The conflict in Ferguson, MO

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

And bringing this back around, there is a great disconnection along racial lines where white and black are segmented by a greater than zero sum of people over this ephemeral idea of responsibility.

If there wasn't, Zack Morris wouldn't have written what he did above about white responsibility.

[Simple Minded]

What is wrong with me?

Now I admit to having a long rebellious streak and am highly argumentative but in my experience, the first person who brings up personal responsibility is usually the least responsible and is merely trying to pawn it off on someone else.

There is nothing personal about your sense of responsibility. It was beaten into you and you've internalized, contemplated and elaborated on the concept as you've gotten older and assumed actual responsibilities.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that. As you've argued before, you'd wouldn't be anywhere close to the person you are without your sense of responsibility. But it is contingent upon so many other things going right: a working social contract, a hierarchy (usually of parent/adults over children), and that your parents were willing to accept you having your own personal agency at one point or another. There is also a great sense of social conformity required and a strong self and superego (among other things) that make the whole edifice work.

Meanwhile, from what I've experienced, when one or more of these things are missing or have broken down, there is great confusion over what responsibility actual means or entails. And I sympathize in some cases, where the lines of responsibility are not clearly delineated and there is great pressure on people to blindly accept responsibility for things out of their control or not actually their responsibility to accept.

And when we get to political issues, we very much enter an area where there is there is very little consensus.

But what really gets my goat is how the words are merely placeholders at this point. They've been so abused as to be meaningless. Sort of like telling someone you are spiritual. You're either communicating a whole asserted worldview that must be accepted point blank or you are speaking gibberish. [the plural you is being used here] There is no way to discuss these things with others because almost everyone considers themselves personally responsible and everyone else is the genuflect up....so it's like running into walls over and over again. And again. And again.

You did great right up until the last paragraph. Then you went binary. Unfortunately, in politics voting yes or no, seems to mean binary is the MO.

Infinite number of variables, infinite number of perceptions and cultures, stages of life. Ten days from now or ten miles from here Fred won't be the same person he is here and now. Why would anyone expect consensus from someone who lives 50 miles away or who is ten years older or younger than them? People and life are always in flux.

Some day, when the Borg arrive..... Or maybe the alien spores......

[Simple Minded]

The difference couldn't be culture, or nurture. Perhaps genetic or chemical? The pre-Ritalin era.

There is compelling evidence that lead could have been the culprit.

good article. I have long thought this was also a factor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_ ... ime_effect

[Simple Minded]

Zack & Nap,

Good posts. Thanks to both of you.

Regarding the use of the word responsibility, I agree. People often use a virtuous term as camouflage for intentions and actions that are contrary to what they profess. The terms social justice, equality, fair share, religious… all come to mind. The desire to save others is often a false front for the desire to control others. Professing is often an early stage of rationalization.

As always, the process of filtering influences what is viewed. Blacks/whites, males/females, rich/poor, young/old, carpenters/plumbers, union members/scabs, rualites/urbanites, lefties/righties, tall people/short people , etc. all view the world differently. Especially when the observers start using the previous labels to differentiate individuals into group identities.

Which mental coral do I have to herd Fred into today?

Regarding personal responsibility, I mean to use it in the concept of what an individual person accepts as their personal code. I certainly did not invent it. And since I know I was raised on a different planet, I sure as hell don't expect others to agree with my definition.

I don’t believe in the concept of black responsibility or white responsibility anymore than I believe in the concept of the black community or the white community. Differences are usually cultural. The above terms are only a few methods of defining culture. Again, the observer always defines and filters.

As Nap points out, and as we have proven at OTNOT numerous times, reaching consensus on even such simple terms as right, left, justice, or fairness, seem to be beyond the ability of a group of people. The larger the group, the grater (Freudian typo) the difficulty of achieving consensus. Forget even more complex terms such as personal responsibility or social justice.

Society is one of my favorite disagreeable terms. 10 square miles, 10,000 people, a state, east of the Mississippi, north of the Mason-Dixon line, VA, CA, the US? Which one?

Running into the same wall over and over and over again? Yep. That’s what humans do. Might as well enjoy the ride!

I’m done trying to save the world. That is a young man’s game. I now choose to function on a face to face level. Simply as a result of observing that thinking in terms of community never seems to work….. because few can agree for long on a definition of community either? Could be.

Everyone wants to save the world. No one wants to take out the trash. No problem, I’ll get the trash.

Perhaps as one’s level of discontent diminishes, one finds the world does need saving as much as one previously thought. Teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s…… hmmm either as one gets older one better understands the world, or one’s hormone levels change.

