Bernie Sanders

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Mr. Perfect » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:25 pm

Can you imagine. A Socialists running and doing well in the Democrat Party. Who could have known.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:56 pm

manolo wrote:Folks,

When I listen to Bernie Sanders I can see that Jesus has moved his heart.

Alex.


Back in NY, I used to tie cauliflower with a migrant worker named Jesus.... Never imagined he would become a political advisor. ;)
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby manolo » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:42 am

Simple Minded wrote:Back in NY, I used to tie cauliflower with a migrant worker named Jesus.... Never imagined he would become a political advisor. ;)


SM,

There is a documented connection between Christianity and socialism. My old theology prof used to talk about it often.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

The above link gives a good synopsis of Christian socialism, including prominent figures in the history of the movement.

I am neither a Christian, nor a socialist, but if I were moved to Christianity I believe it would be through this obvious (to me) connection.

Alex.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby manolo » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:46 am

Mr. Perfect wrote: Who could have known.


Mr P,

Someone who reads their bible.

James 5:1-6

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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:38 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Back in NY, I used to tie cauliflower with a migrant worker named Jesus.... Never imagined he would become a political advisor. ;)


SM,

There is a documented connection between Christianity and socialism. My old theology prof used to talk about it often.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

The above link gives a good synopsis of Christian socialism, including prominent figures in the history of the movement.

I am neither a Christian, nor a socialist, but if I were moved to Christianity I believe it would be through this obvious (to me) connection.

Alex.


Alex,

I find the ideological labels interesting, primarily in the context of how people parse them to rationalize their behavior, attempt to create a "we," or to pigeon hole "them."

In my simple mind, individual behavior is much more interesting than group ideological façade/camouflage. In old school lingo, Talk is cheap!

Would an extensive poll of "Christians" and "Socialists" charitable donation habits reveal that both VOLUNTARILY donate similar percentages of their income to charity? If not, could individual generosity or greed be caused by ideology, or would individual generosity or greed cause one to choose that particular ideology?

Which group would be the first to pick up weapons to coerce others to conform to their ideological standards?

Or are people simply individuals who act in accordance with their own self-interests, regardless of their professed ideals? When the group goes astray, or when it does not suit their needs, it becomes time to divide the group into ever "purer" strains.

And of course, it goes without saying that "their" strain will never be as pure as "our" strain.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Parodite » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:58 pm

SM, maybe you are too sceptical. ;)

Consider that most non-pathological people of all ages will want to help another human being in serious need and great distress when they encounter them at close distance. Think accidents in traffic. This behavior is very common among mammals of same species. The question whether they do so because of self-interest, authentic altruism or peer-pressure in a group (think Church).. I find out of touch with reality. What makes you wanna help somebody who was just hit by a car close to you and is seriously hurt bleeding and making weird gurgling sounds laying on the asphalt in a deformed composure? What is it in you that "demands" to help one way or other? I think it is simple hard wired instinct and "mirror brain cells" working at full throttle. If you like it or not.

Go from there.. and extrapolate a bit. Now you are not physically present at close proximity, but see things on tv. Or you hear about things on the radio, read it in a news paper. The instinctive reflexes are not triggered much.. especially after you have seen same images nuff times. Maybe a little squeeze in the stomach feeling. But what can you do? Nothing if it is too far away. But still, everybody will agree that those things ought not to be, that there is violence that needs to stop, that a victim of a traffic accident needs to be helped, cared for. Even if none of those things happen in your nieghborhood around the corner. Why is that? Because we can easily envision ourselves in close proximity.. and know that our instinctive reflexes would scream "Stop this!", "Get help he is bleeding seriously it looks very bad!"

So, in these maybe extreme cases, to care about "far away people" is still quite natural. Here, to also introduce philosopharsicums and doubt people's intentions and motives is IMHO out of touch with reality.

So the question seems to be: when does thinking about "over there" people become a suspect activity? People who have experienced abject poverty themselves tend to want to "think for" i.e. empathise with "over there" poor people more easily. Cause they know what it is like. So they might press for more social politics and help the poor. Maybe they do charity more eagerly themselves and develop socialist ideas, or at least that the state should provide for a dignified social net for all. People who never experienced povery more likely just doze away in front of TV digesting their hamburgers and don't want to be bothered by any Gvt interfering with them or anyone else. Let alone take their money.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:48 pm

well said Parodite. But I think you missed this sentence:

"Or are people simply individuals who act in accordance with their own self-interests, regardless of their professed ideals?" Better wording would have been "professed labels."

Observe a right winger, a left winger, a Christian, a Socialist, etc. for months or even decades, and the observer might not be able to discern their "chosen" ideology. When they profess they are a _______, the observer might be surprised.

Do left wing people spend less on themselves and their families, and more on other people than right wing people? Not in my experience. But to point that out, and call the self-professed left a right winger, may be taken as an insult. Why?

