Ukraine

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Maybe Russia has finally decided to supply the rebels with the weapons they need.

Yes, they have


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[Alexis]

Geopolitics has no place for emotions

Interesting propaganda video to Russians advocating military intervention in Ukraine and calling Putin "treator" because he won't order such an intervention.

Makes good points about the framework and the stakes of the Ukraine civil war. And the interests of the USA in this civil war.

kLph8dKQBdY

(don't forget to tune the subtitles, you have four choices of language including English)

[kmich]

Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine near Russia border

[Parodite]

RIP to the people that died and condolences to the families and friends.

So far the passengers list of airplane MH17 that left from Schiphol Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur Malaysia and crashed in the east of the Ukraine:

154 Dutch, at least 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians, 6 Americans, 4 Germans, 4 Belgians, 3 Philippines and 1 Canadian, and 47 people of yet unknown origin.

Some evidence seems to be mounting that indeed it was shot down, for instance with a buk anti-aircraft missile system. All parties in the Ukraine as well as Russia could have done it.

Bad news, not sure if officially confirmed, is that Russian separatists that control the area where the plane crashed, collected the black boxes and sent them to Moscow "for investigation"

This does not bode well for Hijo de Putin! This type of lavender and more of it. The Ukraine on its way of becoming another Yugoslavia, if not also Russia itself.

[monster_gardener]

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Maybe Russia has finally decided to supply the rebels with the weapons they need.

Yes, they have


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Thank You Very Much for your posts, Azari & Endovelico.

It's still early and in the fog of battle, first reports can be wrong but.....

Yes, they have

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2512&start=375#p76251

Looks like you have confirmation.....

That Russia has finally decided to supply the rebels with the weapons they need.

Reports are in the last 2 weeks the DownBlast oops I mean DonbA$$ pro-Russian Uks were bragging about downing 2 Kiev Uk airplanes recently and one DumbA$$ DownBlast DonbA$$er bragged in a subsequently deleted tweet that they had bagged another Kiev Uk plane until they found out they had made a big mistake and bagged a passenger liner....

With another deleted tweet bragging about having a Buk missile launcher.....

Sounds like another mistake to me ......

This is really bad PR for Russia & the Talented Mr. Putin.....

And the DumbA$$ DownBlast DonbA$$ers.....


But this has happened before.......

KAL007 downed by the Russians.....

That Iranian plane downed by US.....

Looks like the Russians/DonbAssers now ahead in the game of shame.....


And this is likely to happen again.....

Especially after September 11, 2001 where passenger liners were used as cruise missiles by Islamic Terrorists..

If we lazy Uz hadn't been half asleep in complacency on September 11 with no armed planes ready, we would have had to shoot down the hijacked planes ourselves ......*


Perhaps the most important thing I take away from this on a personal level is....

DO NOT FLY Malaysian Airlines...

If you want to remain alive.......

First that disappeared plane...........

And now this.........

What the Devil was that DumbA$$ airplane doing flying in/near a war zone.....

Reports are that for months the FAA has been forbidding US aircraft to fly there.........


*Except for the United flight where heroic passengers took on the hijackers........

At the cost of their lives :

[Demon of Undoing]

http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia ... ute-2014-7

MH17 flight feared to have been shot down over Ukraine was taking a significantly different route to the usual course for flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, according to aviation expert.

The crashed MH17 flight took a route 300 miles to the north of its usual path, an aviation expert has said.

Robert Mark, a commercial pilot who edits Aviation International News Safety magazine, said that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur normally travelled along a route significantly further south than the plane which crashed.

Malaysia Airlines has insisted its plane travelled on an "approved route" used by many other carriers.

But Mr Mark said: "I can only tell you as a commercial pilot myself that if we had been routed that way, with what's been going on in the Ukraine and the Russian border over the last few weeks and months, I would never have accepted that route.

"I went into the FlightAware system, which we all use these days to see where airplanes started and where they tracked, and I looked back at the last two weeks' worth of MH17 flights, which was this one.