The other fascinating aspect of the human desire for consensus is when one says “I don’t see that as a big of a problem as you do.” Or “that may be a big problem in your neighborhood, but people in this town don’t think like that.” The insults directed at the speaker start. Thankfully much more on the political level than anywhere else.

“I’m in favor of social justice! What you don’t agree with my definition of society or justice? You’re a _____!”

One's psychological need for consensus and approval often forces one to mentally assign the label of "other" to those who disagree with one! Isn't that a interesting aspect of humanity!

The mental lines of demarcation between ideology and reality…... Whew baby! It don’t get no more personal than that! Thankfully.

[monster_gardener]

The difference couldn't be culture, or nurture. Perhaps genetic or chemical? The pre-Ritalin era.

There is compelling evidence that lead could have been the culprit.

good article. I have long thought this was also a factor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_ ... ime_effect

Thank YOU VERY Much for your post, Simple Minded.

I have been raised to oppose abortion on religious grounds.....

It is pretty gruesome.....

But I must confess that sometimes when watching crime stories on TV, sometimes my thought is: "What a shame that your mother did not have a miscarriage with you"......

Here is one perp who that is certainly true of....

Israel Keyes (January 7, 1978 – December 2, 2012) was an American serial killer, rapist, arsonist, burglar and bank robber. Keyes admitted to violent crimes as early as 1996, with the violent sexual assault of a teenage girl in Oregon.[2] He committed a long series of rapes and murders until his capture in 2012. He was being held in custody, awaiting trial for the murder of Samantha Koenig, when he committed suicide in prison.

Israel Keyes.JPG (44.79 KiB) Viewed 1520 times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Keyes

If anyone recognizes him from a past encounter, please contact law enforcement. Still trying to track down all of his crimes & victims.

[Marcus]

. . I now choose to function on a face to face level. Simply as a result of observing that thinking in terms of community never seems to work….. because few can agree for long on a definition of community either? Could be. . .

The other fascinating aspect of the human desire for consensus is when one says “I don’t see that as a big of a problem as you do.” Or “that may be a big problem in your neighborhood, but people in this town don’t think like that.” The insults directed at the speaker start. Thankfully much more on the political level than anywhere else.

“I’m in favor of social justice! What you don’t agree with my definition of society or justice? You’re a _____!”

One's psychological need for consensus and approval often forces one to mentally assign the label of "other" to those who disagree with one! Isn't that a interesting aspect of humanity!

The mental lines of demarcation between ideology and reality…... Whew baby! It don’t get no more personal than that! Thankfully.

As I see it, SM, we are community whether we like it or acknowledge it or not . . we are who we are in terms of time, place, and more. Simply put, we are human in terms of relation. Community is a fact of life.

On the personal level, C. S. Lewis observed that we can be friends with other people to the degree that we agree on what constitutes truth. Works for me. The problem, as I see it, is that too many people can't distinguish between their person and their ideas, and any challenge of their ideas becomes a personal challenge which elicits a personal response—usually nasty.

But we are not our ideas . . ideas can and do change while our person remains the same . . witness Paul before and after his experience on the road to Damascus . . same Paul . . different ideas. Ideas are fair game, people are not.

[monster_gardener]

. . I now choose to function on a face to face level. Simply as a result of observing that thinking in terms of community never seems to work….. because few can agree for long on a definition of community either? Could be. . .

The other fascinating aspect of the human desire for consensus is when one says “I don’t see that as a big of a problem as you do.” Or “that may be a big problem in your neighborhood, but people in this town don’t think like that.” The insults directed at the speaker start. Thankfully much more on the political level than anywhere else.

“I’m in favor of social justice! What you don’t agree with my definition of society or justice? You’re a _____!”

One's psychological need for consensus and approval often forces one to mentally assign the label of "other" to those who disagree with one! Isn't that a interesting aspect of humanity!

The mental lines of demarcation between ideology and reality…... Whew baby! It don’t get no more personal than that! Thankfully.

As I see it, SM, we are community whether we like it or acknowledge it or not . . we are who we are in terms of time, place, and more. Simply put, we are human in terms of relation. Community is a fact of life.

On the personal level, C. S. Lewis observed that we can be friends with other people to the degree that we agree on what constitutes truth. Works for me. The problem, as I see it, is that too many people can't distinguish between their person and their ideas, and any challenge of their ideas becomes a personal challenge which elicits a personal response—usually nasty.

But we are not our ideas . . ideas can and do change while our person remains the same . . witness Paul before and after his experience on the road to Damascus . . same Paul . . different ideas. Ideas are fair game, people are not.

Thank You VERY MUCH for Your post, Marcus,

Paul before and after his experience on the road to Damascus . . same Paul . . different ideas.

Perhaps.....

