Europe

[Endovelico]

Do you think that the Greeks [Italians, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.] bear any responsibility for their current situation and predicament?

Of course. But to be competitive an economy needs a level of knowledge and investment which may take decades to acquire.

But compete in what field... making cars as good as Audi or BMW? It seems to me that competition is the wrong angle of attack here.

Just as a thought experiment, consider doing the totally opposite: aim at becoming almost 100% self-sufficient. You don't per-se need an import-export frenzy to get anywhere. The Iberian Peninsula as market place can provide for most. And there is Northern Africa for cheap labor if needed. Why obsess over Germans and compete with the northern stiffies? Doesn't make sense.

Living within your means is always a good thing to do. Knowing what it means to live, as well. I always find the mediterraneans much better equiped for meaningful living. Germany is a factory, nothing poetic about it. But to depict them as Nazis...

Self-sufficiency is not an option today, except in terms of value: a country is self-sufficient when its imports equal its exports, in value. So, we certainly do not want to compete with Germany in kind. But our exports must be sufficient to pay for the things we need and do not produce.

As to the Germans being Nazi... I don't think they consciously adhere to the Nazi ideas, but how can a nation support Nazism, until military defeat forced them to change tack, without some inbuilt sympathy for those ideas? Fascism existed in other countries, but nowhere did it become an industrial death machine like it did in Germany. There must be something in the German psyche which allowed for such an aberration. Are German policies in Europe, Nazi? No. But the total disregard for other peoples (Greeks, for instance) and for the hardship their policies cause, is definitely proto-Nazi.

[Endovelico]

I'm not sure how we blocked your development. We also opened our markets to you...

Free trade between countries with different levels of development always works to the advantage of the more developed. Free competition, in itself, is an obstacle to the development of viable firms in the less developed countries. When you start from scratch, how can you compete with long established, well dimensioned foreign firms? You would need some temporary form of protection, and that is not compatible with free trade agreements. The more developed northern European countries knew this very well, and that's why they imposed strict competition rules in the EU. We were stupid enough to accept that, and now the only way out is defaulting on our external debt and restructure our economies in such a way as to be able to become competitive.

[monster_gardener]

.
.. squid, octopus & sponges ..........
.

That was good one MG, that was a good one

4get about Iran or Arabs paying for anything, for NATO vote or for anything else

not even Gay only Islands or vanilla sort of tourism will brink the bacon home

well

though

there is a Jackpot card

The New Silk Road

China

look, MG

Long term, China wants a backdoor to European markets

Greece, on the Mediterranean, is the best location for Chinese products to enter Europe

basically sell Greece to China

China already upgrading Greek ports and imports infrastructures .. for Chinese goods

take it from there

.

NYT Mag | The Way Greeks Live Now

By many indicators, Greece is devolving into something unprecedented in modern Western experience. A quarter of all Greek companies have gone out of business since 2009, and half of all small businesses in the country say they are unable to meet payroll. The suicide rate increased by 40 percent in the first half of 2011. A barter economy has sprung up, as people try to work around a broken financial system. Nearly half the population under 25 is unemployed. Last September, organizers of a government-sponsored seminar on emigrating to Australia, an event that drew 42 people a year earlier, were overwhelmed when 12,000 people signed up. Greek bankers told me that people had taken about one-third of their money out of their accounts; many, it seems, were keeping what savings they had under their beds or buried in their backyards. One banker, part of whose job these days is persuading people to keep their money in the bank, said to me, “Who would trust a Greek bank?”

The situation at the macro level is, if anything, even more transformational. The Chinese have largely taken over Piraeus, Greece’s main port, with an eye to make it a conduit for shipping goods into Europe. Qatar is looking to invest $5 billion in various projects in Greece, including tourism infrastructure. Other, relatively flush Europeans are trying to make “Greece the Florida of Europe,” Theodore Pelagidis, a Greek economist at the University of Piraeus, told me, referring in particular to plans to turn islands into expensive retirement homes for wealthy people from other parts of the continent. Whether or not the country pays its debts, he went on, other nations and foreign companies “now understand the Greek government is powerless, so in the future they will take over viable assets and run parts of the country by themselves.”

At this rate there will still be a Greece, just no Greek inhabitants.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Typhoon.

At this rate there will still be a Greece, just no Greek inhabitants.

Heard on NPR, Greeks leaving for America.... New York.

With Greece’s economy reeling and its unemployment rate running more than 20 percent, growing numbers of Greeks are leaving their homeland. Many are landing in America, but for some, that landing is hard.

http://www.theworld.org/2012/02/greeks-new-york/

[monster_gardener]

.

I'm sure some of you are offended when I suggest that Germans, as a whole, are not intelligent.

But everything Germans - and their idiotic chancellor - are doing only proves the point that they don't understand what they are doing nor do they know the consequences of their impositions.

And because they are incredibly arrogant - another sign of stupidity - they will never recognize they are wrong. Because, by definition, they can't be wrong. To force them to recognize they are wrong one must beat them up to a pulp, as it happened twice in the 20th century. Any other country would have tried to negotiate surrender much sooner, but those who are always right can't be defeated.

So they plunge ahead regardless of consequences.

The question is no longer whether we should keep Greece in Europe, but whether we should keep Germany ...

.

Endo ,

if you guys do not want Germany

We, Iranian, would love to have them

Loooooove those girls .. and sausage .. and Hefe Bier

Prost


.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

Is that bier fermented for 2 days or 3 days ?

http://islamic-replies.ucoz.com/Rebut_W ... ution.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran

.

Das Alcohol "verbot" in Islam quite similar to celibacy in Catholicism

Was introduced later, based on dubious hear say

In fact, am sure, lots of dietary stuff in Islam neither from G_d nor Moh but from Omar

all this, protocol & ceremony, just to make a case for business of religion

otherwise

religion very simple .. be a good human being .. that's all

G_d would love you if you are a good human being and not because you don't eat pork-chops

Not eating this or drinking that, or not putting milk & meat in the same fridge does not make one a good human being

Spirit of G_d is corrupted by crooks


.

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Azari

otherwise

religion very simple .. be a good human being .. that's all

That's the case in "American Popular Religion"

Good has to be more than the bad..........

Partly agree..............

But generally not what is taught in churches I have attended...........

Original Sin in the Christian Tradition ...... Need to choose to serve/allow Jesus to Rescue you (Salvation by faith) .....

Or need to be lucky/Chosen by G_d in the Calvinist version...... (Faith again but actions will show if you are saved)

Or Original Ignorance & Karma in the Eastern/Buddhist/Hindu tradition...... Need to have right knowledge,thought & actions (often involve not eating & not drinking as well as not harming).........

In the simplest format: at least to the extent of calling on the power of G_d/Amida Buddha/Kwannon Bosatsu/108 names of Tara the Savioress......the Lotus Sutra etc......... And ultimately becoming one with "G_d/G_dess"

G_d would love you if you are a good human being and not because you don't eat pork-chops

I largely agree* but Reminds me of a funny cartoon: hyper-orthodox Jew eats bacon once... ends up in Hell with serial child murderer John Wayne Gacy...... when asked what he was in for says "I don't want to talk about it" ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacy

Not eating this or drinking that, or not putting milk & meat in the same fridge does not make one a good human being

True......... Hitler was a vegetarian............ was even a non smoker till he went to Hell

Then again, important to define terms...........

What is good?......... What is evil?..............

Are both necessary?..............

Necessary can be serious as in "Time Bandits" ..................Is evil necessary for free will: being able to choose between good and evil **

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Bandits

What is good/evil can be funny..................

Remember a young lady once saying:

Sticks and stones may break my bones
But whips and chains excite me........
So throw me down & tie me up
And show me that you like me..........




*Buddhists and the pigs may disagree......... I am unsure........... My pets are people/children even......... butt still eat ham .......... know a man with a pet pig..........

**So perhaps for a Calvinist evil would be unnecessary............. Except that G_d is sovereign............. but we/Uz know what lies at the end of that road........Allah............

[monster_gardener]

How the Greeks - and a few other people - see Adolfin Merkel:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TkuU2Kvb3Kc/T ... r+rose.jpg

So Chancellor Merkel is now free to invoke Godwin's Law in any future discussion with the Greeks.

Time for Southern European countries to go their own, collective way. A Mediterranean Union made up of Portugal, Spain, Italy, Slovenia, Greece, Cyprus and Malta, and open to future accession by Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Tunisia and Morocco, would be a much more appealing proposition than the present submission to the frozen brained northern Europe...

Do you think that the Greeks [Italians, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.] bear any responsibility for their current situation and predicament?

Thank you Very Much for your post, Typhoon.

They have made mistakes both strategic and tactical.........

For Portugal and Spain who AIUI had responsible budgets and DRACONIAN bankruptcy laws it was strategic: getting themselves connected with the European Union, the Euro and German banks......... Had better sense in WW2........ This time they got caught in the blast radius of the financial implosion.........
Though AIUI even the German banks had to get bailed out by US/uz........