"And the flight today tracked very, very much further north into the Ukraine than the other previous flights did ... there were MH17 versions that were 300 miles south of where this one was."

Records of recent MH17 flights on the FlightAware appear to bear out Mr Mark's claim, with earlier flights significantly further south than the flight that crashed.

Mr Mark’s intervention came amid mounting questions over why passenger jets were flying over the war zone three months after pilots were warned to avoid it.

Aviation safety authorities in America and Europe warned pilots in April about potential risks flying in or near Ukraine airspace.

However experts claimed that operators continued to fly across the zone because it was the quickest and cheapest route for some flights.

Norman Shanks, a former head of group security at the BAA airports group, said: "Malaysia Airlines, like a number of other carriers, has been continuing to use it because it is a shorter route, which means less fuel and therefore less money."

Attacks on aircraft in the area have been rife. In the past week alone two Ukrainian military aircraft were shot down and a third was damaged by a missile.

Eurocontrol, which coordinates European air traffic control, said Ukrainian authorities had now closed all routes in the east of the country.

A spokesman for Malaysia Airlines said: "This route is an approved route. 15 out of 16 airlines use this route. It's a safe route - most other countries use this route.

"So we were not given any notice to change this."

[Doc]

Threat of world war starting in Ukraine

It seems 100 of the top AIDS researchers in the world have been killed in the Malaysian airline crash. Perhaps a suitable punishment would be to give the side that did this AIDS and then deny them treatment.

Putin is giving every indication that he is going to push through with this Charade of a civil war in Ukraine. Right now the Russian people are being told that the Ukrainian government did this. One thing leads to another...

[kmich]

Threat of world war starting in Ukraine

It seems 100 of the top AIDS researchers in the world have been killed in the Malaysian airline crash. Perhaps a suitable punishment would be to give the side that did this AIDS and then deny them treatment.

Putin is giving every indication that he is going to push through with this Charade of a civil war in Ukraine. Right now the Russian people are being told that the Ukrainian government did this. One thing leads to another...

The bastards killed Joep Lange, a top notch researcher and a truly decent and good man. I hope Putin and the separatists morons he trained rot in hell.

[Doc]

Threat of world war starting in Ukraine

It seems 100 of the top AIDS researchers in the world have been killed in the Malaysian airline crash. Perhaps a suitable punishment would be to give the side that did this AIDS and then deny them treatment.

Putin is giving every indication that he is going to push through with this Charade of a civil war in Ukraine. Right now the Russian people are being told that the Ukrainian government did this. One thing leads to another...

The bastards killed Joep Lange, a top notch researcher and a truly decent and good man. I hope Putin and the separatists morons he trained rot in hell.

Yeah I forgot to post the story earlier

http://instinctmagazine.com/post/108-to ... ines-crash

108 Top AIDS Experts Killed In Malaysian Airlines Crash
Nigel Campbell | July 18, 2014

​The Malaysian Airlines flight, MH17, that was shot down over Ukraine on Thursday was carrying 108 of the world's leading AIDS experts and researchers.

The Telegraph reports:

The attacked Malaysia Airlines flight was carrying more than 100 of the world's leading AIDS experts who were flying to an international conference in Melbourne, including the HIV researcher and "true humanitarian" Joep Lange.

The victims, which have left the international HIV research community in mourning, included staff from the World Health Organization and medical researchers, health workers and activists who were due to attend the twentieth International AIDS Conference. Glenn Thomas, a Geneva-based WHO media adviser, is also believed to have been aboard.

Dr Lange, a Dutchman, who was on board with his wife Jacqueline van Tongeren, was a former president of the International AIDS Society and has been researching HIV for 30 years. He has authored more than 350 papers and helped lead the fight for the availability of affordable treatments across Asia and Africa.
What a tragedy. To think that a potential cure for HIV/AIDS may have gone down with that plane in an act of senseless violence.

So hundreds of deaths create how many millions more? How many people in Africa for example have AIDS right now, that will die for a lack of a cure, that these researchers might have come up with?