But look at Peter and at least some of the other apostles before Jesus & especially the Holy Spirit and afterwards.....

AIUI conversion is supposed to change a person.....

Granted that the struggle with the old nature is there.....

One does things that go against the old nature....

And as C.S. Lewis mentioned in one example.... One's face grows into the mask one wears.....

Ideas are fair game,

Sure....

people are not.

IMVHO not so.....

Especially when opposing people who think certain people are fair game....

Like Israel Keyes.....

Militant Muslims.....

And many others.......

[Marcus]

. . AIUI conversion is supposed to change a person.....

As St. Paul put it, MG, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

No argument from me . . at some level it becomes semantics.

[Simple Minded]

As I see it, SM, we are community whether we like it or acknowledge it or not . . we are who we are in terms of time, place, and more. Simply put, we are human in terms of relation. Community is a fact of life.

Marcus,

True enough, I just don't expect others to agree with my sense of or definition of community. I'm sure there are many times I don't meet their standards of what a representative member of the _____ community should be. Simply because I am not _________ enough to fit their mental definition.

At any given time, Fred may define himself by any number of things, family, race, religion, occupation, age, sex, nationality, political party, ancestry, etc.

When the observer tries to guess what mode Fred is in, is when it gets interesting.

[Simple Minded]

As St. Paul put it, MG, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Marcus,

One of the greatest quotes of all time!

thanks!

[Simple Minded]

Thank YOU VERY Much for your post, Simple Minded.

I have been raised to oppose abortion on religious grounds.....

It is pretty gruesome.....

Thanks for your post MG! On moral grounds I agree with you.

But forcing one to bear and raise children they do not want, and then observing the result.......... could be tough to pick the lesser of the two evils in some cases.

A good thing for a woman and her God to work out in each case.

[Marcus]

Marcus,

True enough, I just don't expect others to agree with my sense of or definition of community. I'm sure there are many times I don't meet their standards of what a representative member of the _____ community should be. Simply because I am not _________ enough to fit their mental definition.

At any given time, Fred may define himself by any number of things, family, race, religion, occupation, age, sex, nationality, political party, ancestry, etc.

When the observer tries to guess what mode Fred is in, is when it gets interesting.

Assuredly so, SM . . and, as you say, a most frustrating guessing game.

I am contending that we are human-in-community at a level that transcends or is deeper than (take your pick) all definitions based on race, religion, occupation, age, sex, nationality, etc., etc., etc.

As Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God perichoretically, so too are we humans only human perichoretically, never individualistically.

We are communal creatures whether we like it or not, whether we acknowledge it or not, whether we know it or not. John Donne understood:

"No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee."

[Parodite]

As I see it, SM, we are community whether we like it or acknowledge it or not . . we are who we are in terms of time, place, and more. Simply put, we are human in terms of relation. Community is a fact of life.

Marcus,

True enough, I just don't expect others to agree with my sense of or definition of community. I'm sure there are many times I don't meet their standards of what a representative member of the _____ community should be. Simply because I am not _________ enough to fit their mental definition.

At any given time, Fred may define himself by any number of things, family, race, religion, occupation, age, sex, nationality, political party, ancestry, etc.

When the observer tries to guess what mode Fred is in, is when it gets interesting.

Not everything is just psychology, dr Phil

I understand that the USA is way too big for you. Come to the Netherlands! Not perfect, and still pretty big... but it may be a good start. And your ideal sized territory is not too far from here: San Marino.

[Simple Minded]

Not everything is just psychology, dr Phil

I understand that the USA is way too big for you. Come to the Netherlands! Not perfect, and still pretty big... but it may be a good start. And your ideal sized territory is not too far from here: San Marino.

While I appreciated the invite Bro, I'm not sure I'm smart enough nor nasty enough to become a Netherlandian!

Six months after climbing over the dike, Endo would be expecting me to subjugate the rest of the continent by putting my wooden shoe on their throats.

Besides last time I was in Amsterdam all those chicks who were trying to pay me to have sex with them was very distracting. No telling how many of them would have demanded their money back. I'm probably a better engineer than a gigalo.

External culture, imagination, what's the diff?

Is it true that wooden shoes allow one to walk on water?

In the spirit of reciprocity to promote International Brotherhood, you are also invited to settle in Appalachia. After you get here, we can take out a few teeff so you will fit in better.

[Marcus]

. . . In the spirit of reciprocity to promote International Brotherhood, you are also invited to settle in Appalachia. After you get here, we can take out a few teeff so you will fit in better.

Rolling on the floor . . laughing my a** off . . you asked for that one, Rhap . . .

