Charles Murray - Coming Apart

[Simple Minded]

http://www.hoover.org/multimedia/uncomm ... dge/113726

Watching this reminded me of the old redneck saying: "If you want a new idea, read an old book!"

Can the "good" zeitgeist of 60 years ago be recreated.... without the "bad" zeitgeist of 80 years ago preceding it?

[Enki]

http://www.hoover.org/multimedia/uncomm ... dge/113726

Watching this reminded me of the old redneck saying: "If you want a new idea, read an old book!"

Can the "good" zeitgeist of 60 years ago be recreated.... without the "bad" zeitgeist of 80 years ago preceding it?

The old is out because it isn't relevant to current circumstances. Lots of people are failing at their own goals because they cannot recognize that the paradigm has shifted.

Look at all the Union organizers organizing around jobs. They just don't get it. I asked one of the heads of SEIU 1199 what their plan was for when Rosie the Robot from the Jetsons was invented. She deflated and said, "I don't know."

[Parodite]

Maybe his book better covers things, but in the video... wtf does he want to say? He makes some weird claims, suggesting certain things without explaining them convincingly. Yea back in the good old days when guys were married and worked hard, when most people understood the virtues needed for the American project to work, when there was a civic society where people locally solved their problems together... and the welfare state didn't suck life out of life yet.

[Simple Minded]

Maybe his book better covers things, but in the video... wtf does he want to say? He makes some weird claims, suggesting certain things without explaining them convincingly. Yea back in the good old days when guys were married and worked hard, when most people understood the virtues needed for the American project to work, when there was a civic society where people locally solved their problems together... and the welfare state didn't suck life out of life yet.

It takes a village to raise a.... politician...?

[Ibrahim]

I think there is ample evidence that Murray is a fraud producing fringe propaganda disguised as scholarship. The guy's entire career is bankrolled by right wing think tanks, and all of this came out of the wash in the aftermath of The Bell Curve. Why would people seek out more from this clown?

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

another dead piglet to throw on the pile.....'>.........

"......Cities once had functional reasons for existing and those functional reasons convinced people to live there. Today they exist because people live there. It's backward and it fails to account for what will happen when the people decide to leave......"

Is he suggesting that America is failing because people don't want to work at it anymore? That's civilisational exhaustion and demoralisation on the fractal level:

The city's troubles are America's troubles. A thriving economy can support a welfare state, but a welfare state cannot be an economy. A country or a city needs a purpose that goes beyond providing services for populations that are incapable of doing the least smallest thing for themselves. Without that purpose, it is already a failed state.

Detroit exists to provide welfare for much of its population and to provide government jobs for the people taking care of them. And like those populations where generations collect welfare checks, shop with food stamps and aspire to no future other than the perpetuation of this way of life, the city that they live in has no future.

[Simple Minded]

I guess I missed the point once again....... Thankfully..... I'm not driving the boat.....

I thought Murray's point was as simple as "community creates culture!"

Which seems IMSMO, the whole reason that those who bet on politicians creating culture are always placing losing bets..... because they are mistaking effect for cause.

Granted, politicians and the MSM are always trying to create that illusion, so the deception is understandable.

Now if you want to argue that politicians reflect culture, I will grant you that. What other choice do they have? They are weather vanes.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

It's a good book, although all it does is illustrate something that everyone already knows. Murray focuses his study on white Americans in order to control for factors like historical discrimination, recent immigration, etc. Basically the book is a data-driven extrapolation of Putnam's Bowling Alone, demonstrating quite clearly that the breakdown of community institutions, marriage & family, religious participation, etc over the last 50 years have coincided in inverse proportion with several measures of economic and social success among the lower classes. Among the upper-middle class, however, while community involvement, divorce & single parentage, etc went downhill for a time after the 60s, they stabilized during the 80s and have either remained flat ever since or even improved. (he creates two data sets, eliminating extremely rich and extremely poor, focusing on the broad swath of America that is covered by lower-middle an upper-middle class)

Interestingly, and contrary to common belief, religious belief and church attendance among the lower classes cratered after 1963 (he uses the Kennedy assassination as his starting point) and has continued to plummet, while among the upper middle class the decline has been much shallower, mostly leveled out after the 80s, and is holding at a much higher level than among the lower classes. Contrary to the image of poor schmucks clinging to their Bibles and the urban elites looking down their noses at the superstitious poor, belief and participation among the upper-middle class is much higher than among the lower-middle class.

Murray's conclusions are as non-racist as you can get, so unbunch your panties, Ibs. He demonstrates that the same kind of cultural declines people associate with African Americans has also happened among whites on the lower half of the socioeconomic ladder, the situation with blacks simply being more noticeable because a greater proportion of them, as a group, are on the bottom half of that ladder.

The book is almost all data, and his only real suggestion or value judgment is that the upper classes begin to "preach what they practice". For example, not wanting to judge, it is fashionable to say that single-parentage is a perfectly acceptable family choice, although the numbers show that they don't practice it themselves. The book becomes redundant after a short period of time, because all the data is correlated, but by the end of it the trends are undeniable.

[Ibrahim]

Murray's conclusions are as non-racist as you can get, so unbunch your panties, Ibs.

The Bell Curve, to which I was referring, is a widely reviled fraud, was funded in part by dubious organizations, and is beloved among contemporary racists as a pseudo-academic basis for some of their theories. My point was that, having seen Murray's break-out act, who would want seconds? Its quite possible that Coming Apart isn't racist, I don't really care.

Can I use the "unbunch your panites" line next time you throw a tantrum and quit the forum?

