The Donald....the newest savior.....

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The Alex Jones vote is a really interesting demo to grab.

Won't they have trouble voting with so many electronic signals near polling stations stealing their brainwaves?

[manolo]

The more people see him the more they like him. Watching him speak its easy to understand.

Mr P,

I think you are correct. Sticking with the Obama deal on Iran, taxing the rich, supporting legal gay marriage - what's not to like? This guy appeals to everyman.

Alex.

Very few democrats believe this. Will you help me convince them that Trump is an obama 3rd term? Trump is in the lead but better safe than sorry.

Mr P,

I haven't written a serious opinion on this thread, so far; just entertainment.

So, the carrots Trump is dangling to the centre ground in politics may or may not be sincerely meant. My suspicion is that he is working the crowd. As a genuine candidate for POTUS, trump is actually somewhere South of Palin IMHO.

The voters? An old stager once told me "I would vote for a monkey as long as it was a Labour monkey." I see this effect happening here, even in your own good self maybe. But, no, Trump is not an Obama third term, in office he would be the second great example of democracy going wrong. I have some faith (does that even mean anything?) that the voters will see through this goon - God willing.

Alex.

[Endovelico]

The more people see him the more they like him. Watching him speak its easy to understand.

Mr P,

I think you are correct. Sticking with the Obama deal on Iran, taxing the rich, supporting legal gay marriage - what's not to like? This guy appeals to everyman.

Alex.

Very few democrats believe this. Will you help me convince them that Trump is an obama 3rd term? Trump is in the lead but better safe than sorry.

Mr P,

I haven't written a serious opinion on this thread, so far; just entertainment.

So, the carrots Trump is dangling to the centre ground in politics may or may not be sincerely meant. My suspicion is that he is working the crowd. As a genuine candidate for POTUS, trump is actually somewhere South of Palin IMHO.

The voters? An old stager once told me "I would vote for a monkey as long as it was a Labour monkey." I see this effect happening here, even in your own good self maybe. But, no, Trump is not an Obama third term, in office he would be the second great example of democracy going wrong. I have some faith (does that even mean anything?) that the voters will see through this goon - God willing.

Alex.

I would actually wish for a Trump victory if I weren't truly afraid he would end up by getting us into a nuclear war. Not that other candidates wouldn't do that as well, if they won, but Trump's idea of American "greatness" would get us there faster...I keep wondering how far from Lisbon would any nuclear device fall...Hopefully there isn't anything in the Iberian Peninsula worth nuking...

[manolo]

I would actually wish for a Trump victory if I weren't truly afraid he would end up by getting us into a nuclear war. Not that other candidates wouldn't do that as well, if they won, but Trump's idea of American "greatness" would get us there faster...I keep wondering how far from Lisbon would any nuclear device fall...Hopefully there isn't anything in the Iberian Peninsula worth nuking...

Endo,

Good point. Foreign policy drowned Palin early on and hopefully the same will happen with Trump. He is too close to all that 'New American Century' c*** that got us into the mess Europe is still clearing up.

If Trump did get in we would have to rely on Vladimir Putin's diplomacy and patience, which goes a long way IMHO but there are limits when dealing with Dr Strangelove.

Alex.

[Typhoon]

The former SU collapsed under it own contradictions.
Raygun had little, if anything, to do with it.

All that goes to show is how little most Americans know about their own history.

A more thorough rebuttal has never been written .

Let's do Occam's razor.

I rather if you didn't. Every time you try to use it you just end up cutting yourself.

Would a person from Japan or a person from America know more about an American President.

The sad [and I would argue eventually dangerous] reality is that I could easily teach a course in US civics to the overwhelming majority of Americans rather than be taught by them.

Anecdotal evidence suggested for years that Americans were not particularly well-informed. As foreign visitors long ago observed, Americans are vastly inferior in their knowledge of world geography compared with Europeans. (The old joke is that "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.") But it was never clear until the postwar period how ignorant Americans are. For it was only then that social scientists began measuring in a systematic manner what Americans actually know. The results were devastating.

