You are the one talking about imposition of ideology through force, i.e. fascism. Explain how that is preferable to democracy, or why something is only "disguised as democracy" because you happen to disagree with it.Endovelico wrote:Why are my sports analogies not adequate? Because you think that religion is a more serious thing than sport? Because by looking at my analogy you realize how ridiculous is your effort to try and justify imposing a religious bias disguised as democracy?Ibrahim wrote:I'm not indulging your efforts to backpedal from your fascist statements. Your disdain for democracy and taste for authoritarian violence will be remembered more than your rambling attempt at sports analogies.Endo wrote:Chicken! Can't answer the argument and decided to retreat?...
Turkey
Re: Turkey
- Endovelico
- Posts: 3038
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Turkey
Well, Ibrahim, I know you are a lot smarter than that. You figure it out. Go back to the sports analogies. They may make it clearer for you, if you are at all interested in thinking clear about this.Ibrahim wrote:You are the one talking about imposition of ideology through force, i.e. fascism. Explain how that is preferable to democracy, or why something is only "disguised as democracy" because you happen to disagree with it.Endovelico wrote:Why are my sports analogies not adequate? Because you think that religion is a more serious thing than sport? Because by looking at my analogy you realize how ridiculous is your effort to try and justify imposing a religious bias disguised as democracy?Ibrahim wrote:I'm not indulging your efforts to backpedal from your fascist statements. Your disdain for democracy and taste for authoritarian violence will be remembered more than your rambling attempt at sports analogies.Endo wrote:Chicken! Can't answer the argument and decided to retreat?...
- monster_gardener
- Posts: 5334
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
Are there limits even for majorities?
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.Ibrahim wrote:Nope. My reply covered everything relevant.Endovelico wrote:You missed the rest of my argument:Ibrahim wrote:Not according to you. You want to impose your ideology on other people with force if necessary, heedless of democratic institutions. This is a complete lack of respect and a violation of human rights.Endovelico wrote:Mutual respect is an essential part of community life
If a society legislates these laws through a democratically elected government then what right do you have to overthrow their laws and impose your own with violence just because you disagree? Again, you are advocating nothing but fascism based on your personal subjective preferences.Ban alcohol, cover your face, punish fornication...
The minaret ban is valid, if vaguely racist. Torture is another order of magnitude, but nobody is talking about torture here. You want the military to overthrow the government because people might have to hear prayers in schools.The fact that religion and politics have been linked in the past does not mean that it is good or should continue being so in the present. There was a time when people used torture as a widely accepted way to find out whether someone was guilty of a crime. Should we continue torturing?... Or is torture unacceptable only because the majority of the people now disagree with it?... Is it right for the Swiss (or was it the Austrians?) to ban minarets in mosques, just because a majority object to those outside symbols of a religion they dislike?...
A majority for torture or for banning minarets would seem, according to your stated views, an acceptable basis to implement them. Is that so?...
False. You declared Turkish democracy invalid because it doesn't conform to youBy the way, I am a weird sort of fascist, who wishes to protect minorities against the intolerance of the majority...
I think I'd file your views more with the Maoists torching monasteries and engineering famines in Tibet. But your persistent efforts to divert the discussion from prayer in schools to mass murder and torture are noted and appreciated.In your view it would seem it was legitimate to persecute Jews in Nazi Germany, because the majority agreed to it...
Wow!The minaret ban is valid,
Filling that for future reference.
Thanks for the warning of what to expect in Eurabia or elsewhere if the Islamist Muslims get dominance ..........
Banning of church bells as prescribed in Sharia is to be expected for a start...
Ad IMO continuing right up to the rest of the crap rules historically seen in Sharia Muslim regimes......
You say torture is another order of magnitude but does that mean it is not legitimate for a majority to enact?
Or only vaguely whatever..........
So how about the death penalty for apostasy to another religion including atheism.........
Especially given that Muslims believe that we are all born good Muslims* but that our parents and others pervert us into being infidel Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Pagans, Shintos, Sikhs, Zoroastrians etc., can not ALL Non-Muslims be considered apostates........
*Rather than Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkeys.......
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
- monster_gardener
- Posts: 5334
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
Turkey, Not Chicken........
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, Endo.Endovelico wrote:Ibrahim wrote:No. We are talking about the Turkish state, which at present has a democratically elected government led by an admitted religious conservative.Endovelico wrote:Let's look at it on a different sphere
Chicken! Can't answer the argument and decided to retreat?...
But with all due respect, the fowl should be a Turkey rather than a Chicken.........
Your Daffy Friend................ducking
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Re: Turkey
Now the pro-Erdogan AKP rallies are gathering.