[Enki]

Interestingly, and contrary to common belief, religious belief and church attendance among the lower classes cratered after 1963 (he uses the Kennedy assassination as his starting point) and has continued to plummet, while among the upper middle class the decline has been much shallower, mostly leveled out after the 80s, and is holding at a much higher level than among the lower classes. Contrary to the image of poor schmucks clinging to their Bibles and the urban elites looking down their noses at the superstitious poor, belief and participation among the upper-middle class is much higher than among the lower-middle class.

That's because church attendance for the elite is as much about business development as it is about spirituality. I mean the elite are certainly spiritual and enjoy the respite from mundane matters. But it's also a rich and robust network and they want to remain involved with it.

The main difference between the lower classes and upper classes is a networking culture. The working class disdains networking as 'social climbing'. While for the wealthy urban elite, it's just being social. The working class cannot stand people who categorize people by potential benefit and utility maximization, while the wealthy don't have time for anything that doesn't maximize utility. I come from the working class, but I am finding myself having to be ever more selective about who I associate with, not because I think I am better than someone, just because every time I do anything I have to think, "Will this take time away from my work or my family?"

[Ibrahim]

That's because church attendance for the elite is as much about business development as it is about spirituality.

Plus min-wage, part-time employees often have to work on Sunday (or Friday/Saturday).

[Nonc Hilaire]

Church attendance has always been a gateway for upward mobility, and acculturates people into the middle class.

[Enki]

That's because church attendance for the elite is as much about business development as it is about spirituality.

Plus min-wage, part-time employees often have to work on Sunday (or Friday/Saturday).

In my experience with working class folk, church is mostly just boring.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Interestingly, and contrary to common belief, religious belief and church attendance among the lower classes cratered after 1963 (he uses the Kennedy assassination as his starting point) and has continued to plummet, while among the upper middle class the decline has been much shallower, mostly leveled out after the 80s, and is holding at a much higher level than among the lower classes. Contrary to the image of poor schmucks clinging to their Bibles and the urban elites looking down their noses at the superstitious poor, belief and participation among the upper-middle class is much higher than among the lower-middle class.

That's because church attendance for the elite is as much about business development as it is about spirituality. I mean the elite are certainly spiritual and enjoy the respite from mundane matters. But it's also a rich and robust network and they want to remain involved with it.

Yeah, that's his point. Not that holding religious beliefs makes people more successful. Church attendance seems to rub off a bit however, because the trends were similar when people were questioned not just about their attendance, but about their beliefs.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Murray's conclusions are as non-racist as you can get, so unbunch your panties, Ibs.

The Bell Curve, to which I was referring, is a widely reviled fraud, was funded in part by dubious organizations, and is beloved among contemporary racists as a pseudo-academic basis for some of their theories. My point was that, having seen Murray's break-out act, who would want seconds? Its quite possible that Coming Apart isn't racist, I don't really care.

Can I use the "unbunch your panites" line next time you throw a tantrum and quit the forum?

Haha, like you've read The Bell Curve. You heard it was racist from someone like you who thinks everything is racist, read a few articles to form your opinion, and spout off like you're familiar with the material. Wow, I must be a psychic reader to see into others' lives with such accuracy.

[Ibrahim]

Church attendance has always been a gateway for upward mobility, and acculturates people into the middle class.

This is the networking thing Enki is talking about. But speaking as a guy from Vancouver, if you really want to cement yourself into the middle class start attending a Sikh temple.

[Ibrahim]

Murray's conclusions are as non-racist as you can get, so unbunch your panties, Ibs.

The Bell Curve, to which I was referring, is a widely reviled fraud, was funded in part by dubious organizations, and is beloved among contemporary racists as a pseudo-academic basis for some of their theories. My point was that, having seen Murray's break-out act, who would want seconds? Its quite possible that Coming Apart isn't racist, I don't really care.

Can I use the "unbunch your panites" line next time you throw a tantrum and quit the forum?

Haha, like you've read The Bell Curve.

I'm sure you've read it.

someone like you who thinks everything is racist

"People are too 'politically correct' I tells ya. Its getting so that you can't write books about the measurable inferiority of certain races without people callin' it racist. And you can't say that its a good thing black kids get shot because people call it racist. And you can't joke about gunning down ethnics during a race war without people callin' it racist. And you can't support ethnic cleansing without people callin' it racist. And......"

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Murray's conclusions are as non-racist as you can get, so unbunch your panties, Ibs.

The Bell Curve, to which I was referring, is a widely reviled fraud, was funded in part by dubious organizations, and is beloved among contemporary racists as a pseudo-academic basis for some of their theories. My point was that, having seen Murray's break-out act, who would want seconds? Its quite possible that Coming Apart isn't racist, I don't really care.

Can I use the "unbunch your panites" line next time you throw a tantrum and quit the forum?

Haha, like you've read The Bell Curve.

I'm sure you've read it.

someone like you who thinks everything is racist

"People are too 'politically correct' I tells ya. Its getting so that you can't write books about the measurable inferiority of certain races without people callin' it racist. And you can't say that its a good thing black kids get shot because people call it racist. And you can't joke about gunning down ethnics during a race war without people callin' it racist. And you can't support ethnic cleansing without people callin' it racist. And......"

Haha, how did I know?

[Ibrahim]

The same way you knew that everyone who disagrees with you is evil and hates freedom? You probably have vast powers. Use them for good, or to secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children. Whatever.

[Mr. Perfect]

I'm coming to the conclusion many people even on this forum have no concept of segmentation.