[Parodite]

I wonder how long it will take before the bodies are retrieved and the crime scene internationally secured. In this tempo.. 4 months??

This mousy EU diplomacy is becoming tiring. Just move in with whatever security the Ukrainian gvt is able to offer, add NATO air support, have a good number of ground troops and tanks ready to go into action if needed and tell everybody to get the f*ck out of the way. Hijo de Putin and his brainstem separated friends in the Ukraine can ride to Hell and get all the AIDS they deserve.

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/statu ... 76/photo/1

[Parodite]

More madness, paranoia, propaganda... from the brainstem-separated frontlines:

Now rebel commander blamed for downing MH17 says 'bodies aren't fresh' claiming corpses at crash site have been 'dead for days'

Igor Girkin claimed corpses around the wreckage died before plane took off
Pro-Russian rebel said they were drained of blood and decomposing
He was said to be one of the laughing rebels who filmed the attack
Tweeted after the attack: ‘We warned you – do not fly in “our sky”.’

The rebel commander blamed for shooting down flight MH17 has made bizarre claims that bodies at the crash site 'aren't fresh'.

Pro-Russian separatist Igor Girkin has claimed corpses near the debris died days before the plane took off.

According to rebel website Russkaya Vesna, the leader was told by people at the scene in eastern Ukraine that 'a significant number of the bodies were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.'

[...]

The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17: The Russian Side Of The Story

Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.

So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.

[...]

[Typhoon]

More madness, paranoia, propaganda... from the brainstem-separated frontlines:

Now rebel commander blamed for downing MH17 says 'bodies aren't fresh' claiming corpses at crash site have been 'dead for days'

Igor Girkin claimed corpses around the wreckage died before plane took off
Pro-Russian rebel said they were drained of blood and decomposing
He was said to be one of the laughing rebels who filmed the attack
Tweeted after the attack: ‘We warned you – do not fly in “our sky”.’

The rebel commander blamed for shooting down flight MH17 has made bizarre claims that bodies at the crash site 'aren't fresh'.

Pro-Russian separatist Igor Girkin has claimed corpses near the debris died days before the plane took off.

According to rebel website Russkaya Vesna, the leader was told by people at the scene in eastern Ukraine that 'a significant number of the bodies were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.'

[...]

Typical.

The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17: The Russian Side Of The Story

Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.

So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.

[...]

ZH has found it's target audience and plays them like a fiddle.

[Doc]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... picks=true

Russian Media Goes Far Out to Explain Malaysia Airlines Disaster
By Carol Matlack July 18, 2014
A piece of wreckage from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 is pictured on July 18 in Shaktarsk, the day after it crashed

Photograph by Dominique Faget/AFP via Getty Images

A piece of wreckage from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 is pictured on July 18 in Shaktarsk, the day after it crashed

Russians awoke on Friday to news reports that bumbling Ukrainian troops had shot down a Malaysia Airlines (MAS:MK) jet after mistaking it for President Vladimir Putin’s official plane. Another theory: The Ukrainians intentionally shot down the jet at close range as a “planned provocation.” Or maybe there wasn’t a crash at all, and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysia Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.

Most of these weird news reports aren’t coming from tabloids or fringe websites. They’re coming from Russia’s leading news outlets, which are almost entirely under state control. The report on the mistaken identification of Putin’s plane, for example, aired on Channel One, the country’s most popular TV network. The journalists never explained why the Ukrainians might have thought Putin was in the neighborhood, since he was attending a well-publicized summit in Brazil on the day of the crash.

State-owned news agency ITAR-TASS, meanwhile, put out a report disputing suggestions that separatist rebels may have hit the plane with a Buk surface-to-air missile. It quoted a spokesman for the rebels as saying they had no weapons capable of shooting down an airliner at 33,000 feet—overlooking that ITAR-TASS itself had previously reported that the rebels had seized Buk missiles from a Ukrainian military installation.
Story: The Malaysia Air Crash: The Finger-Pointing Doesn't Stop

Someone at state-run All-Russia State Television & Radio Broadcasting even appears to have edited a Russian-language Wikipedia article on plane crashes today, to say that the plane “was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers.”