The most comprehensive surveys, the National Election Studies (NES), were carried out by the University of Michigan beginning in the late 1940s. What these studies showed was that Americans fall into three categories with regard to their political knowledge. A tiny percentage know a lot about politics, up to 50%-60% know enough to answer very simple questions, and the rest know next to nothing.

Contrary to expectations, by many measures the surveys showed the level of ignorance remaining constant over time. In the 1990s, political scientists Michael X. Delli Carpini and Scott Keeter concluded that there was statistically little difference between the knowledge of the parents of the Silent Generation of the 1950s, the parents of the Baby Boomers of the 1960s, and American parents today. (By some measures, Americans are dumber today than their parents of a generation ago.)

Some of the numbers are hard to fathom in a country in which for at least a century all children have been required by law to attend grade school or be home-schooled. Even if people do not closely follow the news, one would expect them to be able to answer basic civics questions, but only a small minority can.

In 1986, only 30% knew that Roe v. Wade was the Supreme Court decision that ruled abortion legal more than a decade earlier. In 1991, Americans were asked how long the term of a United States senator is. Just 25% correctly answered six years. How many senators are there? A poll a few years ago found that only 20% know that there are 100 senators, though the number has remained constant for the last half century (and is easy to remember). Encouragingly, today the number of Americans who can correctly identify and name the three branches of government is up to 40%.

Polls over the past three decades measuring Americans' knowledge of history show similarly dismal results. What happened in 1066? Just 10% know it is the date of the Norman Conquest. Who said the "world must be made safe for democracy"? Just 14% know it was Woodrow Wilson. Which country dropped the nuclear bomb? Only 49% know it was their own country. Who was America's greatest president? According to a Gallup poll in 2005, a majority answer that it was a president from the last half century: 20% said Reagan, 15% Bill Clinton, 12% John Kennedy, 5% George W. Bush. Only 14% picked Lincoln and only 5%, Washington.

And the worst president? For years Americans would include in the list Herbert Hoover. But no more. Most today do not know who Herbert Hoover was, according to the University of Pennsylvania's National Annenberg Election Survey in 2004. Just 43% could correctly identify him.

The only history questions a majority of Americans can answer correctly are the most basic ones. What happened at Pearl Harbor? A great majority know: 84%. What was the Holocaust? Nearly 70% know. (Thirty percent don't?) But it comes as something of a shock that, in 1983, just 81% knew who Lee Harvey Oswald was and that, in 1985, only 81% could identify Martin Luther King, Jr.

What Voters Don't Know

Who these poor souls were who didn't know who Martin Luther King was we cannot be sure. Research suggests that they were probably impoverished (the poor tend to know less on the whole about politics and history than others) or simply unschooled, categories which usually overlap. But even Americans in the middle class who attend college exhibit profound ignorance. A report in 2007 published by the Intercollegiate Studies Institute found that on average 14,000 randomly selected college students at 50 schools around the country scored under 55 (out of 100) on a test that measured their knowledge of basic American civics. Less than half knew that Yorktown was the last battle of the American Revolution. Surprisingly, seniors often tested lower than freshmen. (The explanation was apparently that many students by their senior year had forgotten what they learned in high school.)

http://www.alternet.org/story/90161/ign ... pid_are_we

The libertarian findings and conclusions are the same:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commen ... an-liberty

As are those of the US right:

http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/24/we- ... -ignorant/

Or one may spend a moment reading the post over at that other board to quickly come to the same conclusions.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The sad reality is that I could teach a course in US civics to the overwhelming majority of Americans rather than be taught.

So you are arguing that Americans aren't American enough for you?

[Typhoon]

The sad reality is that I could teach a course in US civics to the overwhelming majority of Americans rather than be taught.

So you are arguing that Americans aren't American enough for you?

Just for themselves.

[noddy]

the cool bit of multiculturalism is that their is no definition.

why should some fresh off the boat immigrant give a lavender about the previous wasp culture.

--

this was in reference to the % of people not knowing various american reference points above.

[Mr. Perfect]

The Alex Jones vote is a really interesting demo to grab.

Won't they have trouble voting with so many electronic signals near polling stations stealing their brainwaves?

Always a risk. And AJ is just one guy of that type, there are lots more.

