Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

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Demon of Undoing
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Endovelico wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Thou shall love your neighbor as yourself is not barking up a tree nor is it senseless.
No, but neither is it particularly religious. Just look at all the love Sunny Muslims pour on Shiite Muslims, and vice-versa, or Hindus on Muslims and vice-versa, or Catholics on Protestants in Northern Ireland, and vice-versa, etc., etc., etc...
It is explicitly religious, in that the first person to mandate this was doing so precisely ( he believed) on the authority of God. Had he been doing it because he just felt like it, it would have been just another opinion.

You can doubt whether god actually said to act on such a statement, but you can't divorce it from the historic fact that such a statement is 100 % theology. What evil that ostensible Christians actually perpetrate on each other or upon nonbelievers is not a failure of the command, but a failure to follow it.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Parodite »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Tony shows great wisdom here. Belief in God is not an academic pronouncement, but rather a command decision which must be executed immediately each and every day.
What Tony says here translates to me more like a wise reminder of sorts: "Maybe God is dead/doesn't exist, but you still gotta kiss life's ass".

No matter what you think, believe, not believe... you will die eventually and won't be spared from some very painfull shitty stuff to happen to you and your loved ones, most probably.

Phrasing it as above of course isn't a problem for religious people who don't distinguish between God and Life, since for them they are the same. But granted, they are a minority. ;)
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Endovelico »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Thou shall love your neighbor as yourself is not barking up a tree nor is it senseless.
No, but neither is it particularly religious. Just look at all the love Sunny Muslims pour on Shiite Muslims, and vice-versa, or Hindus on Muslims and vice-versa, or Catholics on Protestants in Northern Ireland, and vice-versa, etc., etc., etc...
It is explicitly religious, in that the first person to mandate this was doing so precisely ( he believed) on the authority of God. Had he been doing it because he just felt like it, it would have been just another opinion.

You can doubt whether god actually said to act on such a statement, but you can't divorce it from the historic fact that such a statement is 100 % theology. What evil that ostensible Christians actually perpetrate on each other or upon nonbelievers is not a failure of the command, but a failure to follow it.
Do you actually believe that loving one's neighbour was unknown to our species before the good Samaritan parable?...

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." –Laozi

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." –Laozi

(According to Chinese traditions, Laozi lived in the 6th century BC)
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Goodies and sweets not from here

Post by Parodite »

Endovelico wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:You can doubt whether god actually said to act on such a statement, but you can't divorce it from the historic fact that such a statement is 100 % theology. What evil that ostensible Christians actually perpetrate on each other or upon nonbelievers is not a failure of the command, but a failure to follow it.
Do you actually believe that loving one's neighbour was unknown to our species before the good Samaritan parable?...

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." –Laozi

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." –Laozi

(According to Chinese traditions, Laozi lived in the 6th century BC)
A lot of damage has been done divorcing all kinds of goodies like love thy neighbor from the normal natural menu avaliable to us earthlings.

God, as the metaphysical container of all goodies and sweets, above and beyond life... with promises of a better life if not an after life, became a terrorist ass and enemy of life in general. Its followers mental, emotional and/or physical terrorists.

Worshipping such an otherly, divorced, exiled, imaginary God is psychotic, is perverse. Look with what paranoia and fear also on this list people try grabbing some lasts straws to keep the dead God alive.
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Time Bandits: Is Evil necessary for Free Will......

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Enki wrote:The reason it is difficult to prove the existence of God is because literally everything is evidence.
The existence of evil proves beyond any doubt the existence of God... God created Hitler so that he could do the holocaust so that people would see what evil is all about and therefore choose good instead of evil... The six million victims were just collateral damage... Anybody failing to understand this should be crucified...
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Endovelico.

The existence of evil proves beyond any doubt the existence of God...
That reminds me of this scene from the ending of "Time Bandits"........

Fw9IqUgGlzs
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Typhoon »

Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Odd. I've been an atheist as far back as I can remember.