And Sara Firth, a London-based correspondent for Russia’s international TV network RT, said today that she was quitting because RT was spreading “shockingly obvious misinformation.” She’s the second RT journalist to leave this year while accusing the Kremlin of shaping the network’s news coverage.


To outsiders, Russian media coverage of the Ukraine crisis may seem far-fetched, conspiracy-laden, and contradictory. But it’s effectively convinced Russians that the Ukrainian rebels need their help to fight brutal repression by Kiev. “Aggressive and deceptive propaganda, worse than anything I witnessed in the Soviet Union,” is how Lev Gudkov, director of the Levada polling group, described it to the BBC last month. Indeed, Levada surveys show that most Russians think their country should be doing more to support the rebels, including direct military intervention in Ukraine.

Until now, this has helped Putin withstand a storm of international criticism and sanctions that risk harming Russia’s ailing economy. Yet the inflamed public opinion could also make it harder for Russia to back away from the rebels if investigators find that they shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 people on board. Putin may find that his support for the rebellion has unleashed an “uncontrollable force,” says Angela Stent, director of the Center for Eurasian, Russian and East European Studies at Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Service.

“As pro-Putin media and social network trolls invent increasingly fantastical versions” of the crash, writes Bloomberg View columnist Leonid Bershidsky, “Russia risks becoming a pariah even to developing countries that have sympathized with its anti-American stance.”

A major source of questionable information about the crisis has come from state-controlled Channel One. The network recently drew condemnation for a report claiming Ukrainian troops had crucified a small boy by nailing him to a billboard in the city of Slavyansk. No other news organization could find witnesses to the incident, which Channel One said took place before a crowd in the city’s central square. Among other dubious elements in the report was a glaring issue: There’s no billboard in Slavyansk’s central square.


In its Friday report on the Ukrainians’ allegedly mistaking the Malaysia Air jet for Putin’s plane, Channel One said the Boeing (BA) 777 could be confused with the Ilyushin (UNAC:RM) II-96 used by the Russian president if seen from a distance. It would be hard to mistake them close-up, however, since the Ilyushin has four engines and the Boeing has two. Not to mention the Russian presidential insignia and other differentiating marks that would be easily visible at close range. Yet in a separate report, Channel One suggested that a Ukrainian fighter jet might have shot down the plane and even offered quotes from villagers near the crash site saying another plane had been flying alongside the Boeing before the explosion.

Out in Russian cyberspace, the theories get even weirder. One of the most fanciful contends that no crash occurred and that the scene was staged with corpses from the earlier Malaysia Air flight, which were sprinkled with fake passports and other items to throw investigators off the trail.

The media have “juggled different versions: Ukrainian fighter, Ukrainian rocket attack on Putin, and so on,” columnist Oleg Kashin writes on the Russian-language Free Press website. “The more versions there are, the less clear it is, and the more time there is to work out the final version that will become canonical.”

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Only a few surface to air (SAM) missiles systems (Buk-M1 and others) can hit a plane @ 33,000 feet .. and .. they all carry serial numbers

Checking the missing serial numbers should give a quick clue who did it

Ukraine is an "absolute corrupt" country, practically a few MAFIA factions ruling

Seems to me, things could spill over

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[Doc]

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Only a few surface to air (SAM) missiles systems (Buk-M1 and others) can hit a plane @ 33,000 feet .. and .. they all carry serial numbers

Checking the missing serial numbers should give a quick clue who did it

Ukraine is an "absolute corrupt" country, practically a few MAFIA factions ruling

Seems to me, things could spill over

.