Human behavior seems remarkably similar, regardless of differences in professed self-labeling. The interesting aspect to my simple mind is when Fred professes a label that seems contradictory to his behavior/lifestyle, perhaps to gain approval in a specific audience, or, perhaps for some other motivation. The observer determines definition.

Back to a previous topic: Is Mother Teresa a selfish individual, or an altruist? Could it be proven either way? The observer who desires to apply a label to Mother Teresa will use their own definitions of that label.

Only Mother Teresa knows her own motivations.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby manolo » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:47 pm

Simple Minded wrote:Or are people simply individuals who act in accordance with their own self-interests, regardless of their professed ideals?


SM,

I shall be writing something on Rand shortly.

Alex.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:41 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Or are people simply individuals who act in accordance with their own self-interests, regardless of their professed ideals?


SM,

I shall be writing something on Rand shortly.

Alex.


alex,

Thanks. I will look forward to reading it. Even more interesting than reading Rand, is reading how other people interpret her.

I would guess she probably authored around 8,000 pages during her lifetime. To hear/read how others summarize her after reading a couple dozen, a couple hundred, or a couple thousand pages, or better yet, listening to the opinions of a couple friends, is always interesting.

Kinda like when people sum up socialism or communism or capitalism or religion in a few sentences.

We all seem to be looking thru our own eyeballs! Hopefully, it will always be so.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:24 am

manolo wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote: Who could have known.


Mr P,

Someone who reads their bible.

James 5:1-6

Alex.

The scriptures even say Democrats are socialists? Amazing.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Parodite » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:07 pm

Simple Minded wrote:well said Parodite. But I think you missed this sentence:

"Or are people simply individuals who act in accordance with their own self-interests, regardless of their professed ideals?" Better wording would have been "professed labels."


I didn't miss it and even think I got it. You don't tire of repeating it and you do it well and for months (years?) already. ;) Let me try say it in my own words:

SM according to Parodite wrote:You take labels that people put on themselves and others with a huge chunk of salt. And you worry that when people get all caught up in their labeling and ideologies.. they tend to bother about far-away people they don't know personally. Maybe with the best of intentions... but those have a track record of being a road that leads to Hell and unintended consequences. So be careful what you wish for.

You point out that the best - maybe even only - thing to rely on is our personal responsibility; reject/ignore all far-away "saviors" who claim to come to your rescue. And certainly never wait for outside help.. even if you could need some.

The world of labeling and competing ideologies is also an endless source of philosophical amusement and paradox in World SM. Us-versus-them, you-versus-me... where everybody wants to be the parent of the other. Or worse it devolves into wanting to control others just for the fun of it - the political arena then attracts all kinds of control freaks who are hungry for just that: domineering, manipulating others and enjoy being a public Star or Hero. A magnet for psychopaths and narcissists. "I know what is good for you, what you need. I even know what is good for all others and... as a bonus defeat our common enemy! In short, I know what is good for everybody... make me Your King!"

If all this means that we all better be Rugged Individualist of sorts... is a question better asked to Mother Theresa.


Just want you to feel understood Bro :P Anything I missed, you want to add?
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby manolo » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:58 pm

Simple Minded wrote:We all seem to be looking thru our own eyeballs! Hopefully, it will always be so.


SM,

I am not an emotivist myself, but respect that school of philosophy.

Alex.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:48 am

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:well said Parodite. But I think you missed this sentence:

"Or are people simply individuals who act in accordance with their own self-interests, regardless of their professed ideals?" Better wording would have been "professed labels."


I didn't miss it and even think I got it. You don't tire of repeating it and you do it well and for months (years?) already. ;) Let me try say it in my own words:

SM according to Parodite wrote:You take labels that people put on themselves and others with a huge chunk of salt. And you worry that when people get all caught up in their labeling and ideologies.. they tend to bother about far-away people they don't know personally. Maybe with the best of intentions... but those have a track record of being a road that leads to Hell and unintended consequences. So be careful what you wish for.

You point out that the best - maybe even only - thing to rely on is our personal responsibility; reject/ignore all far-away "saviors" who claim to come to your rescue. And certainly never wait for outside help.. even if you could need some.

The world of labeling and competing ideologies is also an endless source of philosophical amusement and paradox in World SM. Us-versus-them, you-versus-me... where everybody wants to be the parent of the other. Or worse it devolves into wanting to control others just for the fun of it - the political arena then attracts all kinds of control freaks who are hungry for just that: domineering, manipulating others and enjoy being a public Star or Hero. A magnet for psychopaths and narcissists. "I know what is good for you, what you need. I even know what is good for all others and... as a bonus defeat our common enemy! In short, I know what is good for everybody... make me Your King!"

If all this means that we all better be Rugged Individualist of sorts... is a question better asked to Mother Theresa.


Just want you to feel understood Bro :P Anything I missed, you want to add?