[Mr. Perfect]

And it has been far too long since the European leftist has felt the fear of American nuclear weapons. Far too long.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Even if we accept that those studies were on the level; that there was no misunderstandings between surveyors and the surveyed and that congeries of data collectors, across generations, are actually comparable to be compilable, it wouldn't tell us what popular opinion (all your links below) wishes it told us. Maybe I'd take it more seriously if these sorts of "kids today" arguments didn't say and do things like this:

Anecdotal evidence suggested for years that Americans were not particularly well-informed. As foreign visitors long ago observed, Americans are vastly inferior in their knowledge of world geography compared with Europeans.

But not Mexicans or Canadians or the Japanese and British for that matter. (Look at the numbers, people all over the globe have trouble figuring out what's on the ummm...globe.)

Geographical knowledge always correlates well with either social or vocational travel, easy access to foreign lands and not a nexus for an economic or cultural world. That's what the Swedes and Italians always finish around with these sort of questions. They also have high rates or youthful travel and high multilingual rates.

The most comprehensive surveys, the National Election Studies (NES), were carried out by the University of Michigan beginning in the late 1940s. What these studies showed was that Americans fall into three categories with regard to their political knowledge. A tiny percentage know a lot about politics, up to 50%-60% know enough to answer very simple questions, and the rest know next to nothing.

But here is where the muckrackers really start with the irritants: "A tiny percentage know a lot about politics" doesn't mean anything. What constitutes knowing a lot about politics? Whose politics? What would sufficient political knowledge look like exactly? Does the man on the street need to know as much as a party leader? If this is so important, why not?

"Up to 50% or 60% know enough to answer very simple questions" is another way of saying: half or more than half of the country is politically engaged to a healthy amount and do not let these things dominate their lives in a show of prudence.

Some of the numbers are hard to fathom in a country in which for at least a century all children have been required by law to attend grade school or be home-schooled.

Here's the most insidious trick all these outlets use over and over and over again- read that sentence and then read the next one:

Even if people do not closely follow the news, one would expect them to be able to answer basic civics questions, but only a small minority can.

There, smuggled into the heart of the verbiage is the thesis of the piece. Cause we know news followers know what's up dear reader, even if you don't know how to use a map, and you have more of an inside track from reading insight here than at a competitors. The setup equivocates schooling with following the news in a way to associate the two for the reader.

What Voters Don't Know

That these articles and most media out there is a balance of advertising with suggestions with how one should think.

[Mr. Perfect]

Some people will believe anything bad they hear about Americans. Resentment.

[manolo]

Man. Trump derangement syndrome this early. I like it.

I've always found hatred of America is just below the surface of a leftist if you just apply the right pressure. Just below the surface.

Mr P,

I'm sure you don't include me in the above.

There is a deep fondness in my heart for this great American and all who love him.



Alex.

[Mr. Perfect]

Yeah. Americans according to polls consider him our worst President in history, and made their fee!ings known by delivering the largest political collapse to the Democrats in our history. He came into office with a near record majority and 6 years later put the party in superminority status due to abysmal domestic and foreign policy results.

I'm not sure if the GOP would have survived without him. I think Hillary would have put us down for good. Thanks to obama we ride high again. As the supermajority party.

[manolo]

I'm not sure if the GOP would have survived without him.

Mr P,

I take a less extreme view of politics than yours. The ground of what is called 'left' and 'right' in political discourse is well established around the world and through history. Parties change a little, but the politics is expressed - as they say 'nature finds a way'.

Alex.

[Mr. Perfect]

Not according to people here. The consensus on this website is that liberal and conservative are undefinable and the 2 parties are indistinguishable. They literally can't tell the difference.

You and i may be the only sane ones . I've always been able to tell the difference.

But I also believe that left and right are irreconcilable. It's a death match and in America we're finally honing in on a conclusion. I think obama played a major role in our comeback and eventual victory.

[manolo]

Not according to people here. The consensus on this website is that liberal and conservative are undefinable and the 2 parties are indistinguishable. They literally can't tell the difference.

You and i may be the only sane ones . I've always been able to tell the difference.

But I also believe that left and right are irreconcilable. It's a death match and in America we're finally honing in on a conclusion. I think obama played a major role in our comeback and eventual victory.