For Greece, the mistake was also tactical...... Greeks have been irresponsible but again the strategic mistake was bigger...........

Being merciful and statesmanlike with Germany after WW2.......... Not demanding the war reparations after German looted, starved and ruined Europe......

That can be corrected:

Keep Talking Greece lists the debt owed to Greece in this lengthy quote which summarizes the issue fully:

"According to estimated figures compiled by "National Council for the Claim of German Debts, led by the Resistance hero Manolis Glezos, the debt now exceeds, in present value, 162 billion euros plus interest." This contrasts with other sources who put the figure at 70 billion. The Athens News cites the unpaid debt as resulting from:

The obligation to pay compensation for the loss mainly of vessels (due to bombing, torpedoing, sinking or captivity) during the period of Greek neutrality, before the Italy's and Germany's invasions. The forced "occupation loan." The $3.5 billion loan now stands at $25 billion with inflation and interest payments taken into account.

The reparations acknowledged by the Paris Peace Conference (1946) to be paid by Germany for damage caused to the Greek economy

The payment of compensation to the victims of the atrocities perpetuated by the German occupation army. The victims are 1,125,960 people. (38,960 executed, 12,000 dead from stray bullets, 70,000 killed in the battle field, 105,000 dead in concentration camps in Germany, 600,000 deaths from starvation).

Greek archaeological treasures stolen by Nazi Germany."

Ritschl accurately predicted that continued anti-Greek sentiment in the German media would inevitably push the issue of war reparations back onto the center stage. The Greek government, which is usually reserved on the subject, may now be forced to address the issue.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/319064#ixzz1mkQl9200

http://digitaljournal.com/article/319064

And not making sure that Germany forever remained the "Germanies" like it has traditionally been: Bavaria, Hesse Kassel, Saxony, Prussia......... or at least East Germany & West Germany ideally with an Israel and a Gypsy homeland carved out in way to forever prevent reunion..........**

Italy is somewhere in between Greece & the Iberians...


*The purpose of NATO was to keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down..........

[Simple Minded]

more AGW is needed......

Summary

The Danube River, Central Europe's key waterway, has frozen in several places, bringing trade in the region to a halt. Unlike most of Europe, which has diversified away from water-based freight transport, Central European countries on the Danube still rely heavily on the river for trade. However, this freeze is temporary; in the long term, the most harm to trade along the Danube will come from continued political instability in Central Europe.

Analysis

Extremely low temperatures in the past few weeks in Europe have caused several of the continent's inland waterways to freeze, particularly the Danube River. Before the freeze, the region through which the Danube runs experienced a severe drought, dramatically reducing the river's flow and increasing the likelihood that it would freeze over in the cold.

Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania and Serbia have suspended shipping on the river, which is 90 percent impaired by the ice. The Bulgarian Agency for Exploration and Maintenance of the Danube River announced that the river is completely frozen near the Bulgarian city of Silistra, and authorities temporarily halted two Bulgarian-Romanian ferries. Hungarian officials reported Feb. 10 that the river was 60 to 70 percent frozen there and have closed it to traffic. Shipping also was stopped in certain sections of the river in Austria, making transnational shipping impossible.

While European countries have shifted away from inland waterways as their main shipping route, several countries still rely heavily on the Danube for trade -- particularly Bulgaria and Romania -- magnifying their transport difficulties caused by the freeze. However, this freeze is temporary. In the long term, the most harm to trade along the Danube will come from continued political instability in Eastern Europe.

Navigable rivers are a geopolitically significant feature of a given region. Transporting goods by water is much less expensive than by land, historically allowing residents to spend capital it would otherwise need for building transport networks on other investments that could increase its economic potential, such as education, energy or technology. Waterways enable industries to acquire intermediate products, expertise, raw materials and markets from farther away, increasing competition among the local suppliers. Europe has around 50,000 kilometers (31,000 miles) of navigable canals, rivers and lakes regularly used for transportation of goods. This network is mostly concentrated in the northwestern part of the continent, with one major exception -- the Danube.

The Danube flows for 2,872 kilometers through Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and Ukraine to the Black Sea. On its way, it flows through four capital cities -- Vienna, Bratislava, Budapest and Belgrade -- and its tributary rivers fostered the development of important trade centers such as Munich and Zagreb. The completion of the 171-kilometer-long Rhine-Main-Danube Canal in 1992 allowed for travel to the Danube from the North Sea port of Rotterdam via the Rhine.

In 2008, 79.1 million tons of goods transited the Danube. About 70 percent of these goods went between ports on the river, meaning the river is still mostly used for regional transport. Goods transported on the river consist largely of petroleum products, iron ore, processed construction materials, solid mineral fuel, grain, natural and artificial fertilizers and raw and processed minerals (which account for approximately 20 percent of Danube transport).

The freeze will have the heaviest effect on Bulgaria and Romania, both of which transport about 20 percent of their freight via inland waterways -- mostly the Danube. These countries cannot easily switch to other modes of transport such as road or rail due to the nature of the commodities transported via the river and a lack of capacity on those other routes.

Contrast this with the rest of Europe, which largely has shifted its goods trade to faster -- albeit more expensive -- routes. Only about 5 percent of Europe's total inland freight (excluding sea, pipeline and air) is transported via its waterway network, compared to 74 percent by road and 16 percent by rail. This diversification has given countries that are not dependent upon water-based trade more options when dealing with frozen rivers. Moreover, northwestern Europe's most important waterway, the Rhine River, currently is still navigable.

Apart from weather conditions, the main detriment to the Danube's importance in European trade is the historically unstable political climate of Central Europe. The multiplicity of ethnic and religious groups and various cultural and linguistic heritages in this region are constant fuel for conflict. For example, 78 million tons of goods were transported on the Danube in 1980, a figure that dropped to just 24 million tons in 1998 when the Kosovo War began. The bombing of bridges in Serbia by NATO during the war limited the use of the Danube. The resulting debris was not fully cleared until 2005, and the river is only now beginning to reach prewar trade levels.

The region will recover from the freeze, but it will be incumbent on the littoral states of the Danube to create a stable political environment and foster trade. Historically, the region has seen stability only when external powers impose it. The Danube can only maximize its potential if access beyond the Black Sea, through the Dardanelles, is guaranteed. This has not been the case since the 18th century under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. With the European Union undergoing a period of instability and Russia exploring the historical boundaries of its sphere of influence, stability in the region is not assured.



Comments? Send them to feedback@stratfor.com

[Parodite]

Self-sufficiency is not an option today, except in terms of value: a country is self-sufficient when its imports equal its exports, in value. So, we certainly do not want to compete with Germany in kind. But our exports must be sufficient to pay for the things we need and do not produce.

But the volume of import-export can be different. I can import one apple/year and export an orange/year, so import=~export. But not likely that is enough. What is enough?

As to the Germans being Nazi... I don't think they consciously adhere to the Nazi ideas, but how can a nation support Nazism, until military defeat forced them to change tack, without some inbuilt sympathy for those ideas? Fascism existed in other countries, but nowhere did it become an industrial death machine like it did in Germany. There must be something in the German psyche which allowed for such an aberration. Are German policies in Europe, Nazi? No. But the total disregard for other peoples (Greeks, for instance) and for the hardship their policies cause, is definitely proto-Nazi.

My analysis of what caused the predicament of Greece is very different from yours. It has zil to do with Germany or its culture, the nature of its people. It is caused by an international crisis in the financial industry created by the financial industry, using/abusing corrupt governments like the Greece's and preying on general consumer greed.

[AzariLoveIran]

.

My analysis of what caused the predicament of Greece is very different from yours. It has zil to do with Germany or its culture, the nature of its people. It is caused by an international crisis in the financial industry created by the financial industry, using/abusing corrupt governments like the Greece's and preying on general consumer greed.

.

There is only one reason for financial collapse of west

crooks stealing the wealth created by entrepreneurs and working class

Goldman Sachs and Lehman and and and are parasite that usurps the wealth generated by ingenious entrepreneurs and hard working labor

Steve Jobs hated Wall Street and the crooks .. Wall Street could not steal wealth generated by Apple

Now, Wall Street promoting one of the tribe, FaceBook, Mark (Zuckerberg) .. 100+ Billion Market cap for pure rubbish .. and .. suddenly .. Bingo .. you shafted to the tilt .. and .. Billions will disappear , nobody knowing what happened

Crooks are a 95% tax on world economy

.

[Simple Minded]

My analysis of what caused the predicament of Greece is very different from yours. It has zil to do with Germany or its culture, the nature of its people. It is caused by an international crisis in the financial industry created by the financial industry, using/abusing corrupt governments like the Greece's and preying on general consumer greed.

I tend to agree. There is corruption aplenty to go around, whether the bankers corrupted the politicians or the politicians extorted the bankers, seens like a chicken or egg situation to me. Absolving people of the consequences of taking risks never works out for long. Painful lessons are not soon forgotten. As my friend says "That's why stupid is supposed to hurt!"