[Simple Minded]

Marcus,

True enough, I just don't expect others to agree with my sense of or definition of community. I'm sure there are many times I don't meet their standards of what a representative member of the _____ community should be. Simply because I am not _________ enough to fit their mental definition.

At any given time, Fred may define himself by any number of things, family, race, religion, occupation, age, sex, nationality, political party, ancestry, etc.

When the observer tries to guess what mode Fred is in, is when it gets interesting.

Assuredly so, SM . . and, as you say, a most frustrating guessing game.

I am contending that we are human-in-community at a level that transcends or is deeper than (take your pick) all definitions based on race, religion, occupation, age, sex, nationality, etc., etc., etc.

As Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God perichoretically, so too are we humans only human perichoretically, never individualistically.

We are communal creatures whether we like it or not, whether we acknowledge it or not, whether we know it or not. John Donne understood:

"No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee."

True enough, no one is an army of one, but everyone comes into the world and leaves the world alone. Group identity, and especially identity politics is a very temporary situation.

Between birth and death, each is entitled to their imagination and opinion, and few, if any, ever see with the eyes of another...... especially when the consequences are personal.

[Parodite]

. . . In the spirit of reciprocity to promote International Brotherhood, you are also invited to settle in Appalachia. After you get here, we can take out a few teeff so you will fit in better.

Rolling on the floor . . laughing my a** off . . you asked for that one, Rhap . . .

lol you guys haven't met me yet.. I'm born ready for fwis! Twusht me

[Simple Minded]

lol you guys haven't met me yet.. I'm born ready for fwis! Twusht me

No surprises there mate!

No wonder Endovelico don't want you messing with his women folk....

Once they have had a real man....

[Heracleum Persicum]

AmWJtG6Q9wA

[monster_gardener]

. . . In the spirit of reciprocity to promote International Brotherhood, you are also invited to settle in Appalachia. After you get here, we can take out a few teeff so you will fit in better.

Rolling on the floor . . laughing my a** off . . you asked for that one, Rhap . . .

lol you guys haven't met me yet.. I'm born ready for fwis! Twusht me

\\

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Rhapsody Parodite.

For some reason what this post & photo reminds me of is the Great Dutch Painter Vincent Van Gogh and the coal miners he worked with.....

Also coal miners I have worked with......

At stations....

Down in the Black Gang......

In his mid-twenties, the Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh spent several years living there, ca. 1878–1880. First, he preached to and lived with the coal miners. Then, he had a breakdown and decided to become an artist, while living there. His first masterpiece, The Potato Eaters (Oil on Canvas, 1885), of Dutch land peasants, was indirectly inspired by the bad conditions of miners and their families in the Borinage but was not painted there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borinage#B ... al_strikes

[Parodite]

lol you guys haven't met me yet.. I'm born ready for fwis! Twusht me

No surprises there mate!

No surprise there is no surprise Bro!

No wonder Endovelico don't want you messing with his women folk....

Once they have had a real man....

I dunno... he seems to like strong men himself a lot too. The Knights of the East who come to rescue the Portugeeshj Princess locked up down in the Euro-basement of Western Overlords and Uncle Sham.

[Simple Minded]

I dunno... he seems to like strong men himself a lot too. The Knights of the East who come to rescue the Portugeeshj Princess locked up down in the Euro-basement of Western Overlords and Uncle Sham.

Much of humanity seems like battered (not like deep frying) wives...... They attracted to strong men, then complain when they act like men! what can you do?

Competition for resources, ie: high population density is one of my favorite theories for much of humanity's problems.

Have you Northerners ever considered a eugenics program, or carefully controlled interbreeding progrom to rid the continent of the weaker southern races?

Most of the problems in the US only started after industrialization when the Southerners went north to get jobs in factories, or after the invention of air condition when the Northerners went south to escape the rat race....... and the Southerners who went north.

Maybe the AGWers are right, get rid of electricity, industrialization, and air conditioning.... and us and Mama Gaio will be happier....

[monster_gardener]

lol you guys haven't met me yet.. I'm born ready for fwis! Twusht me

No surprises there mate!

No surprise there is no surprise Bro!

No wonder Endovelico don't want you messing with his women folk....

Once they have had a real man....

I dunno... he seems to like strong men himself a lot too. The Knights of the East who come to rescue the Portugeeshj Princess locked up down in the Euro-basement of Western Overlords and Uncle Sham.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Rhapsody Parodite....

Don't Forget the 2 Headed/Double Minded Ukrainian Princess with Multiple Personality Disorder caused by the Evil Eastern Mad Doctor Joe Stalin & Evil Western Mad Doctor Adolph Shickelgruber

The Poor Princess cannot decide if she wants the Eastern Knight who will most likely saw her in half and absorb her into himself or eat her.....