Mr P,

This is a decent discussion and I'm happy to put away my peashooter.

Yes, left and right are irreconcilable. This, IMHO reflects the way of politics. So, when Obama started all that 'red state, blue state' stuff I cringed. Surely they weren't going to believe him? Well the GOP certainly didn't and they fought just as hard as they could to prove him wrong. In this, Obama was a gift to the GOP making them an opposition with a purpose.

The notion that opposing political parties are 'all the same' is a corrosive thing and it has had a bad effect here in the UK also. I partly blame Blair, but that is another story. What is required now is 'clear blue water' between Trump and Hillary (if they are the combatants). Trump is trying to be all things to all men, but Hillary has an open goal with women, Hispanics, black people and various social issues. What Trump has is business savvy and an early Obama-like sales pitch (Yes we can!).

These two will be throwing different rocks at each other most of the time, but my guess is that Trump has a trump with the economy. Against that Hillary has foreign policy experience and a more hawkish mode than Obama. If it comes down to fear of nukes, voters might back away from Trump, just as some internet posters are doing.

Alex.

PS - You mentioned fear of American nukes earlier. Well, any nukes can give us a nasty sting and once they fly I don't think there is a safe place on the planet. A balance of power with the big three is all we can rely on with nukes. It's thin stuff but all we've got. MAD.

[Typhoon]

And it has been far too long since the European leftist has felt the fear of American nuclear weapons. Far too long.

Your weapons.

Their land.

"We had to destroy Europe in order to save it."

I don't know of anyone who is keen on staging a real version of "On the Beach" in their backyard.

[Mr. Perfect]

I dont think anyone is suggesting that Europe can be saved. Rather, as we speak their replacements are colonizing those lands.

Good thoughts e will reply when I can.

[Typhoon]

Some people will believe anything bad they hear about Americans. Resentment.

Some are resentful.

However, not the case in my pointing out and backing up this point.

The survey results are completely consistent with my own experience while living in the US Midwest.

[Typhoon]

I dont think anyone is suggesting that Europe can be saved. Rather, as we speak their replacements are colonizing those lands.

. . .

The country with the largest Muslim population is France at about 7.5%.

The total population of Europe is 742.5 million.

I won't be holding my breath . . .

[YMix]

Colonization is the wrong word. Angela Merkel has very recently said that there are no limits on political asylum. While that sounds nice, the key is to understand that migrants will be asked to prove that they are political refugees. Those who can't (also known as "most of them") will be sent home. While Syrians are the biggest national group among the refugees, the rest of the migrants who arrived in Germany in the first half of this year are Kosovars, Albanians, Serbs, Iraqis, Afghans, Macedonians, Eritreans, Nigerians and Pakistanis. I don't think any of these people can prove political persecution at home.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Colonization is the wrong word. Angela Merkel has very recently said that there are no limits on political asylum. While that sounds nice, the key is to understand that migrants will be asked to prove that they are political refugees. Those who can't (also known as "most of them") will be sent home. While Syrians are the biggest national group among the refugees, the rest of the migrants who arrived in Germany in the first half of this year are Kosovars, Albanians, Serbs, Iraqis, Afghans, Macedonians, Eritreans, Nigerians and Pakistanis. I don't think any of these people can prove political persecution at home.

It sounds like a very resource intensive process and one which only works if the numbers are not overwhelming for the officials.

[YMix]

As long as they keep the camps supplied...

[Mr. Perfect]

Colonization is the wrong word. Angela Merkel has very recently said that there are no limits on political asylum. While that sounds nice, the key is to understand that migrants will be asked to prove that they are political refugees. Those who can't (also known as "most of them") will be sent home. While Syrians are the biggest national group among the refugees, the rest of the migrants who arrived in Germany in the first half of this year are Kosovars, Albanians, Serbs, Iraqis, Afghans, Macedonians, Eritreans, Nigerians and Pakistanis. I don't think any of these people can prove political persecution at home.

Sounds like Europe, both right and left, is full of Trumpian Nativists. This should make Trump's election that much easier, for how can the left vilify Trump for what all of left wing Europe is doing.