When people do occasionally talk to me about religion, I hold my peace, but it's no different to me than them talking about the existence of UFOs, vampires, ghosts, or our Lizard Overlords.

I'm with you on UFOs and ghosts. I got my doubts about vampires and Lizard Overlords (LG may be an outlier).

Not to wonder about all of which we are unaware is the greatest tragedy.

Life gets kind of boring if you only stick with hard data...... like the oceans rising at 0.1074536" +/- 0.0000001" per year...... ;)
I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.
~ R. P. Feynman
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Rationalist philosophers have, in every age, tried and miserably failed to come up with convincing and meaningful rational substitutes for the passionate, irrational, and functional myths they destroy. It goes like clockwork. A religion emerges out of a dark age and darker impulses to structure a mass of confused men into a society. In the late decadent phase of social formation, people denounce the traditional mythology as useless because it cannot be described in a series of rational propositions that correspond to measurements of the natural world (each time it occurs, these rationalists believe they are original and unprecedented). A brief period of rationalist triumphalism is immediately followed by the realization that people are bored, disillusioned, directionless, and suicidal. Various rational alternatives are suggested for the now irretrievably damaged social myth, all of them gaudy and ridiculous (some of the silly 'eco religions' and ersatz pseudopsychological new age crap are good examples). Failing that, secular symbols are grafted onto the existing mythology like Band-Aids. Unfortunately, Martin Luther King is no substitute for Moses, nor Steve Jobs for Prometheus, so the secular symbols are subject to far more scrutiny and are inherently more fragile and short-lived. Whereas the promise of heaven in the afterlife could be kept hidden from practical experience, the promise of progress and utopian futures engineered by human intention is quickly put to the test and found wanting. Cracks begin to show in the foundation as people realize they've gained freedom, but given up structure, acquired power, but forgotten any meaningful reason to exercise it. Too late, they realize they made a horrible mistake, and then the tide goes out. As the rationalists pick the through the rubble looking for seeds and roots to sustain them another day, the plantlike peasants return to the old religion, which outlasts its assailants in one form or another.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
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Richard Feynman: Artist & Physicist & Comedian

Post by monster_gardener »

Typhoon wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Odd. I've been an atheist as far back as I can remember.

When people do occasionally talk to me about religion, I hold my peace, but it's no different to me than them talking about the existence of UFOs, vampires, ghosts, or our Lizard Overlords.

I'm with you on UFOs and ghosts. I got my doubts about vampires and Lizard Overlords (LG may be an outlier).

Not to wonder about all of which we are unaware is the greatest tragedy.

Life gets kind of boring if you only stick with hard data...... like the oceans rising at 0.1074536" +/- 0.0000001" per year...... ;)
I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.
~ R. P. Feynman
Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Typhoon.

Actually Dr. Richard P. Feynman was also an artist specializing in Beautiful Women ;) /Nudes *
Nobel-winning physicist Richard Feynman — champion of scientific culture, graphic novel hero, crusader for integrity, holder of the key to science, adviser of future generations, bongo player — was a surprisingly gifted semi-secret artist. He started drawing at the age of 44 in 1962, shortly after developing the visual language for his famous Feynman diagrams, after a series of amicable arguments about art vs. science with his artist-friend Jirayr “Jerry” Zorthian — the same friend to whom Feynman’s timeless ode to a flower was in response. Eventually, the two agreed that they’d exchange lessons in art and science on alternate Sundays. Feynman went on to draw — everything from portraits of other prominent physicists and his children to sketches of strippers and very, very many female nudes — until the end of his life.
Feynmann also liked to relax in Strip Club bars and once defended the owner of one saying that it helped him relax after doing strenuous physics mental work ;) *

NOTE: The link below may be mildly NSFW

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/ ... -drawings/



*And no, I am NOT joking ;) .......... Well maybe a little bit... :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surely_You ... r._Feynman!