Or the Western Knight who will leave her whole but try to transform her into something like his fun loving degenerate self....

Which may or may not be an improvement over what she is now.....

The Western Knight is nearly sterile and his line seems to be dying and likely soon to be in dire conflict or worse with the Vile Killer Klowns from Islamic Space who the Western Knight foolishly took in as refugees not being wise enough to realize that Killer Klowns from Islamic Space were Even Worse that than those they fled from......

And the Killer Klowns from Islamic Space are especially bad for Princesses

Even More than the Eastern Knight.....Bad as he is.....

Strange as that sounds but true....

And at least the Eastern Knight is trying to do something about his near sterility & the Killer Klowns from Islamic Space... Even when that means Fertility Rites and Smashing Chechen Black Widow Spider Killer Klowns from Islamic Space with a Vengance...


While the Western Knight is in denial about his fertility.. And to a large degree about the Killer Klowns from Islamic Space, feeling that he just really can't do what he needs to do about the Killer Klowns from Islamic Space because that would besmirch his honor as a Liberal Progressive Politically Correct Western Knight....

The Portuguese Princess is interesting too..... Daughter of an Ancient Western Knight who fought instead of coddling the Evil Killer Klowns from Islamic Space , she sees the Eastern Knight largely through Rose Colored Glasses and actually likes the idea of the Ukrainian Princess being sawn in half by the Eastern Knight and absorbed into him because she likes the idea of nations especially Western Knights being broken up into little pieces and sometimes sees the Killer Klowns from Islamic Space through Rose Colored Glasses too...


What's A Princess to Do.... Wear Rose Colored Glasses and/or Be A Magician's Assistant....

Even though the Magician is Talented and a Prince named Vlad


But what do I know.....

Except that the Killer Klowns have tried to kill me once...
And that Klowns say they will try to do that and more again...

I'm just a Redneck Space Cowboy Court Jester Down in the Black Gang of Uz....

Uz, which also has problems with the Vile Killer Klowns from Islamic Space because Uz too has stupidly allowed the Islamic Klowns in.....

And has a leader even more Lazy, Lying, and Foolish than many of the Western Knights of the Euroz..
Who may be a Crypto Killer Klown himself at heard as he was raised a Klown and by his own confession still loves the Caterwauling Klown Call 5 times a day

Part of a Mongrel Clan....

Which at least so far has no Killer Klowns from Islamic Space in It......

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


UN Committee condemns U.S. for racism, police brutality


PBS

“This is not an isolated event and illustrates a bigger problem in the United States, such as racial bias among law enforcement officials, the lack of proper implementation of rules and regulations governing the use of force, and the inadequacy of training of law enforcement officials.” said CERD vice chairman Noureddine Amir. “Racial and ethnic discrimination remains a serious and persistent problem in all areas of life from de facto school segregation, access to health care and housing.”

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-un-urg ... ing-2014-8

http://www.salon.com/chromeo/article/a_ ... oing_well/

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/u ... ica-racism

http://www.china.org.cn/world/Off_the_W ... 381401.htm


Folks .. MAIN PILLAR of "democracy" is "protection of Minority rights"

Monster, Doc, you do not have a democracy, you have a "TYRANNY of Majority"


.

[monster_gardener]

.


UN Committee condemns U.S. for racism, police brutality


PBS

“This is not an isolated event and illustrates a bigger problem in the United States, such as racial bias among law enforcement officials, the lack of proper implementation of rules and regulations governing the use of force, and the inadequacy of training of law enforcement officials.” said CERD vice chairman Noureddine Amir. “Racial and ethnic discrimination remains a serious and persistent problem in all areas of life from de facto school segregation, access to health care and housing.”

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-un-urg ... ing-2014-8

http://www.salon.com/chromeo/article/a_ ... oing_well/

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/u ... ica-racism

http://www.china.org.cn/world/Off_the_W ... 381401.htm


Folks .. MAIN PILLAR of "democracy" is "protection of Minority rights"

Monster, Doc, you do not have a democracy, you have a "TYRANNY of Majority"


.

Thanks for your post, Azari....

Monster, Doc, you do not have a democracy

Quite correct.

What I want to see preserved is a Representative Constitutional Republic with a Good Bill of Rights including especially the Right to Own, Keep, Bear, and if necessary Use Arms to defend oneself.....

Tarnished it may be right now under the Lying Son of a Bitch Eating Incompetent POS GOLFTUS POTUS obama, it still beat the crap Theocracy that has been ruling Iran since the

Folks .. MAIN PILLAR of "democracy" is "protection of Minority rights"

Tempted to say this is so wrong that it is not even false.....