A major source of questionable information about the crisis has come from state-controlled Channel One. The network recently drew condemnation for a report claiming Ukrainian troops had crucified a small boy by nailing him to a billboard in the city of Slavyansk. No other news organization could find witnesses to the incident, which Channel One said took place before a crowd in the city’s central square. Among other dubious elements in the report was a glaring issue: There’s no billboard in Slavyansk’s central square.

[kmich]

.
Only a few surface to air (SAM) missiles systems (Buk-M1 and others) can hit a plane @ 33,000 feet .. and .. they all carry serial numbers

Checking the missing serial numbers should give a quick clue who did it

Ukraine is an "absolute corrupt" country, practically a few MAFIA factions ruling

Seems to me, things could spill over

.

We shall see – maybe. Apparently every effort is being made to mess with the evidence by the assorted separatist bozos on the ground including removing equipment and dragging bodies off to wherever and restricting access to the site.

The Russian-Ukrainian separatists do not have access to air-power so Ukraine has had no reason to monitor the sky for threats or to act on them. The separatists and their Russian backers have had plenty of reasons and have a track record. Four Ukrainian military planes have been shot down since June. Two of those incidents appear to have almost certainly have been caused by rebels, apparently demonstrating that they have the ability and willingness to shoot down a plane. But the other two were shot down at a high altitude, like the MH17 flight was, and while confirmation of responsibility has been elusive, such high altitude intercepts would have not been possible without either being conducted by the Russians or by rebels who had been trained by them.

Putin has his butt firmly stuck in a wringer on this one. Pissed off at the putsch on the Yanukovych kleptocracy , he has gleefully and thoughtlessly played and fed the snakes in the eastern part of the country. Putin is an old apparatchik who is used to having control, but he has little control over the snake pit he has nurtured over the past several months. He has shown himself as a complete incompetent in probably the greatest PR mess he has ever got his narcissistic butt in. I hope someone hangs his sorry ass.

I have a hard time being objective about this. I knew several people on that flight from my work in Africa. It is hard not to hate.

[Endovelico]

Maybe time has come for the Russian army to take over control of eastern Ukraine, in order to stop the fighting and give a chance for real negotiations between the rebels and Kiev. Shelling of civilian areas and shooting down commercial planes should no longer be acceptable.

[Doc]

Maybe time has come for the Russian army to take over control of eastern Ukraine, in order to stop the fighting and give a chance for real negotiations between the rebels and Kiev. Shelling of civilian areas and shooting down commercial planes should no longer be acceptable.

Yeah negotiations worked very well for Hitler...

[monster_gardener]

Maybe time has come for the Russian army to take over control of eastern Ukraine, in order to stop the fighting and give a chance for real negotiations between the rebels and Kiev. Shelling of civilian areas and shooting down commercial planes should no longer be acceptable.

Maybe time has come for the Russian army to take over control of eastern Ukraine, in order to stop the fighting and give a chance for real negotiations between the rebels and Kiev.

Thank You Very Much for Your Post, Endovelico.

Maybe time has come for the Russian army to take over control of eastern Ukraine, in order to stop the fighting and give a chance for real negotiations between the rebels and Kiev.

Presuming that as seems likely, the Pro-Russian DonbA$$ Rebels were the DumbA$$es who shot the airliner down, that would be rewarding the guilty by giving them just what they want which is union with Russia.....

[Heracleum Persicum]

.
Only a few surface to air (SAM) missiles systems (Buk-M1 and others) can hit a plane @ 33,000 feet .. and .. they all carry serial numbers

Checking the missing serial numbers should give a quick clue who did it

Ukraine is an "absolute corrupt" country, practically a few MAFIA factions ruling

Seems to me, things could spill over

.

We shall see – maybe. Apparently every effort is being made to mess with the evidence by the assorted separatist bozos on the ground including removing equipment and dragging bodies off to wherever and restricting access to the site.