http://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Ad ... raipick-20

Also

http://www.amazon.com/Genius-Life-Scien ... 0679747044
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Ibrahim
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Thou shall love your neighbor as yourself is not barking up a tree nor is it senseless.
No, but neither is it particularly religious. Just look at all the love Sunny Muslims pour on Shiite Muslims, and vice-versa, or Hindus on Muslims and vice-versa, or Catholics on Protestants in Northern Ireland, and vice-versa, etc., etc., etc...
Or the way atheists butchered 100 million people in several decades. Just goes to show you.... something.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Left wing atheists.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Endovelico
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Thou shall love your neighbor as yourself is not barking up a tree nor is it senseless.
No, but neither is it particularly religious. Just look at all the love Sunny Muslims pour on Shiite Muslims, and vice-versa, or Hindus on Muslims and vice-versa, or Catholics on Protestants in Northern Ireland, and vice-versa, etc., etc., etc...
Or the way atheists butchered 100 million people in several decades. Just goes to show you.... something.
Ib, you will never learn. Atheists may have killed millions of people, but never in the name of atheism. Religious fanatics kill in the name of their God. Can you actually see the difference? I doubt it, but I will keep trying...
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Taboo »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Left wing atheists.
Yup. Totalitarian atheists, to be exact. Totalitarianism is to be feared and fought no matter what guise it hides itself. Atheism alone, uncoupled with a love of liberty, is not enough of an antidote.
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Endovelico
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Endovelico »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Rationalist philosophers have, in every age, tried and miserably failed to come up with convincing and meaningful rational substitutes for the passionate, irrational, and functional myths they destroy. It goes like clockwork. A religion emerges out of a dark age and darker impulses to structure a mass of confused men into a society. In the late decadent phase of social formation, people denounce the traditional mythology as useless because it cannot be described in a series of rational propositions that correspond to measurements of the natural world (each time it occurs, these rationalists believe they are original and unprecedented). A brief period of rationalist triumphalism is immediately followed by the realization that people are bored, disillusioned, directionless, and suicidal. Various rational alternatives are suggested for the now irretrievably damaged social myth, all of them gaudy and ridiculous (some of the silly 'eco religions' and ersatz pseudopsychological new age crap are good examples). Failing that, secular symbols are grafted onto the existing mythology like Band-Aids. Unfortunately, Martin Luther King is no substitute for Moses, nor Steve Jobs for Prometheus, so the secular symbols are subject to far more scrutiny and are inherently more fragile and short-lived. Whereas the promise of heaven in the afterlife could be kept hidden from practical experience, the promise of progress and utopian futures engineered by human intention is quickly put to the test and found wanting. Cracks begin to show in the foundation as people realize they've gained freedom, but given up structure, acquired power, but forgotten any meaningful reason to exercise it. Too late, they realize they made a horrible mistake, and then the tide goes out. As the rationalists pick the through the rubble looking for seeds and roots to sustain them another day, the plantlike peasants return to the old religion, which outlasts its assailants in one form or another.
Atheism and agnosticism require a certain degree of culture and intelligence. Otherwise it is (or at least atheism tends to be) as primitive as any typical religious feeling. To be clobbered on the head by someone shouting that God doesn't exist is no better than being clobbered by someone who does it in the name of God or Allah. As people acquire culture and knowledge they will tend to realize that while God may exist, He certainly cannot be anything like what religions say He is. There may be some social value in religious based ethics, but all the rest is so nonsensical that no reasonable person can ever believe it, as long as their brains are switched on and they are not functioning on automatic mode. Religious education is simply brainwashing and even intelligent (young) people may fall prey to it, but we are all under the obligation of looking at it in a more critical manner, once we grow up.

