to "you"? I can only put this down to a life-long affinity to PCP.

[Endovelico]

"You" collectively received hundreds of billions of Euros in assistance from net contributing nations, for decades. "You" have free and unfettered access to "our" markets.

"You" were swindled? After all that largesse and opportunity given to "you"? I can only put this down to a life-long affinity to PCP.

European funds are mostly for infrastructures such as roads, bridges and railways, school and hospital buildings. But they may not be used for productive purposes, such as equipment or technology. While the allowed investments are important, what we need is higher-tech productive capacity. Also, as far as Portugal is concerned, those European funds represented at best 1.5% of GDP in any given year. Interesting, but hardly enough to allow us to catch up with our more competitive partners. What we needed from them - and got too little of it - was state-of-the-art technology, know-how, specialized training, direct investment in productive capacity. But that would have helped us becoming more competitive, something our "partners" didn't want to encourage. What they wanted was a license to sell us their stuff, not the other way around.

[noddy]

"You" collectively received hundreds of billions of Euros in assistance from net contributing nations, for decades. "You" have free and unfettered access to "our" markets.

"You" were swindled? After all that largesse and opportunity given to "you"? I can only put this down to a life-long affinity to PCP.

European funds are mostly for infrastructures such as roads, bridges and railways, school and hospital buildings. But they may not be used for productive purposes, such as equipment or technology. While the allowed investments are important, what we need is higher-tech productive capacity. Also, as far as Portugal is concerned, those European funds represented at best 1.5% of GDP in any given year. Interesting, but hardly enough to allow us to catch up with our more competitive partners. What we needed from them - and got too little of it - was state-of-the-art technology, know-how, specialized training, direct investment in productive capacity. But that would have helped us becoming more competitive, something our "partners" didn't want to encourage. What they wanted was a license to sell us their stuff, not the other way around.

i take it you will be giving your job away to a young portugese who needs it any day now ?

its very selfish of you to preserve your own income you know.

[Endovelico]

"You" collectively received hundreds of billions of Euros in assistance from net contributing nations, for decades. "You" have free and unfettered access to "our" markets.

"You" were swindled? After all that largesse and opportunity given to "you"? I can only put this down to a life-long affinity to PCP.

European funds are mostly for infrastructures such as roads, bridges and railways, school and hospital buildings. But they may not be used for productive purposes, such as equipment or technology. While the allowed investments are important, what we need is higher-tech productive capacity. Also, as far as Portugal is concerned, those European funds represented at best 1.5% of GDP in any given year. Interesting, but hardly enough to allow us to catch up with our more competitive partners. What we needed from them - and got too little of it - was state-of-the-art technology, know-how, specialized training, direct investment in productive capacity. But that would have helped us becoming more competitive, something our "partners" didn't want to encourage. What they wanted was a license to sell us their stuff, not the other way around.

i take it you will be giving your job away to a young portugese who needs it any day now ?

its very selfish of you to preserve your own income you know.

I'm sure there is a point to this comment of yours, but I must confess I fail to see what it is... I have said often enough - but it doesn't register with some people - that we paid our fees in advance, when we accepted freeing trade with our more competitive partners. By doing so we knew that our trade would become unbalanced and that therefore our external debt would increase. But we had expected those partners who would have an immediate benefit from the freeing of trade would assist us becoming more competitive and thus be able to balance trade, to everybody's advantage. We were wrong. Our kind partners only wanted to get richer at our expense, and were quite willing to cheat and lie in order to get things their way.

[noddy]

im not aware of any system anywhere anytime that did what you think should have happend and im so unaware of this i cant even believe you can consider it the obvious and correct thing to do.

this crosses capitalist,communist,religious,guild the whole shebang.. noone ever has made the "alternative supplier" more competitive and destroyed their own livelihoods.

secondly, the asians - china,south korea, japan etc all just took the western industrialization and science made themselves competitive .. why is that.. how is that..

[Endovelico]

im not aware of any system anywhere anytime that did what you think should have happend and im so unaware of this i cant even believe you can consider it the obvious and correct thing to do.

this crosses capitalist,communist,religious,guild the whole shebang.. noone ever has made the "alternative supplier" more competitive and destroyed their own livelihoods.

secondly, the asians - china,south korea, japan etc all just took the western industrialization and science made themselves competitive .. why is that.. how is that..

You forget that the European countries signed a treaty - the Treaty of Rome - in which preamble such solidarity and mutual assistance was clearly expressed as an objective of the treaty. This was no simple free trade agreement which would have justified the each man for himself attitude. To get at each other's throats we wouldn't have needed a treaty and all the talk of "union".

As far as the Asian countries you mentioned are concerned, do not forget that their strategic importance to the US allowed them to export freely whatever they produced while strongly restricting imports. It certainly made it easier for them to grow and become competitive, but we weren't allowed such a thing in Europe.

[noddy]

solidarity and mutual assistance is wet wishy washy dribble without specifics, the sort of thing corporate mission statements say.

unless it had specific bullet points on technology sharing etc, its only toilet paper.

[Endovelico]

solidarity and mutual assistance is wet wishy washy dribble without specifics, the sort of thing corporate mission statements say.

unless it had specific bullet points on technology sharing etc, its only toilet paper.

DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,

RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,

AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,

RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,

ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,

DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,

INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts,

HAVE DECIDED to create a European Economic Community...

As you see, the preamble to the Treaty of Rome clearly indicates that growth and development of all parties was a common objective to be achieved by pooling resources. That's what we signed, but what we got was a "each man for himself" situation. As I said before, we were swindled by our partners and now we should give them a taste of their own medicine by not paying what they say we owe...

[Torchwood]

Stereotype much?

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that there is a big difference between criticizing someone in the press and sending them to forced labour camps and gas chambers.

You missed the point of my post. When Germans placed signs stating that work makes us free at the gates of concentration camps, they were not being facetious. They really believe that work liberates even if it is forced labour. Anyone thinking that there is more to life than work will be considered a clown and seen as unreliable by Germans.

A good socialist like you indulging in nationalistic stereotypes?

Yet I recall that you didn't like the sweeping simplistic categorisation of Italy = S. Switzerland (Viva Padania) + North North Africa on another thread...