The Russian-Ukrainian separatists do not have access to air-power so Ukraine has had no reason to monitor the sky for threats or to act on them. The separatists and their Russian backers have had plenty of reasons and have a track record. Four Ukrainian military planes have been shot down since June. Two of those incidents appear to have almost certainly have been caused by rebels, apparently demonstrating that they have the ability and willingness to shoot down a plane. But the other two were shot down at a high altitude, like the MH17 flight was, and while confirmation of responsibility has been elusive, such high altitude intercepts would have not been possible without either being conducted by the Russians or by rebels who had been trained by them.

Putin has his butt firmly stuck in a wringer on this one. Pissed off at the putsch on the Yanukovych kleptocracy , he has gleefully and thoughtlessly played and fed the snakes in the eastern part of the country. Putin is an old apparatchik who is used to having control, but he has little control over the snake pit he has nurtured over the past several months. He has shown himself as a complete incompetent in probably the greatest PR mess he has ever got his narcissistic butt in. I hope someone hangs his sorry ass.

I have a hard time being objective about this. I knew several people on that flight from my work in Africa. It is hard not to hate.

(corrupt) Ukrainian military (elements), some yrs ago, shot down a passenger airliner (over Ukraine) ferrying Russian/Ukrainian Jews to Israel (probably Arab Sheiks paid) .. exactly same circumstances & scenario .. meaning this not first time (criminal elements in) Ukrainian military would have done it

I do not see any reason Russia should do this .. no benefit, in fact a lot of negative for Russia, as European and American sanction would escalate .. and .. Russia has already "repatriated" Crimea and is more interested to calm the situation .. Ukraine on the other hand, dreaming to take back Crimea and has all reason to escalate, CIA encouraging them to .. European know the truth but use the occasion to stick it to Putin

We will see, but I doubt truth will come out, but, I lean towards Russian innocence .. Ukraine is highjacked by crooks backed by CIA

.

[Parodite]

Maybe time has come for the Russian army to take over control of eastern Ukraine, in order to stop the fighting and give a chance for real negotiations between the rebels and Kiev. Shelling of civilian areas and shooting down commercial planes should no longer be acceptable.

Maybe time also has come for the Germans and Dutch to manage the economy of countries in the South like Portugal for a while.. since they don't appear to understand the basics.

[Parodite]

Not sure how much of this is mere speculation... but on the other hand.. when diplomacy fails.. time is running out very fast our PM hinted in a heated phone call he had with Putin were he expressed his and the national outrage.

The Netherlands and the US prepare invasion

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1405810715

[monster_gardener]

Thank You VERY MUCH for Maintaining the Forum, Admins Typhoon & YMix..

For What It Is Worth
Back at Spenglerverse

I think most know the link but ask if you want me to post.....

RoRi is claiming that it was an air to air missile that took down the airliner.
Saying the evidence is metal rod damage versus the high explosive explosion that a surface to air Buk missile would do...Posting photos etc....

IMHO people are correct to be suspicious of Russia after their deceptive behavior when they shot down KAL007 compared to the US owning up to shooting down that Iranian plane and paying compensation...

But who knows....
Times Change....
We are dealing with desperate people on both sides of the Ukraine...


This is above my pay grade...
Maybe even above Darth obama the LYING Son of a Bitch Eater's paygrade

[Typhoon]

Maybe time has come for the Russian army to take over control of eastern Ukraine, in order to stop the fighting and give a chance for real negotiations between the rebels and Kiev. Shelling of civilian areas and shooting down commercial planes should no longer be acceptable.

Maybe time also has come for the Germans and Dutch to manage the economy of countries in the South like Portugal for a while.. since they don't appear to understand the basics.

Russia already has the largest territory on the planet and does a brilliant job of complete mismanagement.

No need to add E Ukraine to that list.

[Typhoon]

Thank You VERY MUCH for Maintaining the Forum, Admins Typhoon & YMix..

For What It Is Worth
Back at Spenglerverse

I think most know the link but ask if you want me to post.....

RoRi is claiming that it was an air to air missile that took down the airliner.
Saying the evidence is metal rod damage versus the high explosive explosion that a surface to air Buk missile would do...Posting photos etc....

The edge of the internet is nothing if not a haven for clueless conspiracy types.