Extorting the bankers to make loans they knew had a low probability of getting repaid did help the politicians get re-elected. Stupity in the name of compassion..... or just a concise method of fund raising? And if the politicians guaranteed there would be no financial loss for the bankers, it is a win-win for the players

Didn't help the borrowers for long....... who is suprised? Recall the old sayings of "You can't con an honest man!" or "No one is easier to con than a con man!" or "Never give a sucker an even break!"

Or better yet that great line from Animal House "Hey!! You fucked up!!!! You trusted us!!!!"
Politicians can't build a big enough tent by appealing to people's intelligence to win elections. They gotta promise something to the rubes. Buncha people are gonna be a lot smarter in 5 years than they were 5 years ago. They should realize they were stupid and consider it tuition.

[monster_gardener]

My analysis of what caused the predicament of Greece is very different from yours. It has zil to do with Germany or its culture, the nature of its people. It is caused by an international crisis in the financial industry created by the financial industry, using/abusing corrupt governments like the Greece's and preying on general consumer greed.

I tend to agree. There is corruption aplenty to go around, whether the bankers corrupted the politicians or the politicians extorted the bankers, seens like a chicken or egg situation to me. Absolving people of the consequences of taking risks never works out for long. Painful lessons are not soon forgotten. As my friend says "That's why stupid is supposed to hurt!"

Extorting the bankers to make loans they knew had a low probability of getting repaid did help the politicians get re-elected. Stupity in the name of compassion..... or just a concise method of fund raising? And if the politicians guaranteed there would be no financial loss for the bankers, it is a win-win for the players

Didn't help the borrowers for long....... who is suprised? Recall the old sayings of "You can't con an honest man!" or "No one is easier to con than a con man!" or "Never give a sucker an even break!"

Or better yet that great line from Animal House "Hey!! You fucked up!!!! You trusted us!!!!"
Politicians can't build a big enough tent by appealing to people's intelligence to win elections. They gotta promise something to the rubes. Buncha people are gonna be a lot smarter in 5 years than they were 5 years ago. They should realize they were stupid and consider it tuition.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Simple Minded.

You can't con an honest man!

I think you can fool an honest man or woman, once at least.................. Fool me once, shame on you......... Fool me twice, shame on me..........

Especially if I don't do due diligence............

[Endovelico]

Interview: Theodorakis’ call to arms
by George Gilson - 19 Feb 2012

When parliament debated the EU-IMF bailout memorandum on February 12, Mikis Theodorakis and Manolis Glezos, famed for their resistance during the German occupation and the Greek junta, were looking on in the chamber. The two octogenarians and former MPs had just suffered a police teargas attack in Syntagma Square. They are among the most prominent crusaders against the unprecedented austerity dictated by Greece’s creditors.

In a recent open letter to the international community, entitled “The Truth about Greece”, composer Mikis Theodorakis points to a nexus of military industrial interests - from Germany and France to the US - which profited from Greece’s excessive borrowing for decades.

In an exclusive interview with the Athens News, the leftwing icon lashes out at the Greek political system and calls for a popular uprising.

Athens News: Why do you consider passage of the new austerity programme treason?

Mikis Theodorakis: In 2009, Greece was at a level of, let’s say, 100. In two years, the troika, the IMF and our government drove us to ground zero, as Premier [Lucas] Papademos conceded. Does no one wonder why the country is heading towards chaos, even though we are told every so often that the Europeans have sent tens of billions of euros? Where does that money go? It goes straight back to our creditors, while burdening the state with new debt and interest payments. That’s how debt rose to 160 percent of GDP, and with the new 130 billion euro package it will jump to 180 percent. That is unprecedented, and it means we will be bound hand and foot on a stake of debt and interest for the next 150 years. With what right can parties who represent a minority (polls give Pasok six percent voter support and New Democracy 20 percent) decide Greece’s future for the next 100 years?

What were your thoughts as you heard the parliamentary debate on the bailout?

I am not interested in a parliament representing a minority of the nation - they total less than 50 percent of the electorate combined. From a constitutional standpoint, they are illegal because they are staging a coup, just like the members of the junta.

Would disorderly default be better for the middle and poorer classes than the bailout?

How can one speak of default in the future tense when we already have absolute bankruptcy - when 423,000 businesses have shut down and the unemployment rate is over 20 percent. Don’t you see the people scouring through garbage and sleeping on sidewalks? Those who led us consciously to bankruptcy - the troika and the government - now claim they want to save us from bankruptcy. It is incredible! With the new memorandum they are legitimising the first one (2010), which did not receive a three-fifths majority [needed to cede sovereignty]. Law professor Yiorgos Kasimatis has argued that even 300 MPs cannot negotiate our national integrity (akeraiotita). All acts implementing the memorandum are thus illegal. The troika, the government and all politicians who took such decisions are illegitimate. You can be sure that one day they will be tried and punished.

Can the left wing alone overturn the memorandum?

No, not just the left. But the entire people can - from the patriotic left to the patriotic right. The homeland. Hellas. United as one fist, one day we will oust unworthy governments, troikas and Merkel-Sarkozy.

Greece is rich. Our people are hard-working. What do we lack? We lack essential national independence. Since the end of the civil war, since 1950, all the major issues - diplomacy, defence, economy and politics - were decided by the Americans. What are the parties that have ruled Greece? They are the parties that have the US’ blessing and are sworn to keep the left wing in the corner. However, today the Patriotic Left is beginning to awaken. These are the forces that saved Greece from the Nazis, first fought the junta and finally delivered democracy. On that point, I am in a position to know the hidden truth.

As for the two parties [New Democracy and Pasok] that have ruled Greece, they led us to excessive borrowing, corruption, subjugation to the IMF in 2010, and, from there, to catastrophe. This is the view of the people, who punished Pasok and [former PM] George [Papandreou], who went from 44 percent in the 2009 elections to six percent in polls today. People are beginning to understand, to wake up and to protest.

Who is to blame for the crisis - the Greeks, the Germans with their austerity model or the all-powerful markets?

The only crisis is the crisis of international capitalism, which is up against the international mafia comprising the giants of finance capital - of virtual money. Finance capital has apparently bought off today’s European leadership, which does not realise that it is putting a noose around its own neck. Today, the European leadership threatens and acts like a predator. Tomorrow, they [all of Europe] will be the victims, just like us.

Where is the political system headed after the expulsion of dozens of MPs from Pasok and ND?

After Pasok’s six percent in the polls, ND will definitely suffer the same decline. There may be new parties, but they are the same people and with the same mindset; people who accept our national dependence and the presence of an essentially foreign government. The political system today is like a train running on rails put in place by foreigners, who are leading us where they want to go. What difference does it make if the train carriages are filled with new parties? What if the conductor-premier changes? The train can turn neither right, nor left. There is no steering wheel. The speed and brakes are determined by foreigners. Today, they are driving us to absolute chaos. The only solution is to cut the rails and replace them with our own, in the direction decided by the Greek people, if at some point they have the power to take their fate into their own hands.

Why haven’t you been able to unite the people in an anti-memorandum front? Is your new organisation Ellada designed to do that?

Manolis Glezos and I called on the people to flood Athens in protest, and they did. There were hundreds of thousands. In terror, the state power sprayed poisonous gases directly at us, to kill us. Glezos fainted and fell down. At first, I saw Charon (death) with my own eyes, as I could not breathe. I recovered and returned to my post, in front of the riot police guarding parliament. I took a loudspeaker and said: “Don’t be afraid. We won’t be storming. We will do that later, when we are ready.” That’s when they started throwing thousands of “bombs” of all kinds. The atmosphere became dark from smoke bombs and gas attacks. I was saved because I had a mask. Hence, you can be sure that Ellada is doing well, and it will accomplish the goal for which it was created.

Was the destruction of Athens planned? Is there a danger of a social explosion?

It was based on a plan to scare the people. If there were not the riot police unleashing gas and violence, a million people would have surrounded parliament. The people in hoods, hand in hand with riot police, fought us. Then you had the gangs, thieves and scum, who profit from looting and burning. You get a nightmarish situation, where truth - hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters - is hidden under a cloud of gas and smoke. That it contained anger, disgust, rage and decisiveness is what scares the powers that be, who try to push it aside in every way - mainly through destruction. Thus, the only party responsible for today’s hell is the political leadership. The government!

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/4194/53430#

[monster_gardener]

Interview: Theodorakis’ call to arms
by George Gilson - 19 Feb 2012

When parliament debated the EU-IMF bailout memorandum on February 12, Mikis Theodorakis and Manolis Glezos, famed for their resistance during the German occupation and the Greek junta, were looking on in the chamber. The two octogenarians and former MPs had just suffered a police teargas attack in Syntagma Square. They are among the most prominent crusaders against the unprecedented austerity dictated by Greece’s creditors.

In a recent open letter to the international community, entitled “The Truth about Greece”, composer Mikis Theodorakis points to a nexus of military industrial interests - from Germany and France to the US - which profited from Greece’s excessive borrowing for decades.