- Endovelico
- Posts: 3038
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Turkey
Certainly all very spontaneous... A Turkish Nuremberg rally... How do you say Parteitag in Turkish?...Ibrahim wrote:Now the pro-Erdogan AKP rallies are gathering.
Re: Turkey
So the AKP rally is Nazis, but the CHP and DP backed protests were not Nazis? Or is everything Nazis?
Are these guys Nazis?
Are these guys Nazis?
- Nonc Hilaire
- Posts: 6235
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am
Re: Turkey
Evidently much of Erdogan's support is manufactured out of Adobe.
http://inagist.com/all/343935801731735552/
http://inagist.com/all/343935801731735552/
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: Turkey
That pic was 'shopped, but I'm not sure that this means that "much" of AKP support is fictitious. They did win an election in 2011 with %50 of the popular vote.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Evidently much of Erdogan's support is manufactured out of Adobe.
http://inagist.com/all/343935801731735552/
- Endovelico
- Posts: 3038
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Turkey
It shows the type of mind Erdogan has - a truly fascist mind. Manipulation, intimidation, state violence, oppression of the minorities, all components of your view of "democratic" power, which Lenin (another actual fascist) called "dictatorship of the proletariat"...Ibrahim wrote:That pic was 'shopped, but I'm not sure that this means that "much" of AKP support is fictitious. They did win an election in 2011 with %50 of the popular vote.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Evidently much of Erdogan's support is manufactured out of Adobe.
http://inagist.com/all/343935801731735552/
Re: Turkey
hang a tick, im really getting confused with the labels now - fascist or sharia ?
anyway, got to love them ~50% magorities because both sides can claim legitimacy due to the swinging vote.
anyway, got to love them ~50% magorities because both sides can claim legitimacy due to the swinging vote.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Turkey
He won several free and fair elections and has successfully governed Turkey through economic growth and social liberalization for ten years. You want some army to overthrow his government because of your personal preferences. You are clearly the fascist. If you actually had any power your violence and discrimination would dwarf anything from the AKP government. Fortunately you're a nobody who only cheers for fascism.Endovelico wrote:It shows the type of mind Erdogan has - a truly fascist mind.Ibrahim wrote:That pic was 'shopped, but I'm not sure that this means that "much" of AKP support is fictitious. They did win an election in 2011 with %50 of the popular vote.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Evidently much of Erdogan's support is manufactured out of Adobe.
http://inagist.com/all/343935801731735552/
Re: Turkey
People call AKP "Islamist," which is Western newspeak for "they are savages, we can/should murder them at will." It has no basis in reality. The protesters are actually on about Erdogan's micromanagement and heavy-handedness, which are valid criticisms. There are no new religious laws, only the repeal of older anti-religious laws.noddy wrote:hang a tick, im really getting confused with the labels now - fascist or sharia ?
Like US elections.anyway, got to love them ~50% magorities because both sides can claim legitimacy due to the swinging vote.
- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11744
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Turkey
.
NYT : Turkish Liberals Turn Their Backs on Erdogan
Erdogan's revolution was a FAKE one .. had not the support of (overwhelming) Turkish people
Erdogan mistake was to fall into western trap, (silly idea of) countering our beloved Persia
Turkey and Iran will be the powerhouse to push the colonial beast of the Middle Eastern turf
Now, Turkey will enter a destabilized, unknown future with a war on the border that nobody knows where will end .. unwise
Ibrahim, now is the time (for Erdogan) to flip, flip to Iran side
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NYT : Turkish Liberals Turn Their Backs on Erdogan
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“The Gezi Park-Taksim thing has been the breaking point for the left,” said Cengiz Candar, a popular columnist who once supported Mr. Erdogan . .
“It’s not us that changed,” he added. “We remain as democrats; we want to extend individual liberties.”
As Mr. Erdogan rose to power, many liberals, unlike members of Turkey’s old secular elite, who worried about a hidden Islamist agenda, overlooked Mr. Erdogan’s religious roots. They saw his faith in the context of personal freedom, not as a threat to Turkey’s secular tradition. They embraced him for his pursuit of European Union membership, now stalled, and for securing civilian authority over the military, whose influence had been pre-eminent in Turkey.
Turks were joined by many Europeans and Americans, including President Obama, who embraced the democratic reforms that Mr. Erdogan implemented. Now, many of those onetime supporters say Mr. Erdogan and his party have taken a decisive turn toward authoritarianism, leaving them to face a period of self-reflection.
“I was one of the European liberals who supported A.K.P. policies,” said Joost Lagendijk, a former member of the European Parliament and columnist who lives in Turkey, referring to the Turkish initials of Mr. Erdogan’s party. “There was a lot of sympathy for the reforms they were implementing.”