Democracy can be be 2 wolves and a Sheep voting on what's for lunch.

A Good Representative Constitutional Republic as describe above is 2 wolves and a heavy armed sheep negotiating lunch down to cheese sandwiches and sheep milk with the wolves agreeing to fight other wolves who try to bother the sheep....

But since you want to talk minority rights, try this history of Jewish minority right in Persian post infection with the Malignant Malicious Muslim Meme....

The appointment, however, provoked resentment from the Muslim clergy, and after Arghun's death in 1291, al-Daula was murdered and Persian Jews suffered a period of violent clergy-instigated persecutions from the Muslim populace. The contemporary Christian historian Bar Hebraeus wrote that of the violence committed against the Jews during that period "neither tongue can utter, nor the pen write down".[20]

Ghazan Khan's conversion to Islam in 1295 heralded for Persian Jews a pronounced turn for the worse, as they were once again relegated to the status of dhimmis. Öljeitü, Ghazan Khan's successor, pressured some Jews to convert to Islam. The most famous such convert was Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, a physician, historian and statesman, who adopted Islam in order to advance his career at Öljeitü's court. However, in 1318 he was executed on fake charges of poisoning Öljeitü and for several days crowds carried his head around his native city of Tabriz, chanting "This is the head of the Jew who abused the name of God; may God's curse be upon him!" About 100 years later, Miranshah destroyed Rashid al-Din's tomb, and his remains were reburied at the Jewish cemetery. Rashid al-Din's case illustrates a pattern that differentiated the treatment of Jewish converts in Persia from their treatment in most other Muslim lands, where converts were welcomed and easily assimilated into the Muslim population. In Persia, however, Jewish converts were usually stigmatized on account of their Jewish ancestry for many generations.[20][21]
Safavid and Qajar dynasties (1502 to 1925)
Hamedan Jews in 1918.

Further deterioration in the treatment of Persian Jews occurred during the reign of the Safavids who proclaimed Shi'a Islam the state religion. Shi'ism assigns great importance to the issues of ritual purity ― tahara, and non-Muslims, including Jews, are deemed to be ritually unclean ― najis ― so that physical contact with them would require Shi'as to undertake ritual purification before doing regular prayers. Thus, Persian rulers, and to an even larger extent, the populace, sought to limit physical contact between Muslims and Jews. Jews were not allowed to attend public baths with Muslims or even to go outside in rain or snow, ostensibly because some impurity could be washed from them upon a Muslim.[22] Jews were often only permitted to pursue trades that were undesirable to the general Muslim population. They were expected to "undertake dirty work of every kind." Examples of such professions included dyeing (which contained strong unpleasant odors), scavenger work, cleaning excrement pits, singers, musicians, dancers and so on.[23] By 1905, many Jews of Isfahan were trading opium. This commerce which was very profitable, involved trade with India and China. The head of Isfahan Jewry was known to have contacts with house of David Sassoon.[24]

The reign of Shah Abbas I (1588–1629) was initially benign. Jews prospered throughout Persia and were even encouraged to settle in Isfahan, which was made a new capital. However, toward the end of his rule, the treatment of Jews became harsher; upon advice from a Jewish convert and Shi'a clergy, the Shah forced Jews to wear a distinctive badge on clothing and headgear. In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam. However, as it became known that the converts continued to practice Judaism in secret and because the treasury suffered from the loss of jizya collected from the Jews, they were allowed to revert to Judaism in 1661. However, they were still required to wear a distinctive patch upon their clothings.[20]

Under Sunni Muslim Nadir Shah (1736–1747), Jews experienced a period of relative tolerance when they were allowed to settle in the Shi'ite holy city of Mashhad. Nader even employed many Jews in sensitive positions and he brought Jewish administrators as protectors of his treasures from India. Nader also ordered Jewish holy books to be translated into Persian.

Upon the completion of the translation, Nadir Shah presented the sages of Israel with robes of honor and gifts and thereafter he dismissed them. At nights in the royal assembly, the chief Mulla (Rabbi) of the kingdom [Mulla-Bashi] would read and interpret for the king, sometimes from the Torah and sometimes from the Psalms and king enjoyed this greatly. He had sworn saying "I will take Russia, I will rebuiled Jerusalem and I will gather all the Children of Israel together" However death overtook him and did not allow him to do so[25]