In an exclusive interview with the Athens News, the leftwing icon lashes out at the Greek political system and calls for a popular uprising.

Athens News: Why do you consider passage of the new austerity programme treason?

Mikis Theodorakis: In 2009, Greece was at a level of, let’s say, 100. In two years, the troika, the IMF and our government drove us to ground zero, as Premier [Lucas] Papademos conceded. Does no one wonder why the country is heading towards chaos, even though we are told every so often that the Europeans have sent tens of billions of euros? Where does that money go? It goes straight back to our creditors, while burdening the state with new debt and interest payments. That’s how debt rose to 160 percent of GDP, and with the new 130 billion euro package it will jump to 180 percent. That is unprecedented, and it means we will be bound hand and foot on a stake of debt and interest for the next 150 years. With what right can parties who represent a minority (polls give Pasok six percent voter support and New Democracy 20 percent) decide Greece’s future for the next 100 years?

What were your thoughts as you heard the parliamentary debate on the bailout?

I am not interested in a parliament representing a minority of the nation - they total less than 50 percent of the electorate combined. From a constitutional standpoint, they are illegal because they are staging a coup, just like the members of the junta.

Would disorderly default be better for the middle and poorer classes than the bailout?

How can one speak of default in the future tense when we already have absolute bankruptcy - when 423,000 businesses have shut down and the unemployment rate is over 20 percent. Don’t you see the people scouring through garbage and sleeping on sidewalks? Those who led us consciously to bankruptcy - the troika and the government - now claim they want to save us from bankruptcy. It is incredible! With the new memorandum they are legitimising the first one (2010), which did not receive a three-fifths majority [needed to cede sovereignty]. Law professor Yiorgos Kasimatis has argued that even 300 MPs cannot negotiate our national integrity (akeraiotita). All acts implementing the memorandum are thus illegal. The troika, the government and all politicians who took such decisions are illegitimate. You can be sure that one day they will be tried and punished.

Can the left wing alone overturn the memorandum?

No, not just the left. But the entire people can - from the patriotic left to the patriotic right. The homeland. Hellas. United as one fist, one day we will oust unworthy governments, troikas and Merkel-Sarkozy.

Greece is rich. Our people are hard-working. What do we lack? We lack essential national independence. Since the end of the civil war, since 1950, all the major issues - diplomacy, defence, economy and politics - were decided by the Americans. What are the parties that have ruled Greece? They are the parties that have the US’ blessing and are sworn to keep the left wing in the corner. However, today the Patriotic Left is beginning to awaken. These are the forces that saved Greece from the Nazis, first fought the junta and finally delivered democracy. On that point, I am in a position to know the hidden truth.

As for the two parties [New Democracy and Pasok] that have ruled Greece, they led us to excessive borrowing, corruption, subjugation to the IMF in 2010, and, from there, to catastrophe. This is the view of the people, who punished Pasok and [former PM] George [Papandreou], who went from 44 percent in the 2009 elections to six percent in polls today. People are beginning to understand, to wake up and to protest.

Who is to blame for the crisis - the Greeks, the Germans with their austerity model or the all-powerful markets?

The only crisis is the crisis of international capitalism, which is up against the international mafia comprising the giants of finance capital - of virtual money. Finance capital has apparently bought off today’s European leadership, which does not realise that it is putting a noose around its own neck. Today, the European leadership threatens and acts like a predator. Tomorrow, they [all of Europe] will be the victims, just like us.

Where is the political system headed after the expulsion of dozens of MPs from Pasok and ND?

After Pasok’s six percent in the polls, ND will definitely suffer the same decline. There may be new parties, but they are the same people and with the same mindset; people who accept our national dependence and the presence of an essentially foreign government. The political system today is like a train running on rails put in place by foreigners, who are leading us where they want to go. What difference does it make if the train carriages are filled with new parties? What if the conductor-premier changes? The train can turn neither right, nor left. There is no steering wheel. The speed and brakes are determined by foreigners. Today, they are driving us to absolute chaos. The only solution is to cut the rails and replace them with our own, in the direction decided by the Greek people, if at some point they have the power to take their fate into their own hands.

Why haven’t you been able to unite the people in an anti-memorandum front? Is your new organisation Ellada designed to do that?

Manolis Glezos and I called on the people to flood Athens in protest, and they did. There were hundreds of thousands. In terror, the state power sprayed poisonous gases directly at us, to kill us. Glezos fainted and fell down. At first, I saw Charon (death) with my own eyes, as I could not breathe. I recovered and returned to my post, in front of the riot police guarding parliament. I took a loudspeaker and said: “Don’t be afraid. We won’t be storming. We will do that later, when we are ready.” That’s when they started throwing thousands of “bombs” of all kinds. The atmosphere became dark from smoke bombs and gas attacks. I was saved because I had a mask. Hence, you can be sure that Ellada is doing well, and it will accomplish the goal for which it was created.

Was the destruction of Athens planned? Is there a danger of a social explosion?

It was based on a plan to scare the people. If there were not the riot police unleashing gas and violence, a million people would have surrounded parliament. The people in hoods, hand in hand with riot police, fought us. Then you had the gangs, thieves and scum, who profit from looting and burning. You get a nightmarish situation, where truth - hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters - is hidden under a cloud of gas and smoke. That it contained anger, disgust, rage and decisiveness is what scares the powers that be, who try to push it aside in every way - mainly through destruction. Thus, the only party responsible for today’s hell is the political leadership. The government!

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/4194/53430#

Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.

the state power sprayed poisonous gases directly at us, to kill us. Glezos fainted and fell down. At first, I saw Charon (death) with my own eyes, as I could not breathe. I recovered and returned to my post, in front of the riot police guarding parliament. I took a loudspeaker and said: “Don’t be afraid. We won’t be storming. We will do that later, when we are ready.” That’s when they started throwing thousands of “bombs” of all kinds. The atmosphere became dark from smoke bombs and gas attacks.

I was saved because I had a mask.

Sounds like it's getting serious........

Recalling the demonstration safety preparation post I posted for you at Diagetics.......

If this chaos comes to Portugal........ Or you go it in support.............

Be safe.......

If you want, I can see about reposting it............

Your friend.........

Monster_Gardener..........

[monster_gardener]

Posted this for Endovelico a while back........ http://diegetics.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 900#p50732

Although I do not doubt that many of you know much more about this than I do, here is a link about safety at protests........

Endo pointed out this may be overdoing it but some of this may be useful.......

Especially what NOT to wear when being pepper sprayed: contact lens,.................

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/DeathProduc ... ninfo.html



Information For Protestors

Intro As a protester, one should always be aware of the dangers, both medical and otherwise, present at any demonstration. This page deals mostly with preparing for medical emergencies at a protest, and medical safety. The links page, however has many links to help protesters deal with non-medical dangers.

Summary

The following table contains quick links to all of the dangers a protester should be aware of before going to a protest. Each subject contains general information, preventative measures, signs and symptoms, and links to the treatment page. The general section just below the table gives information about general safety issues a protestor should bear in mind during a protest.

* Hypothermia: (Note: can happen at surprisingly high temperatures- MG)
Frostbite
Trenchfoot
* Pepper Spray
* Tear Gas

* General Safety
* How to Dress
* What to Bring
* Standard Small First Aid Kit

MSM Home
Calendar of Events
Get Involved!
Information For
Protestors
Information For
Medics
Support MSM
Related Links
Français
Contact Info
(514) 848 - 7585
quebecmedical@
hotmail.com

General Safety

USE YOUR HEAD

PLAN AHEAD: For essential needs, care & supplies. Know what to expect. Know how to get assistance. How to re-contact your buddies if separated.
ATTITUDE: You are powerful. You can easily withstand most of what the police throw at you, and you are a warrior for justice. Remember, pain is only temporary, and we are extremely strong.
THE #1 WEAPON OF THE POLICE IS FEAR. Once you control that, tear gas, pepper spray, plastic bullets and other police tactics are easily manageable.
COMMON SENSE: Keep your wits, assess what is going down and what needs to be done.
BE CALM & FOCUSED when things get most intense. React to danger or warning signs sooner - not later. Watch for signs of physical and mental problems in yourself and others. Cool down others who exhibit panic behavior.
BEWARE OF RUMORS: They are usually false, and foster fear & disruption. Deal with the known truth.
DOCUMENT police actions, brutality & injuries.
ANGER Intense anger is quite common with pepper spray, and can be useful if you are prepared and able to focus it. Maybe you can use your anger to motivate you to recover faster and get back in the action again. Maybe it will provide you with energy to get out to a safe space.

SAFE SPACE
Always know where a safe space is to treat yourselves, others and to get away from immediate dangers. Ask other to help create a safe zone around a treatment area. Prevent undercover photographers from filming the injured. A safe space is what you make of it & they can change. It can be a doorway, park, alley, or on the front lines in the arms of your comrades.