:D

110% accurate. I still feel rugged, but not so..... individualistic! and strangely less alone.

How much do I owe you Doc? ;)
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:50 am

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:We all seem to be looking thru our own eyeballs! Hopefully, it will always be so.


SM,

I am not an emotivist myself, but respect that school of philosophy.

Alex.


alex,

I thought emotivists were those little smiley face thingies.... :D :) ;) :( :o :shock:

I had to look that one up, never heard the term before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism

This could take a while to distill down into simplemindedness, seems kinda like intuition, or listening to the small still voice within.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:46 am

So a socialist is a strong contender for the Democrat nomination. Wow.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Parodite » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:49 pm

Simple Minded wrote: :D

110% accurate. I still feel rugged, but not so..... individualistic! and strangely less alone.

How much do I owe you Doc? ;)


Nothing much Bro ;) just a willingness on your part to consider the points I made earlier. Like you mentioned.. here on OTNOT we like to push the envelope a bit further; even beyond World SM or World Parodite. Challenge me please! :P
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Zack Morris » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:53 pm

Mr P is right. This isn't too surprising. What is surprising is that a tax-loving anti-free trade liberal is leading the Republican field.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Enki » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:29 pm

Zack Morris wrote:Mr P is right. This isn't too surprising. What is surprising is that a tax-loving anti-free trade liberal is leading the Republican field.


Yeah, it just goes to show that belligerent identity politics plays better than actual policy.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:25 pm

I guess we're talking about Donald Trump, but the question is if he is a tax and spend liberal why do tax and spend liberals hate him so much.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:57 am

Parodite wrote:
Nothing much Bro ;) just a willingness on your part to consider the points I made earlier. Like you mentioned.. here on OTNOT we like to push the envelope a bit further; even beyond World SM or World Parodite. Challenge me please! :P


I'm not really sure where to challenge you. I have considered the posts you have made, and I think we are on the same page on most issues (60%+?), we do seem to differ on a few definitions. Which is not at all surprising, given our differing backgrounds.

As you have noted, I am fascinated by how the same world can mean different things to two people who live a few hundred miles apart, or who are a decade or so apart in age, or while on the job/producing Joe is an X and when he clocks out/consuming he becomes a Y. That is why I have little interest in what flag Fred happens to be waving at any given time.

I would guess that given more time, and exposure, even the OTNOTers who like to butt heads the most (ideological buttheads?) would agree 40%+ of the time, in actual reality, rather than virtual reality. The opposing ideologies voiced by the multiple Mr. X's & multiple Mr. Y's at OTNOT seem to be two sides of the same personality, IMSMO. I think I grew up with all of them. I won't list names as I think 90% of them would take my evaluation of them as very, very similar to their preferred ideological foes as an insult.

I have come to the impression that "self-interest" is often taken in an ideological/intellectual/political setting as a "bad" word, more akin to greed, miserliness, or coercion for many people, rather than what seems the more obvious and practical definitions of cooperation, charity, and compassion. Cultural differences? Or simply the desire to imagine dragons, so one can rationalize/project one's greatness as a dragon slayer?

I do agree with you that humans seem hardwired to be nice and compassionate. It is in their self-interest to do so. Imagine that.

Spirituality or evolution? Let the eggheads beat (pun intended) their brains out trying to ascertain.

Of course, we (all y'all of us) can always challenge each other in terms of details and costs, but like professional politicians, none of us here want to work that hard, and with so many variables to choose from, the pro & con cases to be made are extremely subjective. There just does not seem to be an audience for detailed cost/benefit data. The bantering seems more entertaining.

cheers mate.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Zack Morris » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:41 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:I guess we're talking about Donald Trump, but the question is if he is a tax and spend liberal why do tax and spend liberals hate him so much.


Because apart from his vague economic policy, he resembles you a little too closely.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby noddy » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:59 am

in the rest of the world (tm) im seeing alot of Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho as a leading contender

id vote for him.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Mr. Perfect » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:56 pm

Zack Morris wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I guess we're talking about Donald Trump, but the question is if he is a tax and spend liberal why do tax and spend liberals hate him so much.


Because apart from his vague economic policy, he resembles you a little too closely.

I'm a tax and spend liberal?
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby manolo » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:49 pm

Simple Minded wrote:This could take a while to distill down into simplemindedness, seems kinda like intuition, or listening to the small still voice within.


SM,

I think this stuff is up your alley. Emotivists are subjective, they argue that morality is not about what is right objectively but about what a person feels is right for them. It is a view which is not without merit; however the notion 'this is right for me' is very easily transposed into 'this is right'. Too easily?

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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Postby Mr. Perfect » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:52 pm

manolo wrote: the notion 'this is right for me' is very easily transposed into 'this is right'. Too easily?

Alex.

Genius. I had thought you had outlived your usefulness.
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