The Jews became prominent in trade in Mashhad, and established commercial relationships with the British, who favored dealing with them. After the assassination of Nader in 1747, Jews turned to the British traders and Sunni Turkomens for political support. At the time Jews formed close ties with the British and provided banking support and intelligence for them.[26] The Zand dynasty had a more complex relationship with the Jewish community. They enjoyed the Shah's protection in Shiraz, but when the forces of Karim Khan took Basra in 1773, many Jews were killed, their properties looted and their women were raped. A document named "The Scroll of Persia" by Rabbi Ya'cov Elyashar compares the protected status of Jews in Ottoman Empire, with the weak condition of Jews in Iran. A Dutch traveller to Shiraz at the time of Karim Khan states:"Like most of the cities of the east, the Jews of Shiraz dwell in a separate quarter of their own, and they live, at least outwardly, in great poverty."[27] The British officer William Francklin who visited Shiraz after Karim Khan's death wrote :"The Jews of Shiraz have a quarter of the city allotted to themselves, for which they pay a considerable tax to the government,and are obliged to make frequent presents. These people are more odious to the Pomegranates than any other faith, and every opportunity is taken to oppress and extort money from them, the very boys on the street are accustomed to beat and insult them, of which treatment they dare not complain"[28] The Zand dynasty came to an end when Lotf Ali Khan Zand was murdered by the Aqa Muhammad Khan Qajar. An instrumental figure in ascension of Aqa Muhammad Khan Qajar to the throne and defeat of Lotf Ali Khan was Hajj Ebrahim Khan Kalantar, whom Naser al-Din Shah Qajar always referred to as Jewish.[29] However Aqa Muhammad Khan's successor, Fath-Ali Shah Qajar did not trust Haji Ebrahim and had him executed. Later Hajj Ebrahim's daughter married the new prime minister and formed the influential Qavam family which remained influential in Iran for at least two centuries.[30] Despite the early cooperation between Jews and Qajars, the Jews eventually suffered under their leadership. The Qajars were also Shia Muslims and many Shia anti-Jewish laws were reinstated. Rabbi David Hillel who visited Persia in 1827 wrote of a forced conversion shortly before his trip. Stern who was a Jewish-Christian missionary wrote that all merchants in Vakil Bazaar are ethnic Jews who in order to save themselves from death rebuke the faith of their fathers constantly.[31]

In the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews: "…they are obliged to live in a separate part of town…; for they are considered as unclean creatures… Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt… For the same reason, they are prohibited to go out when it rains; for it is said the rain would wash dirt off them, which would sully the feet of the Mussulmans… If a Jew is recognized as such in the streets, he is subjected to the greatest insults. The passers-by spit in his face, and sometimes beat him… unmercifully… If a Jew enters a shop for anything, he is forbidden to inspect the goods… Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them... Sometimes the Pomegranates intrude into the dwellings of the Jews and take possession of whatever please them. Should the owner make the least opposition in defense of his property, he incurs the danger of atoning for it with his life... If... a Jew shows himself in the street during the three days of the Katel (Muharram)…, he is sure to be murdered."[32]

in 1868 British charge d'affairs in Iran Sir William Taylour Thomson[33] wrote Iranian Jews are "mostly very poor and excepting in Tehran and some major cities, are much prosecuted and oppressed by the Mahometans (muslims)."[34] After a trip to Europe in 1873 Naser al-Din Shah Qajar improved his relationship towards the Jewish community and relaxed certain restrictions. However this relaxation was not perceived positively by the masses and the Shia clergy. Writing in 1875 a letter from Tehran Jewish community indicates although the Shah is a "righteous king and a lover of all the seed of the Jews as the apple of his eye" and he and his deputy are Jews' Lovers the gentile masses are accustomed to mistreating the Jews.[35] In 1876 in accordance to pressure from Moses Montefiore the Iranian government improved the living conditions of the Jews and reduced their taxes. In 1881 Sir William Taylour Thomson finally succeeded to force the Shah to abolish the Jizya tax for the Persian Jewry[36] Many times Iranian central government wished to help the Jews but did not have enough influence in places where local rulers and Shia clergy were powerful. In one incident of this type in Hamedan in 1875, an argument occurred between a Jewish goldsmith and a customer, eventually a crowd gathered and the goldsmith was accused of blaspheming Islam, a crime worthy of capital punishment in Islamic legal law. People started beating the Jew. He fled to a Mujtahid’s (Islamic Scholar) house who sought to send him to the government authorities. However people were so angry, that they broke into the house and killed him and burned his body. Sir William Taylour Thomson contacted Iranian authorities about this matter and a levy tax was imposed on all Muslim population of the city. This angered the population even more and all of them gathered to stone the Jew, the governor and Shah’s agents. Jewish board of deputees sent gratitude to William Taylour Thomson for intervening on behalf of the Jews.[37]

The following street song which was common in Tehran in the 19th century demonstrates the negative view of average Persian Muslim towards the Persian Jews:

The Jew (Originally Juhud (Persian:جهود), a negative term meaning Jew) who is without honor, Is a nuisance from head to toe, He is a lie from toe to head, May scum cover his father's grave, He is an enemy of the religion of Islam, Don't call him a Jew, he is an infidel, His scarf, his gown and his shirt, His property, his children and his wife, Don't say they are bad, for they belong to you, Take them and screw them, they are lawful to you.[38]

Iranian Jews actively took part in the Persian Constitutional Revolution. Seen here is a Jewish gathering celebrating the second anniversary of the Constitutional Revolution in Tehran.