Mr. Lagendijk said that he was never an ideological bedfellow of the A.K.P., but that he was attracted by Mr. Erdogan’s early pragmatism and by his support for constitutional changes to secure individual liberties and advances in rights for Turkey’s Kurdish minority.
“I’m a Green, I’m a liberal,” he said. “I’m not conservative or religious, but it didn’t matter.”
more @ link
.
Erdogan's revolution was a FAKE one .. had not the support of (overwhelming) Turkish people
Erdogan mistake was to fall into western trap, (silly idea of) countering our beloved Persia
Turkey and Iran will be the powerhouse to push the colonial beast of the Middle Eastern turf
Now, Turkey will enter a destabilized, unknown future with a war on the border that nobody knows where will end .. unwise
Ibrahim, now is the time (for Erdogan) to flip, flip to Iran side
.
Re: Turkey
Probably the best thing for the AKP (and probably Turkey as a whole) now would be for Erdoğan not to run for president and for some other AKP leader like Ali Babacan to be the party's nominee for becoming the next prime minister.
Interesting tidbit: I just learned that "ğ" is more or less silent in Turkish.
Interesting tidbit: I just learned that "ğ" is more or less silent in Turkish.
cultivate a white rose
Re: Turkey
Yeah, its kind of a phlemmy "h" sound. Air-do-hahn.Azrael wrote:Probably the best thing for the AKP (and probably Turkey as a whole) now would be for Erdoğan not to run for president and for some other AKP leader like Ali Babacan to be the party's nominee for becoming the next prime minister.
Interesting tidbit: I just learned that "ğ" is more or less silent in Turkish.
AKP will lose an election eventually, regardless of whether or not Erdogan runs. If the elections start getting sketchy, or are suspended, or you get into other Putin-esque hijinks of "okay, I'm the secretary of state now and my minion is the new 'leader'" then I'd start to worry.
Atadönme?
Article on Ataturk's ethnic origins by Hillel Halkin in the New York Sun
People should read the whole thing. It isn't very long. It seems almost certain that Ataturk's father was Dönmeh. Dönmeh (Turkish: dönme) refers to a group of crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey who openly affiliated with Islam and secretly practiced a form of Judaism called Sabbateanism. The group originated during and soon after the era of Sabbatai Zevi, a 17th-century Jewish kabbalist who claimed to be the Messiah and eventually pretended to become a Muslim in order to escape punishment by the Sultan Mehmed IV.
People should read the whole thing. It isn't very long. It seems almost certain that Ataturk's father was Dönmeh. Dönmeh (Turkish: dönme) refers to a group of crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey who openly affiliated with Islam and secretly practiced a form of Judaism called Sabbateanism. The group originated during and soon after the era of Sabbatai Zevi, a 17th-century Jewish kabbalist who claimed to be the Messiah and eventually pretended to become a Muslim in order to escape punishment by the Sultan Mehmed IV.
cultivate a white rose
Re: Atadönme?
Azrael wrote:Article on Ataturk's ethnic origins by Hillel Halkin in the New York Sun
People should read the whole thing. It isn't very long. It seems almost certain that Ataturk's father was Dönmeh. Dönmeh (Turkish: dönme) refers to a group of crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey who openly affiliated with Islam and secretly practiced a form of Judaism called Sabbateanism. The group originated during and soon after the era of Sabbatai Zevi, a 17th-century Jewish kabbalist who claimed to be the Messiah and eventually pretended to become a Muslim in order to escape punishment by the Sultan Mehmed IV.
I don't think his possible family history sheds much light on either his own vaguely anti-religious views or Turkish politics in general. Time moved on. When people talk about "Kemalism" all they really mean now is the army overthrowing governments that are "too religious." That's not how democracy functions in the modern world, and Turkey is far from the most religious state you can name, even after a decade of an "Islamist" administration.
Which is not to say that these inquiries aren't historically interesting.
- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11744
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Atadönme?
Ibrahim wrote:Azrael wrote:Article on Ataturk's ethnic origins by Hillel Halkin in the New York Sun
People should read the whole thing. It isn't very long. It seems almost certain that Ataturk's father was Dönmeh. Dönmeh (Turkish: dönme) refers to a group of crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey who openly affiliated with Islam and secretly practiced a form of Judaism called Sabbateanism. The group originated during and soon after the era of Sabbatai Zevi, a 17th-century Jewish kabbalist who claimed to be the Messiah and eventually pretended to become a Muslim in order to escape punishment by the Sultan Mehmed IV.
I don't think his possible family history sheds much light on either his own vaguely anti-religious views or Turkish politics in general. Time moved on. When people talk about "Kemalism" all they really mean now is the army overthrowing governments that are "too religious." That's not how democracy functions in the modern world, and Turkey is far from the most religious state you can name, even after a decade of an "Islamist" administration.