[TOP]

How To Dress

As a protester a number of simple steps can help greatly in combatting the effeciency of a chemical weapon's ability to harm you. The following are a list of general guidelines, followed by a complete list of clothing items to bring.
Cover up as much as possible to protect skin from tear gas or pepper spray exposure.
Wear clinched wrist and ankle clothing.
Avoid cotton and wool as outside layers, which are fuzzy and absorb chemicals.
Wash clothes in a non-detergent soap several times. This is because detergents enhance the effects of the chemicals on one's skin. Castille (or vegetable) soap works best and can be found at any pharmacy.
Wash yourself with castille soap before the protest.
Wear rain gear as an outer layer. This ensures maximum protection against chemicals contacting your skin. There is a trade-off here between comfort and protection.

Do Not Wear:
Piercings, jewellery, ties, or anything else that can be grabbed by the police. Some piercings may be taped over.
Contact Lenses as chemicals can get trapped between them & eyes. May cause damage.

The following is a list of clothing a protester should bring to a demo

* Rain Pants
* Rain Coat, Pants and Hat
* Gloves
* Comfortable & dry shoes, running shoes or Steel Toed Boots
* Helmets
* Padded Pants, or Goalie Pads for sit-downs.


* Castille Soap
* Sealed Goggles, Safety Glasses (swim or ski, shatter-proof if chance of plastic bullets)
* Gas Mask, Face Filter, Respirator or Bandana soaked in apple cider venegar
* Spare Clothes in sealed bag

[TOP]

What to Bring

As a protester, there are a few things one can bring to an action to ensure safety and preparation. A more complete list of medical supplies is available on the First Aid Reference page. The following is a list of general items a protester should have on their person.

* Important Telephone Numbers (careful if arrested)
* Energy Bars
* Drinking Water (2 L a day)
* Money for phones, food, taxi, etc.
* Pad and Paper
* Map
* Spare Clothes in sealed bag



* Optional Items
* Two-Way Radio (Note: Cell phone service might be shut off suddenly. Not only by the police. - MG)
* Compass
* Cell Phone
* Flashlight
* Blanket/Sleeping bag
* Fanny Pack
* Knife or Scissors (careful--cops may consider these weapons)
* First Aid Kit

[TOP]

Medics Standard First Aid Kit

The portable first aid kit could mean the difference between a minor injury and a desperate situation spiraling out of control.Those items with a star are not necessary for a good first aid kit. Only bring Items you can safely and effectively use.
Items marked with a star (*) are optional.

* Emergency Telephone Numbers list*
* Sterile guze pads
* Adhesive tape
* Triangular bandages
* Adhesive bandages*
* Scissors



* Tweezers*
* Safety pins
* Ice pack
* Latex gloves
* Flashlight*
* Antiseptic



* Pencil and Pad*
* Emergency Blanket
* Syrup or ipecac*
* Eye Patches*
* Thermometer*
* First Aid Manual

[Endovelico]

Kilkis, Northern Greece: Occupation and self-management of the city’s general hospital by the workers

According to a statement (4-2/2012) released by the workers’ general assembly in the General Hospital of Kilkis, the doctors, nurses and other staff declare that the long-lasting problems of the National Health System (ESY) in the country cannot be solved through limited claims of the health services sector. Thus, workers at the General Hospital respond to the regime’s acceleration of fascism by occupying this public general hospital and putting it under their direct and complete control. The decision-making body for administrative matters will be the workers’ general assembly.

They also stress that the Greek government is not acquitted of its financial obligations towards the hospital. The workers will denounce all competent authorities to the public opinion and, if their demands are not met, turn to the municipalities, the local and the wider community, for support in every possible way of their efforts: to save the hospital and defend the free public health care, to overthrow the government and every neo-liberal policy.

On February 6th the workers will serve only hospital emergencies until full payment of their wages and recovery of their income in the pre-Troika level. However, being fully aware of their social mission and moral commitments associated with their professions, they will protect people’s health that come in to the hospital, providing free care to those in need.

Next general meeting of all employees will be held in the morning of February 13th. Their assembly will take place daily and will be the main body for any decision concerning the workers and the hospitals’ operation.

The workers call for factual solidarity from people and workers in all sectors, for the involvement of trade unions and progressive organizations, and for support by media of real information. They will also give a related press conference on February 15th, at 12.30. Among others, they invite their colleagues at other hospitals to take appropriate decisions, as well as employees of the public and private sector to act likewise.

http://en.contrainfo.espiv.net/2012/02/ ... e-workers/

[Endovelico]

Will anyone be left standing at the end of Greece's marathon?
By Nick Malkoutzis

Of all the European leaders, Economic Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn is perhaps the last you would expect to have a finger on society’s pulse. Yet it was the Finnish technocrat who produced what could be the most apt analogy at the end of an epic Eurogroup session that ended yesterday morning with eurozone finance ministers agreeing a new bailout for Greece.

“In the past two years and again this night, I’ve learned that ‘marathon’ is indeed a Greek word,” Rehn told reporters. There seemed to be an exquisite timing to the marathon reference, even though most journalists were too bleary-eyed at that point to appreciate it. Marathon can refer to one of two things: one of the most decisive battles in history, in which the ancient Greeks repelled the threat of the Pomegranates and a disastrous future, or the long-distance race which marks the lung-busting effort of messenger Pheidippides to inform the Athenians of victory over the invading army.

Both cases are fitting analogies for the impossible situation Greece finds itself in. On the macro level, the country is attempting to avoid a potentially destructive disorderly default while external -- as well as some domestic -- forces do their worst. On the micro level, most Greeks will now feel weary from navigating demanding terrain over the last couple of years, while the finishing line keeps drifting off into the distance rather than getting closer.

Where these two allegories might cross paths in the case of modern Greece in the wake of the Eurogroup’s bailout decision is that the country might escape the clutches of disaster but its people, like the ancient messenger, might collapse from exhaustion.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos labeled yesterday’s agreement for 130 billion euros in loans and a debt reduction of some 100 billion euros via haircuts for private bondholders as the most significant in Greece’s postwar history. It may well be, but it does not guarantee economic peace and prosperity in our time.

In fact, the supposed default-busting package raises as many questions as it answers. First of all, there is the issue of the illusion that Greece’s debt has actually been reduced. While private investors have been invited to accept a 53.5 percent haircut on the Greek bonds they hold, this will have little impact on Greece’s overall debt load because it will be borrowing another 130 billion euros from the eurozone and the IMF. Recent research by Nicola Mai at JP Morgan, which was cited by the Financial Times’ Gavyn Davies, indicated that Greece’s debt would be 163 percent of GDP before the restructuring and 154 percent afterward. The only difference is that Greece will owe more to the public sector than the private sector. The private sector accounts for 79 percent of GDP at the moment. This will fall to 43 percent after restructuring, according to Mai. Public sector debt, however, will rise from 84 percent of GDP to 111 percent.

Also, a recent JP Morgan paper suggested that the haircut would make only a small difference to Greece in terms of debt repayments. Last year, Greece paid 15.5 billion euros, or 17 percent of total general revenues, in net interest payments -- more than three times higher than the OECD average. JP Morgan estimated that a 50 percent haircut with a 2.75 percent coupon would reduce the annual interest paid by Greece by less than 4 billion euros to 13 percent of revenues.

With the haircuts out of the way and investors being given new bonds written under English law, Greece has no wiggle room left as far as private debt is concerned. On public debt, it is left with two basic options: Its taxpayers have to service the debt or the country has to default and leave other eurozone taxpayers, rather than banks, to foot the bill.

This is where the agreement for the creation of an escrow account and for Greece to adopt a law obliging it to use public revenues for debt repayment before any domestic spending is relevant. Apart from being a point that some eurozone governments can sell to domestic audiences, this policy of debt servicing first has a potentially significant practical consequence. Greece is projected to run a primary budget deficit of 1.5 percent of GDP this year, which means that even without paying the interest on its loans, the government would be about 3 billion euros short by the end of the year. Add to this the fact that in January alone tax revenues were 1 billion euros beneath the target and it’s easy to see how a substantial shortfall could build up by the end of the year. If the eurozone is not willing to bridge this spending gap, which is set to continue next year as Greece is not expected to be in surplus until late 2013, and instead insists that money be put into the account to cover debt servicing for the months ahead, Greece will head for an internal default. The state will not be in a position to pay at least some pensions and salaries or to return taxes to businesses.

The social impact of such a move would be tremendous and is likely to put the whole program in jeopardy. But this may happen anyway given that the issue of debt has been addressed, however questionably, but the underlying problem of Greece’s economy has not.

Just like the first EU-IMF memorandum, this program comes in two parts. One is the austerity measures needed to rein in Greece’s deficit and the other is the structural reforms that are designed to unleash forces of growth in the free-falling Greek economy. A supreme irony has underpinned this process over the last couple of years: There has been substantial public support for the reforms but few have been carried out, while the austerity has been widely unpopular but the government and its lenders have never shied away from applying it.