As to the need we all have for a reason to exist, it may be true. But the reasons religions give us are good only for the more primitive minds. I never found it difficult to find a reason to exist in a universe without a God. Being is a good enough reason to be. Existence is a good enough reason to exist. The universe is its own reason, and our part in it is absolutely meaningful. My body is made up of atoms and molecules generated in the core of stars, and my self-awareness is as much a part of that universe as those atoms. As long as the universe exists there will always be a self and a self-awareness, although it may be embodied somewhere else in a very different sort of rational being... We are afraid of nothingness, but there is no nothingness. Never, as long as the universe exists. What the hell are we afraid of?...
Simple Minded

Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Odd. I've been an atheist as far back as I can remember.

When people do occasionally talk to me about religion, I hold my peace, but it's no different to me than them talking about the existence of UFOs, vampires, ghosts, or our Lizard Overlords.

I'm with you on UFOs and ghosts. I got my doubts about vampires and Lizard Overlords (LG may be an outlier).

Not to wonder about all of which we are unaware is the greatest tragedy.

Life gets kind of boring if you only stick with hard data...... like the oceans rising at 0.1074536" +/- 0.0000001" per year...... ;)
I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.
~ R. P. Feynman
excellent example of a scientist having a mystical experience. Reminds me of my atheist brother describing his mystical experiences while deer hunting. Of course, as all good scientist know, the science is never settled.

I appreciate the fact that the author acknowledges his use of imagination. since none of us can prove all data continuously, we often accept what seems reasonable on faith.

A world without wonder and imagination, would be sad.

On the subject of scientists using imagination, and accepting data from others on faith as fact, the recent AGW mania resembles religion as much as the denial of the possibility of extra-terrestrial life, or any other extreme example.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Left wing atheists.
Number three on the 20th mass murderer list was a right wing as they come.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Typhoon »

Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Odd. I've been an atheist as far back as I can remember.

When people do occasionally talk to me about religion, I hold my peace, but it's no different to me than them talking about the existence of UFOs, vampires, ghosts, or our Lizard Overlords.

I'm with you on UFOs and ghosts. I got my doubts about vampires and Lizard Overlords (LG may be an outlier).

Not to wonder about all of which we are unaware is the greatest tragedy.

Life gets kind of boring if you only stick with hard data...... like the oceans rising at 0.1074536" +/- 0.0000001" per year...... ;)
I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.
~ R. P. Feynman
excellent example of a scientist having a mystical experience. Reminds me of my atheist brother describing his mystical experiences while deer hunting. Of course, as all good scientist know, the science is never settled.

I appreciate the fact that the author acknowledges his use of imagination. since none of us can prove all data continuously, we often accept what seems reasonable on faith.

A world without wonder and imagination, would be sad.
A sense of wonder and curiousity is what typically motivates individuals to become scientists.

Imagination, creativity, skill, and a prepared mind able to recognize the importance of an serendipitous event seem to be the prerequisites for great discoveries.
Simple Minded wrote: On the subject of scientists using imagination, and accepting data from others on faith as fact, the recent AGW mania resembles religion as much as the denial of the possibility of extra-terrestrial life, or any other extreme example.
Just as religion can be co-opted to serve special interests, so can science. However, it is then no longer science, but a appeal-to-presumed-authority belief system: scientism.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Thou shall love your neighbor as yourself is not barking up a tree nor is it senseless.
No, but neither is it particularly religious. Just look at all the love Sunny Muslims pour on Shiite Muslims, and vice-versa, or Hindus on Muslims and vice-versa, or Catholics on Protestants in Northern Ireland, and vice-versa, etc., etc., etc...
Or the way atheists butchered 100 million people in several decades. Just goes to show you.... something.
Ib, you will never learn. Atheists may have killed millions of people, but never in the name of atheism.
Clearly false. The persecution, including mass-killing, of openly religious people in both the Soviet Union and Maoist China are matters of record. The Nazis tried to exterminate a religion, and killed many other religious persons who objected in the process.


The murderousness of contemporary atheists vis. the Muslim world is a matter of record, both on this forum and the various pronouncements of famous atheists like Sam Harris of Christopher Hitchens.
Simple Minded

Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
A sense of wonder and curiousity is what typically motivates individuals to become scientists.