Which is not to say that these inquiries aren't historically interesting.
.
Was told by a prominent Turkish scholar, Ottoman Sultans were just by name Muslims .. their mothers were pretty much all Christians girls who were brought into Harem and the kids were raised by the Christian mothers .. Those Ottoman Sultans, were, by name only, Khalifa .. Turks, from central Asia steps, had just became Muslims when they invaded and passed through Persia .. meaning .. Turkish tribes, Ottoman Sultans, has no deep relation to Islam, just ritual .. that is why, Islam missed the window of European enlightenment, the Sultans were either in Harem having fun or conquering land
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- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11744
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Turkey
.
In ordering a version of the Hong Qi missile, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may be telling Washington it no longer sees Turkey as Europe's front line state in the Middle East, . .
What is the meaning of Turkey buying Chinese "anti missile system" instead western one ? ? ?
It means, well down the road, the system is mainly for protecting Turkey from Western missiles and not from Eastern (Russian, Chinese, Iranian and and and)
.
In ordering a version of the Hong Qi missile, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may be telling Washington it no longer sees Turkey as Europe's front line state in the Middle East, . .
What is the meaning of Turkey buying Chinese "anti missile system" instead western one ? ? ?
It means, well down the road, the system is mainly for protecting Turkey from Western missiles and not from Eastern (Russian, Chinese, Iranian and and and)
.
Iran, which has experienced the headaches of politicized supply (or, to be more accurate, non-supply) of its S-300 missile defense system by Russia, is also reportedly considering the FD-2000 (its manufacturer, CPMIEC, was sanctioned by the United States for unspecified Iran-related transgressions presumably relating to Chinese willingness to transfer missile technology) ... but maybe Iran is thinking long and hard about the rumor that the fire control radar technology passed through Israel's hands on its way to China.
Apparently a Western marketing point steering Turkey away from Russian or Chinese systems was the argument that inoperability with NATO equipment would be a problem and the missile defense batteries would be sitting there without vital linkages to NATO theater-scale radar and missile-killing capabilities (though Greece, with an inventory of Russian S-300s, somehow managed to make do).
Well, maybe that's the point. Erdogan is implying he doesn't want to rely on the United States or NATO - which might demand Turkey's diplomatic and security subservience and NATO control over Turkish missile defense assets - to keep his missile defense system working, while exposing both missile sites and the radar facility to Iranian NATO-related wrath.
Perhaps Erdogan has abandoned his dreams of full partnership with NATO and the European Union, and doesn't see Turkey as Europe's front line state in the Middle East. He wants his own, independent missile defense capability to protect distinctly Turkish targets and manage his relationships with Iran and Syria on a more bilateral basis.
And as far as the People's Republic of China is concerned, it can mollify Iran with the observation that China, by stepping up and providing the system in place of Raytheon or a French/Italian consortium, was preventing the full integration of Turkey into the NATO missile defense bloc.
In which case, Turkey's name on the NATO membership rolls should include an asterisk denoting its special status. Or maybe it should be a red star.
.
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- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11744
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Turkey
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Erdogan could find a way out of this stalemate through joining axis comprising Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.
Iran is a great neighbor for Turkey, with long history of relations and a capability to improve Turkey’s relations with the rest of the Middle East.
Ibrahim, it ain't late , come home Afandi
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Erdogan could find a way out of this stalemate through joining axis comprising Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.
Iran is a great neighbor for Turkey, with long history of relations and a capability to improve Turkey’s relations with the rest of the Middle East.
Ibrahim, it ain't late , come home Afandi
.
Re: Turkey
I told you, Azari, leave me out of your empire building schemes. I live in Ontario, I'm at least three times removed from whatever neo-Achaemenid empire you're trying to build.
Regionally Turkey has re-aligned with the rest of the region in (diplomatic) opposition to Israel, but that's all and IDF commandos made the choice for Ergogan before he could.
Regionally Turkey has re-aligned with the rest of the region in (diplomatic) opposition to Israel, but that's all and IDF commandos made the choice for Ergogan before he could.
- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11744
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Turkey
Ibrahim wrote:.
I told you, Azari, leave me out of your empire building schemes. I live in Ontario, I'm at least three times removed from whatever neo-Achaemenid empire you're trying to build.
Regionally Turkey has re-aligned with the rest of the region in (diplomatic) opposition to Israel, but that's all and IDF commandos made the choice for Ergogan before he could.
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"neo-Achaemenid empire"
my question to you, Ibrahim, is : do you want Merkel, Hollande, Cameron, Obama to build "THE NEW ME" ? ?
Why not build THE NEW ME together, Turkey and Iran
Come on
.
Re: Turkey
Come meet the new Middle East, same as the old Middle East. But with different hats.