More of the same will lead Greece into a dead end economically, politically and socially. Critics may argue that the Greek government, sometimes bowing to small special interest groups, has been less than enthusiastic in conducting the reforms it has promised but nobody can doubt the sacrifices that have been made by the Greek people. The most drastic reduction in a primary budget deficit that Europe has seen for over 30 years was achieved thanks to Greeks accepting poorer public services and giving up more of their salaries. Real disposable income in Greece has fallen by 23 percent since the crisis began. Many have paid the cost of this rapid fiscal adjustment by losing their jobs. Unemployment has doubled in a year to pass 20 percent and tens of thousands of businesses have closed.

With GDP shrinking by 7 percent last year, it means that the Greek economy has contracted by 16 percent since the crisis began and is on target to surpass the biggest recessions the world has seen in developed countries. In this environment, further austerity without reform and the hope of growth cannot carry the public’s consent for long.

The Greek government, meanwhile, has burned its bridges with the troika by failing to adhere to reform pledges. Greece’s lenders are now focused simply on the numbers because they can be trusted. This points to Greece being set up for a huge fall in the near future. In the coming months, troika inspectors will examine Greece’s fiscal data and reform progress. They are likely to find that Athens will be off target on both. The recession, which will only be compounded by the wage and pension cuts agreed to this month, will foul up the fiscal statistics, while the deep-rooted malaise in the public administration will have prevented any head of steam being built up as far as reforms go.

Then, the choice will be more “corrective” measures, or even an internal default, which carries numerous damaging complications or an outright default. At which point we will recall the last line of Robert Browning’s poem about Pheidippides: “So to end gloriously -- once to shout, thereafter be mute: ‘Athens is saved!’ -- Pheidippides dies in the shout for his meed.” [Kathimerini English Edition]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 012_429202

It's absolutely monstrous to force Greeks to give up essential services to pay debt to foreign banks. I don't know about common law, but in Portugal debtors are entitled to protect their ability to pay essential things. Courts will limit the amount of their income which can be used to forcibly pay debts. It is usually one sixth of disposable income, and may be further reduced if income is very low. This is apparently being denied the Greek people. I do sincerely hope Greeks will revolt and overthrow their government.

[monster_gardener]

Will anyone be left standing at the end of Greece's marathon?
By Nick Malkoutzis

Of all the European leaders, Economic Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn is perhaps the last you would expect to have a finger on society’s pulse. Yet it was the Finnish technocrat who produced what could be the most apt analogy at the end of an epic Eurogroup session that ended yesterday morning with eurozone finance ministers agreeing a new bailout for Greece.

“In the past two years and again this night, I’ve learned that ‘marathon’ is indeed a Greek word,” Rehn told reporters. There seemed to be an exquisite timing to the marathon reference, even though most journalists were too bleary-eyed at that point to appreciate it. Marathon can refer to one of two things: one of the most decisive battles in history, in which the ancient Greeks repelled the threat of the Pomegranates and a disastrous future, or the long-distance race which marks the lung-busting effort of messenger Pheidippides to inform the Athenians of victory over the invading army.

Both cases are fitting analogies for the impossible situation Greece finds itself in. On the macro level, the country is attempting to avoid a potentially destructive disorderly default while external -- as well as some domestic -- forces do their worst. On the micro level, most Greeks will now feel weary from navigating demanding terrain over the last couple of years, while the finishing line keeps drifting off into the distance rather than getting closer.

Where these two allegories might cross paths in the case of modern Greece in the wake of the Eurogroup’s bailout decision is that the country might escape the clutches of disaster but its people, like the ancient messenger, might collapse from exhaustion.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos labeled yesterday’s agreement for 130 billion euros in loans and a debt reduction of some 100 billion euros via haircuts for private bondholders as the most significant in Greece’s postwar history. It may well be, but it does not guarantee economic peace and prosperity in our time.

In fact, the supposed default-busting package raises as many questions as it answers. First of all, there is the issue of the illusion that Greece’s debt has actually been reduced. While private investors have been invited to accept a 53.5 percent haircut on the Greek bonds they hold, this will have little impact on Greece’s overall debt load because it will be borrowing another 130 billion euros from the eurozone and the IMF. Recent research by Nicola Mai at JP Morgan, which was cited by the Financial Times’ Gavyn Davies, indicated that Greece’s debt would be 163 percent of GDP before the restructuring and 154 percent afterward. The only difference is that Greece will owe more to the public sector than the private sector. The private sector accounts for 79 percent of GDP at the moment. This will fall to 43 percent after restructuring, according to Mai. Public sector debt, however, will rise from 84 percent of GDP to 111 percent.

Also, a recent JP Morgan paper suggested that the haircut would make only a small difference to Greece in terms of debt repayments. Last year, Greece paid 15.5 billion euros, or 17 percent of total general revenues, in net interest payments -- more than three times higher than the OECD average. JP Morgan estimated that a 50 percent haircut with a 2.75 percent coupon would reduce the annual interest paid by Greece by less than 4 billion euros to 13 percent of revenues.

With the haircuts out of the way and investors being given new bonds written under English law, Greece has no wiggle room left as far as private debt is concerned. On public debt, it is left with two basic options: Its taxpayers have to service the debt or the country has to default and leave other eurozone taxpayers, rather than banks, to foot the bill.

This is where the agreement for the creation of an escrow account and for Greece to adopt a law obliging it to use public revenues for debt repayment before any domestic spending is relevant. Apart from being a point that some eurozone governments can sell to domestic audiences, this policy of debt servicing first has a potentially significant practical consequence. Greece is projected to run a primary budget deficit of 1.5 percent of GDP this year, which means that even without paying the interest on its loans, the government would be about 3 billion euros short by the end of the year. Add to this the fact that in January alone tax revenues were 1 billion euros beneath the target and it’s easy to see how a substantial shortfall could build up by the end of the year. If the eurozone is not willing to bridge this spending gap, which is set to continue next year as Greece is not expected to be in surplus until late 2013, and instead insists that money be put into the account to cover debt servicing for the months ahead, Greece will head for an internal default. The state will not be in a position to pay at least some pensions and salaries or to return taxes to businesses.

The social impact of such a move would be tremendous and is likely to put the whole program in jeopardy. But this may happen anyway given that the issue of debt has been addressed, however questionably, but the underlying problem of Greece’s economy has not.

Just like the first EU-IMF memorandum, this program comes in two parts. One is the austerity measures needed to rein in Greece’s deficit and the other is the structural reforms that are designed to unleash forces of growth in the free-falling Greek economy. A supreme irony has underpinned this process over the last couple of years: There has been substantial public support for the reforms but few have been carried out, while the austerity has been widely unpopular but the government and its lenders have never shied away from applying it.

More of the same will lead Greece into a dead end economically, politically and socially. Critics may argue that the Greek government, sometimes bowing to small special interest groups, has been less than enthusiastic in conducting the reforms it has promised but nobody can doubt the sacrifices that have been made by the Greek people. The most drastic reduction in a primary budget deficit that Europe has seen for over 30 years was achieved thanks to Greeks accepting poorer public services and giving up more of their salaries. Real disposable income in Greece has fallen by 23 percent since the crisis began. Many have paid the cost of this rapid fiscal adjustment by losing their jobs. Unemployment has doubled in a year to pass 20 percent and tens of thousands of businesses have closed.

With GDP shrinking by 7 percent last year, it means that the Greek economy has contracted by 16 percent since the crisis began and is on target to surpass the biggest recessions the world has seen in developed countries. In this environment, further austerity without reform and the hope of growth cannot carry the public’s consent for long.

The Greek government, meanwhile, has burned its bridges with the troika by failing to adhere to reform pledges. Greece’s lenders are now focused simply on the numbers because they can be trusted. This points to Greece being set up for a huge fall in the near future. In the coming months, troika inspectors will examine Greece’s fiscal data and reform progress. They are likely to find that Athens will be off target on both. The recession, which will only be compounded by the wage and pension cuts agreed to this month, will foul up the fiscal statistics, while the deep-rooted malaise in the public administration will have prevented any head of steam being built up as far as reforms go.

Then, the choice will be more “corrective” measures, or even an internal default, which carries numerous damaging complications or an outright default. At which point we will recall the last line of Robert Browning’s poem about Pheidippides: “So to end gloriously -- once to shout, thereafter be mute: ‘Athens is saved!’ -- Pheidippides dies in the shout for his meed.” [Kathimerini English Edition]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 012_429202

It's absolutely monstrous to force Greeks to give up essential services to pay debt to foreign banks. I don't know about common law, but in Portugal debtors are entitled to protect their ability to pay essential things. Courts will limit the amount of their income which can be used to forcibly pay debts. It is usually one sixth of disposable income, and may be further reduced if income is very low. This is apparently being denied the Greek people. I do sincerely hope Greeks will revolt and overthrow their government.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.

In spite of their problems, corruption etc., my sympathy is with the Greeks.