Lord Curzon described the regional differences in the situation of the Persian Jews in the 19th century: "In Isfahan, where they are said to be 3,700 and where they occupy a relatively better status than elsewhere in Persia, they are not permitted to wear kolah or Persian headdress, to have shops in the bazaar, to build the walls of their houses as high as a Moslem neighbour's, or to ride in the street. In Teheran and Kashan they are also to be found in large numbers and enjoying a fair position. In Shiraz they are very badly off. In Bushire they are prosperous and free from persecution."[39] One European traveler in 1880 wrote : “Hatred [harboured by the gentiles of Kermanshah] toward the Jews is not as overdone as in central Persia”.[40] In 1860 Rabbi Y. Fischel said about the Jews of Isfahan as beaten “from all sides by the gentiles.”[41]

Another European traveler reported a degrading ritual to which Jews were subjected for public amusement:

At every public festival — even at the royal salaam [salute], before the King’s face — the Jews are collected, and a number of them are flung into the hauz or tank, that King and mob may be amused by seeing them crawl out half-drowned and covered with mud. The same kindly ceremony is witnessed whenever a provincial governor holds high festival: there are fireworks and Jews.[42]

In other times, the attacks on the Jews were related to their association with the foreigners. An event of this sort occurred in 1836, when Elyas a Jewish banker for the British Residency in Bushehr "was attacked for doing it's business in the bazaar." Anti-Jewish acts were sometimes linked to resentment of European powers.[43] In this time Iranian Jews who were aware of the growing influence of European Jews in global affairs turned to them for assistance. In 1840 the Jewish community of Hamedan sent an envoy, Nissim Bar Selomah, to meet Western Jewry. He went to England and met with Moses Montefiore, who provided "certificates" against the accusations of the Jews.[44]

In the 19th century, there were many instances of forced conversions and massacres, usually inspired by the Shi'a clergy. A representative of the Alliance Israélite Universelle, a Jewish humanitarian and educational organization, wrote from Tehran in 1894: "…every time that a priest wishes to emerge from obscurity and win a reputation for piety, he preaches war against the Jews".[45] In 1830, the Jews of Tabriz were massacred; the same year saw a forcible conversion of the Jews of Shiraz. In 1839, many Jews were massacred in Mashhad and survivors were forcibly converted. However, European travellers later reported that the Jews of Tabriz and Shiraz continued to practice Judaism in secret despite a fear of further persecutions. In 1860 Jews of Hamedan were accused of mocking the Ta'zieh ceremonies for Imam Husain, several of them were fined and some had their ears and noses cut off as punishment.[46] Jews of Barforush were forcibly converted in 1866; when they were allowed to revert to Judaism thanks to an intervention by the French and British ambassadors, a mob killed 18 Jews of Barforush, burning two of them alive.[47][48] In 1910, the Jews of Shiraz were accused of ritually murdering a Muslim girl. Muslim dwellers of the city plundered the whole Jewish quarter, the first to start looting were the soldiers sent by the local governor to defend the Jews against the enraged mob. Twelve Jews, who tried to defend their property, were killed, and many others were injured.[49] Representatives of the Alliance Israélite Universelle recorded other numerous instances of persecution and debasement of Persian Jews.[50] In many of these cases envoys from foreign governments such as British, French and Ottoman intervened on behalf of the Jews to avoid more serious repercussions.[51] Three international Jewish organizations of Alliance Israélite Universelle, Anglo-Jewish Association and Board of Deputies of British Jews and two key people Adolphe Crémieux and Moses Montefiore were instrumental in securing equal rights for the Iranian Jews and protecting Jews in anti-semitic incidents.

Driven by persecutions, thousands of Persian Jews emigrated to Palestine in the late 19th and early 20th century.[52] Many Jews who decided to stay in Iran moved to Tehran to be close to the Shah and enjoy his protection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ws_in_Iran

Say what you want about problems in Europe, Persia was damn bad too. Jews and indeed all others should do pretty near anything to make sure that evil fanatics including SHIiTE Muslims do not again gain domination over them.....

Call me when the mad mullahs are hanging as high as Haman and Cyrus the Great has been resurrected from the dead.....