Imagination, creativity, skill, and a prepared mind able to recognize the importance of an serendipitous event seem to be the prerequisites for great discoveries.


Just as religion can be co-opted to serve special interests, so can science. However, it is then no longer science, but a appeal-to-presumed-authority belief system: scientism.
True enough. Hypocrites, charlatans, and imposters come in all stripes. I have heard it said that science is merely a disciplined thought process.

Humans have an infinite capacity for self-delusion, and we can label ourselves whatever we wish. getting some one else to agree with our preferred definition is another matter.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:The persecution, including mass-killing, of openly religious people in both the Soviet Union and Maoist China are matters of record. The Nazis tried to exterminate a religion, and killed many other religious persons who objected in the process.
You still do not understand. Nazis and Communists may have killed religious people but not in order to promote atheism. Some religions were militant against Nazism and Communism and that's why their leaders killed religious people. To intimidate their brethren, not to convert them to atheism. And the Nazis didn't kill 6 million Jews to eradicate Judaism. They did it to eradicate Jews whom they considered disloyal to and enemies of the German Fatherland.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Left wing atheists.
Number three on the 20th mass murderer list was a right wing as they come.
You mean the leader of the National Socialist party. (Socialism is left wing, I can list all the left wing positions of Hitler if you want, from Keynesian stimulus to state control of industry to gun control).
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The persecution, including mass-killing, of openly religious people in both the Soviet Union and Maoist China are matters of record. The Nazis tried to exterminate a religion, and killed many other religious persons who objected in the process.
You still do not understand. Nazis and Communists may have killed religious people but not in order to promote atheism.
Clearly you do not understand. They considered these people an obstacle to the spread of their ideology, and so they killed them. In the case of communism atheism is a part of that ideology, so its even more clearly a case of mass-murder to promote, among other things, atheism. Coincidentally the two greatest mass-murderers in history were atheist communists.

To intimidate their brethren, not to convert them to atheism. And the Nazis didn't kill 6 million Jews to eradicate Judaism. They did it to eradicate Jews whom they considered disloyal to and enemies of the German Fatherland.
The Nazis are an odd example so even if we agree they weren't killing to spread atheism you're still stuck with Mao and Stalin, who were clearly killing to spread and promote an ideology that included atheism.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Endovelico wrote:But the reasons religions give us are good only for the more primitive minds.
All this nonsense about everyone else in the whole world throughout history being primitive simpletons except for us has been said before. Usually by people whose own civilization and way of life was running on fumes. But maybe this time it's different.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by noddy »

the only vague criticism id have of religion is that its power to stop humans being humans is debatable but from the agnostic perspective this is of course a given anyway, seeing as its by humans for humans.

i have tried but failed to see much of a difference between the percentages of f*ckt*rds in religious and atheist groups and its always simpler and more accurate for me to reduce it to personality types.

some people just dont seem to come with much ability to introspect or ponder beyond the simple ideology aspects of their upbringing and other folks seem prone to always doing that.

their are massive differences in culture and consequences of that to be found but you cant read it in an atheist/theist split because their are worst case and best case examples of all of them.

one thing i do notice is that when im reading or watching an archeology thing on some long lost culture and they are trying to project a peaceful utopia on those ancients its quite obvious that (a) the archeologists seem to want to find that and (b) those people aint here anymore.
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Endovelico
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Endovelico »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:But the reasons religions give us are good only for the more primitive minds.
All this nonsense about everyone else in the whole world throughout history being primitive simpletons except for us has been said before. Usually by people whose own civilization and way of life was running on fumes. But maybe this time it's different.
Pity you thought that phrase from my post was the only one worth your comment...
Simple Minded

Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

Post by Simple Minded »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
All this nonsense about everyone else in the whole world throughout history being primitive simpletons except for us has been said before. Usually by people whose own civilization and way of life was running on fumes. But maybe this time it's different.
well said.
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