Since they gave up war reparations to help Germany rebuild after it/the Nazis ruined Europe, the Greeks should get roughly the same deal the West Germans got post war.

Failing that, NO debt repayments till the Greeks get the war reparations with accumulated interest as an non-discounted Lump Sum payment

But really, AIUI the Germans despise the Greeks and want them out of the EU to teach a lesson to the other PIIGS that Germany/German Banks and friends now rule the roost.........

May be best for the Greeks to just default................. Or try that Club Med EU idea

Just be careful not to exchange one master, Germany, for another, China...................

Or if the Greeks are going to sell themselves to a new master, I hope they get a good deal...........

BTW, what you said about Portugal's debt repayment system is interesting...........

Please tell more...............

I'm a little more familiar with Spain, which AIUI is DRACONIAN about debt repayment..........

If you go bankrupt for any reason including that the economy crashed because of manipulation/speculation by International Banksters (US/uz, German etc. of nationalities up to and including Indian), you, the small debtor are still responsible for the debt after the house, buisness, truck etc. has been confiscated and sold while the US & German Banksters get bailed out by Uz taxpayers......... Only way to escape is to die or emigrate which BTW is what Greeks are doing.........

[AzariLoveIran]

.

In spite of their problems, corruption etc., my sympathy is with the Greeks.

Since they gave up war reparations to help Germany rebuild after it/the Nazis ruined Europe, the Greeks should get roughly the same deal the West Germans got post war.

Failing that, NO debt repayments till the Greeks get the war reparations with accumulated interest as an non-discounted Lump Sum payment

.

Look, MG

you seem a fair minded guy (and reasonable)

yes,

I hear you

and agree with you

in WW2, 2 European beast, Churchill and Adolf, were fighting each other for world natural resources

in that process, many neutral and weak nations were fucked, ruined

Brits, Russians and Americans used Iran as a bridge for war material to Russia .. without Iranian corridor, Hitler would have won WW2 as Russia (with American war and consumer material) broke Hitler's neck, Russia beat Hitler and not Brits (or America)

Iran was sucked try by Brits, Iranian Oil making Britain rich and Iran poor .. despite that, Reza Shah built Iranian railway system with a tax on poor people, tax on tea and sugar, poor people's main consumption

and

Brits, Americans, Russians ruined all railways, all roads and all infrastructure

no compensation was paid to Iran

All money for compensation, probably 10 fold, went and still going to Zionist .. they milking and milking and milking

Yes, agree, monster_gardener , Germans (and others,Turks for Ottoman, Brits and Russians) should pay reparation to Greece and Iran (and others)

Iran has prepared a file, officially announced will ask for reparation, world court and UN

Haaretz .... Team assigned to calculate all damages inflicted on Iran in WWII, Ahmadinejad says .... RFO

and

yes,

MG

don't forget that

" .. war reparations with accumulated interest as an non-discounted Lump Sum payment "


Iran bringing this to UN court .. if successful, Iran will demand from UN to freeze Brits, American assets worldwide


.

[AzariLoveIran]

LOLOL.jpg (106.84 KiB) Viewed 9512 times

[monster_gardener]

.

In spite of their problems, corruption etc., my sympathy is with the Greeks.

Since they gave up war reparations to help Germany rebuild after it/the Nazis ruined Europe, the Greeks should get roughly the same deal the West Germans got post war.

Failing that, NO debt repayments till the Greeks get the war reparations with accumulated interest as an non-discounted Lump Sum payment

.

Look, MG

you seem a fair minded guy (and reasonable)

yes,

I hear you

and agree with you

in WW2, 2 European beast, Churchill and Adolf, were fighting each other for world natural resources

in that process, many neutral and weak nations were fucked, ruined

Brits, Russians and Americans used Iran as a bridge for war material to Russia .. without Iranian corridor, Hitler would have won WW2 as Russia (with American war and consumer material) broke Hitler's neck, Russia beat Hitler and not Brits (or America)

Iran was sucked try by Brits, Iranian Oil making Britain rich and Iran poor .. despite that, Reza Shah built Iranian railway system with a tax on poor people, tax on tea and sugar, poor people's main consumption

and

Brits, Americans, Russians ruined all railways, all roads and all infrastructure

no compensation was paid to Iran

All money for compensation, probably 10 fold, went and still going to Zionist .. they milking and milking and milking

Yes, agree, monster_gardener , Germans (and others,Turks for Ottoman, Brits and Russians) should pay reparation to Greece and Iran (and others)

Iran has prepared a file, officially announced will ask for reparation, world court and UN

Haaretz .... Team assigned to calculate all damages inflicted on Iran in WWII, Ahmadinejad says .... RFO

and

yes,

MG

don't forget that

" .. war reparations with accumulated interest as an non-discounted Lump Sum payment "


Iran bringing this to UN court .. if successful, Iran will demand from UN to freeze Brits, American assets worldwide


.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

you seem a fair minded guy (and reasonable)

Thank you for your kind words.

I try but sometimes perhaps often fail .............

Sometimes I fail to try,

Sometimes when I try, I am not sure that I am: Syria is a good example.........

I find listening to your viewpoint helps....................

" .. war reparations with accumulated interest as an non-discounted Lump Sum payment "


Iran bringing this to UN court .. if successful, Iran will demand from UN to freeze Brits, American assets worldwide

Fair enough, Azari..........

If I ever have the misfortune to become Present Dunce /President of the US/Uz, I will try to remember to consider Iranian/Persian claims from WW2.

Given the way the true economy is going, can't promise much more than another apology ........

Hopefully Bam & similar will be considered toward the US/Uz account........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bam_earthq ... _relations

Can't do much about the British Lions or RustySkis ...............

Good Luck suing in the UN, especially with the Bears, they haven't missed a Security Klowncil Meeting since the Korean War...........

You might have better luck in the General ASSembly


But really what the German vs. Greek story reminds me of is "The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant"

Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who wanted to reconcile accounts with his servants. When he had begun to reconcile, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents (~ 10,000 * the value of nine man-years of skilled work) But because he couldn't pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down and knelt before him, saying, 'Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!' The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

"But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, who owed him one hundred denarii (100 man days of work) , and he grabbed him, and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!'

"So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will repay you!' He would not, but went and cast him into prison, until he should pay back that which was due. So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were exceedingly sorry, and came and told to their lord all that was done. Then his lord called him in, and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me. Shouldn't you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?' His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don't each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of ... ng_servant

Given what Germany was effectively forgiven for doing during WW2, IMVHO it should offer the the Greeks at least the same deal it got financially.........

This has had application to me/US/Uz over my term on these boards............. Grew up being told that only Finland had repaid war debts to US/Uz...........

Thanks to YMIX, I have had to consider that maybe we/US/Uz have been repaid &/or run up our own debts with QE2 which Krugman says isn't really enough to keep the US/UZ economy AIUI the World economy going

Have had to give it up............

.. war reparations with accumulated interest as an non-discounted Lump Sum payment "

Is a hyperbolic tool that IMVHO Greeks might as well bluff/threaten to use with the Germans

Not likely to happen........ Except in default mode which AIUI the Germans may actually want.........

Germans say "Greece is in default"

Greeks say "We are deducting the war reparations"


Again, what should happen is that the Greeks get the same financial deal the West Germans got...........

And the Greeks should try to work the way the West Germans worked............

Might even have to import guest workers

But would suggest some group other than Turks used by Germany ...........

Not much productive work gets done people are busy killing each other.........

As history shows, Greeks and Turks seem to like to do...........

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Look guys ,

Greece External debt is $ 583.3 billion (30 June 2011)

A haircut of around 60% seems agreed, 60% x $ 583.3 B = $ 350 B

When dust settles, haircut will be Angela's

but

this will not solve Greece problem

Above is what happened in the past

issue now, how Greece will earn a (decent) living in the future

.

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Southern European Money Migrating North to Safety

.
More and more people in southern euro-zone countries are moving their money north amid fears of losing their savings in the crisis.
.

.

[Endovelico]

Letter from Leta Zotaki, president of ENIK Kilkis Hospital, Greece
Written by Leta Zotaki - Wednesday, 29 February 2012

Hello all. Thank you so much for your interest and support. The occupation of our hospital in Kilkis by its workers started on Monday, February 20th, 8:30 local time.

This occupation is not only about us, the physicians and the workers at the Kilkis Hospital. Neither is it only about the Greek National Health System, which is indeed collapsing. We are in this fight because what is in real danger now is human rights and our lives. And this threat is not against just a nation, or against a few countries, or a few social groups, but against the low and middle classes in Europe, America, Asia, Africa, in the whole world.

Today’s Greece, is tomorrow’s picture of Portugal, Spain, Italy and the rest of the countries worldwide.

The workers at the Kilkis Hospital and at most of the hospitals and health centres in Greece are not paid on time and some of them see their salaries being cut down to practically zero. A fellow worker of mine was transferred to our cardiological clinic almost in shock, when he realized that instead of receiving the usual check of 800 euros (yes, that is his monthly salary) from the state, he received a note saying that not only would he be paid nothing for this month, but he also has the obligation to return 170 euros! Other workers were paid only 9 (nine) or 4 euros and even less for this month! Those of us who still receive some kind of a salary will support them in any way we can.

This is a war against the people, against the whole community. Those who say that the public debt of Greece is the debt of the Greek people are lying. It is not the people’s debt. It was created by the governments in collaboration with the bankers in order to enslave people.

The loans to Greece are not used for salaries, pensions and public care. It is exactly the opposite: salaries, pensions and care are used to pay the bankers. They are lying. Contrary to what they declare, they do not want a debt-free society.

They create the debts themselves (with the help of corrupt governments and politicians) for their own benefit. They gave Greece a banker as prime minister to ensure that the “job” will be done properly. Our Prime Minister Loukas Papadimos was not elected at all. He was appointed by the ECB and the bankers with the help of European and Greek corrupt politicians. This is their interpretation of the term “democracy”!

The debts are created by bankers who create money out of thin air and collect interest, just because our governments gave them the right to do so. And they keep saying that for those debts it is you and me and our children and grandchildren that will have to pay with our personal and national assets, with our lives. We do not owe them anything. On the contrary, they owe the people a great part of the fortunes they made thanks to political corruption.

If we do not open our eyes to this truth, we will soon all become slaves, working for 200 or less a month. That is those of us who will be able to find a job!

No medical care, no pensions, homeless and starving, as now is the case with my fellow citizens in Greece. Thousands of them live outdoors and starve.

We have no intention to paint the reality with dark colours, but this is the truth. This situation is not due to a financial or monetary accident or mistake. It is the start of the ugly phase of a long process following a carefully designed plan, a process that started decades ago!

We have to fight together against this neoliberal plan. And this is what we, in Kilkis and in so many cities around the world, do now.

For the time being, we are not considering the opening of a donations account. We might, however, need to do this in a few months or even weeks, if the situation gets worse. What we currently need most of all is moral support and publicity. Local struggles all around the world have to spread and gain massive support if we are to win the war against this corrupt system. If you can think of any additional ways to spread our news and ideas, it would be great!

Again, we can’t thank you enough for your kind thoughts and words. This solidarity of yours has a great meaning to us.

You can contact us at the following mail address: enosi.kilkis@yahoo.gr

Yours,
Leta Zotaki,
Director of the radiological department, of Kilkis Hospital,
Member of the workers general assembly,
President of E.N.I.K. (Union of the Doctors of Greek National Health Care System in Kilkis)
February 26, 2012

http://www.marxist.com/letter-from-leta ... psital.htm

I very much doubt this whole question can be solved without violence. Soon the first heads will start rolling, because the power holders will never learn.

[Alexis]

I very much doubt this whole question can be solved without violence. Soon the first heads will start rolling, because the power holders will never learn.

That's a serious worry indeed.

One thing that distresses me particularly is that the reserves of mutual goodwill between European nations are being eroded, and in some cases (between Greece and Germany) eroded fast.

That the euro currency won't survive is not a worry -existence of the unitary currency is the most major reason why we're in this mess in the first place-, that the EU would unravel at least partially is not a grave worry -cooperation between nations does not need a bureaucratic superstructure.

But the reserves of mutual goodwill are what is enabling any kind of cooperation between European nations, and the crisis is endangering them seriously. At some point, the most basic and barest condition of sincere cooperation of "not hating" one another might be endangered: you have to figure every and all European nation falling into economic depression one after the other, and Eurocrats faming the flames of mutual distrust by insisting on failed policies of unitary currency, no organized sovereign bankruptcies and practically unlimited public support for banks.

We can afford euro dismantlement, EU dismantlement, sovereign bankrupticies, bank destructions. We may have to suffer economic depressions.

We don't have to suffer from mutual distrust, even mutual hatred between European nations, and we can't afford those. Yet, current Merkel/Sarkozy/Monti/Draghi/Rajoy/... policies are leading us right there!

[Endovelico]

The Role Ex-Nazis Played in Early West Germany
By Ralf Beste, Georg Bönisch, Thomas Darnstaedt, Jan Friedmann, Michael Fröhlingsdorf and Klaus Wiegrefe

After World War II, West Germany rapidly made the transition from murderous dictatorship to model democracy. Or did it? New documents reveal just how many officials from the Nazi regime found new jobs in Bonn. A surprising number were chosen for senior government positions.

Ten days before Christmas, the German Interior Ministry acquitted itself of an embarrassing duty. It published a list of all former members of the German government with a Nazi past.

The Left Party's parliamentary group had forced the government to come clean about Germany's past by submitting a parliamentary inquiry. Bundestag document 17/8134 officially announced, for the first time, something which had been treated as a taboo in the halls of government for decades: A total of 25 cabinet ministers, one president and one chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany -- as postwar Germany is officially known -- had been members of Nazi organizations.

The document revealed that Chancellor Kurt Georg Kiesinger, a member of the conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) who governed Germany from 1966 to 1969, had been a member of the Nazi Party ever since Adolf Hitler seized power. According to the Interior Ministry list, German President Walter Scheel, a member of the business-friendly Free Democratic Party (FDP) who was in office from 1974 to 1979, had been a Nazi Party member "from 1941 or 1942."

The list names ministers of all political stripes and from a wide range of social backgrounds. Some, like leftist Social Democratic Party (SPD) mastermind Erhard Eppler (Minister of Economic Cooperation), did not become Nazi Party members until the end (at 17, in Eppler's case). Others, like conservative Christian Social Union (CSU) agitator Richard Jaeger (Minister of Justice), had been part of Hitler's paramilitary organization, the SA (since 1933, in Jaeger's case). Even FDP luminary Hans-Dietrich Genscher (first interior minister and later foreign minister), who denies to this day that he knowingly joined the Nazi Party, is listed as a Nazi Party member.

According to the government list, former SPD Finance Minister Karl Schiller was in the SA, while his fellow cabinet minister Horst Ehmke was a Nazi Party member, as were ("presumably," the list notes) former SPD Labor Minister Herbert Ehrenberg and Hans Leussink, a former education minister with no party affiliation. On the conservative side, the report names several former Nazi Party members, including former CDU Foreign Minister Gerhard Schröder and former CDU Minister for Displaced Persons Theodor Oberländer, as well as former CSU Post and Communication Minister Richard Stücklen and former CSU Interior Minister Friedrich Zimmermann.

Germany's Dark Past

None of this information is new. It isn't just since the 1968 student revolts that critical citizens, intellectuals and the media have broadcast new details on the contemporary relevance of Germany's dark past. For years, the notion that partisans of the Nazi regimes were able to manipulate their way into the top levels of government in the young federal republic, and that former Nazi Party members set the tone in a country governed by the postwar constitution in the 1950s and 60s has been a subject for historians.

But six decades after the Nuremberg Trials against the leaders of the Nazi regime, a new attempt -- the first official one, at that -- to come to terms with postwar Germany's Nazi past is now underway. Now everything has to come out. Throughout the former West Germany, investigations are digging deep, extending all the way down to the foundations, seeking to answer a fundamental question: Just how brown -- the color most associated with the Nazis -- were the first years of postwar West Germany?

The government's 85-page response to the Left Party's inquiry about old Nazis in the halls of power is nothing more than an interim summary of research being undertaken in the archives of many ministries and federal agencies. As part of the effort, historians are reviewing enormous stacks of personnel files on behalf of the government.

No one has ever dug this deeply. The highly controversial study on Nazi involvement at the Foreign Ministry, marketed last year as a bestseller, was only the beginning. Historians are now studying old files at the Finance Ministry, in the judiciary and the Economics Ministry and, in particular, in the police and intelligence services. How many Nazis took part in the rebuilding of the government after World War II? How much influence did the surviving supporters of the Nazi dictatorship have on the establishment and operation of Germany's first functioning democracy?

Officials at the Interior Ministry, the source of the most recent government document, have issued an EU-wide call for assistance in addressing Germany's Nazi past. Historians from the western city of Bochum are now poring over old files from the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV) which stretch for about 500 meters (1,640 feet) to determine how many of the Nazi dictatorship's helpers hid under the coattails of the domestic intelligence service in the early years of the Federal Republic -- and how this could have happened.

(...)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 07,00.html

Are all Germans nazi sympathizers? Of course not. But far too many are/were, so that one may suspect that frame of mind being responsible for the German anti-southern European bias. Germans mistreat southern Europeans because they think they are superior to their southern neighbours. After all, "Arbeit macht Frei..."

[YMix]

After World War II, West Germany rapidly made the transition from murderous dictatorship to model democracy. Or did it? New documents reveal just how many officials from the Nazi regime found new jobs in Bonn. A surprising number were chosen for senior government positions.

I'm neither surprised, nor outraged. Since most of the country's politicians had gone along with the former regime, who were they going to appoint? I'm not sure they had many options at that point.