Ukraine

[Parodite]

Agreed, we will have to see. The past is never enough to predict the future.

[noddy]

yeh, nobody has any idea on any of this - their is a good chance the right wing isolationists go all in on sucking up to putin.

one thing is true tho - if Europe decides to allow Russia to bomb its borders for the crime of wanting to be integrated with Europe, and decides to play 'real politic' and go all in with Russia and China for short term stability.

then Europe is dead already anyway , an old sick culture waiting for immigrants to pick up the pieces.

seems unlikely they have any other outcome infront of em anyway I spose - demographically and beurocratically retarded to the point of exhaustion.

[Heracleum Persicum]

yeh, nobody has any idea on any of this - their is a good chance the right wing isolationists go all in on sucking up to putin.

one thing is true tho - if Europe decides to allow Russia to bomb its borders for the crime of wanting to be integrated with Europe, and decides to play 'real politic' and go all in with Russia and China for short term stability.

then Europe is dead already anyway , an old sick culture waiting for immigrants to pick up the pieces.

seems unlikely they have any other outcome infront of em anyway I spose - demographically and beurocratically retarded to the point of exhaustion.

It always good to have the fact before distorting them

Russia not bombing Ukraine because Ukraine wants to "integrate with Europe".

The only issue for Russia is NATO moving into Ukraine as NATO did move to Baltic etc, that would mean NATO @ Russian border

Ukraine went to Europeans/West and asked for economic backing .. West, under pretext of "integrated with Europe" conditioned NATO stuff.

Ukraine democratically elected president decided NO, and moved towards Russia

That is when Victoria Nuland and Soros organized a "coup d'etat" and we ended where we @ now

Putin swallowed all this , and proposed a "comprehensive security agreement between Russia and Europe"

Biden said NO

West was misinformed about Russian strength .. and .. did not come to their mind that today World not same World as pre Iraq and Afghan and Libya war .. world has looked what West did and sanctions against Iran .. and .. World decided to become their own man, no more West leading the world.

This did not come to Western minds .. that world no all i.d.i.o.t.s

Now West is on her own .. West represent only WEST and no more "free world"

Neither Putin nor mad mullahs nor West could dream of this outcome

.

[noddy]

It always good to have the fact before distorting them

yes, it is - your post and mine say exactly the same thing, but you distorted it

Russia not bombing Ukraine because Ukraine wants to "integrate with Europe".

The only issue for Russia is NATO moving into Ukraine as NATO did move to Baltic etc, that would mean NATO @ Russian border

sounds like integrating into europe to me - now all the scandinvaians and fins have joined NATO and the border with russia is HUGE.

why dont you talk about that ? why arent they bombing finland ?

the story seems distorted.

Ukraine went to Europeans/West and asked for economic backing .. West, under pretext of "integrated with Europe" conditioned NATO stuff.

Ukraine democratically elected president decided NO, and moved towards Russia

That is when Victoria Nuland and Soros organized a "coup d'etat" and we ended where we @ now

conspiracy and Putin propoganda - every man and his dog was playing games with the elections and Putin lost, the last free election in Ukraine showed everywhere massively more pro western than pro russian

Putin swallowed all this , and proposed a "comprehensive security agreement between Russia and Europe"

the only thing being swallowed here is putins d*ck.

Biden said NO

the same Russia which invaded its other neighhours, the same Russia ignoring its agreement and letting Armenia die.

an agreement with Russia is worth nothing.

.. and .. did not come to their mind that today World not same World as pre Iraq and Afghan and Libya war .. world has looked what West did and sanctions against Iran .. and .. World decided to become their own man, no more West leading the world.

West was misinformed about Russian strength

more d*ck sucking.

hardly involved, demographically weak and incapable of maintaining any kind of focus, they have done almost nothing that might have upset putin but they have apologised for being attacked, worried they might in trouble.

sounds exactly like what I said already, europe is a zombie zone full of scared old people trying to cling to what they have left - the simple act of not lettting russia bomb their borders is too much for them to react too as a power.

even then tho - using left over cold war junk from the back of the warehouse, they have managed to give enough resources to the Ukrainians that one year later, russia still doesnt control a single province.

if russia is so STRONK and the ukrainians are so desperate to be russia, why is that so ? how does that work ?

maybe you are distoring the reality.

This did not come to Western minds .. that world no all i.d.i.o.t.s


Neither Putin nor mad mullahs nor West could dream of this outcome

.

russia is bombing ukraine, you seem to be mistake once again who is attacking who. - you are distorting reality that its the wests fault utin is angry and bombing them, blaming the victim - putin has no right to bomb cities because he is upset, nobody does.

they are in glorious company now, with the bush era american government who bombed Iraq for upsetting them, if the world had justice in it - both would be shot and forgotten.

good luck to the mad mullahs, they can bomb as many kids as they like too! a grand new world order of more cities being bombed because some asshole got upset.

looking forward to this multipolar shitzone, i wonder which cities get bombed next because a dictator was angry.

place your bets.

Now West is on her own .. West represent only WEST and no more "free world"

this has been the case for a very long time, you just seem to be learning it now, so im glad you are catching up.

[Parodite]

Reality is not straight lines going up or down forever. HP you see West decline and no longer world leader. But already there we see a different world. I never saw West as "world leader", nor better or worse than others.

I live in Western Europe, so obviously this is "the center" of my world. There are things I like here, like less and even find annoying, sometimes even disgusting.

What I appreciate most here is freedom of speech with no Mullah ethics police beardy boys on mopeds harassing me, no Junta death squads, no Nazi thugs, Bolshevik madmobs, no 24/7 sadists, maniacs, other murderers, no armed gangsters...dominating my environment. The monster is under control and chained. A rare time of prosperity and peace. It might not last.

I live in one of the easiest, safest, and comfortable places in the world. Dutch culture is stoic and on the cold side of the moon, but also blunt, unashamed, pragmatic, confident. I'm selfish enough to want keeping it that way.

No matter what you see or like about Putin, your hero who stands up against the West, to me he is just a murderous psychopath thug who kills innocent people in Ukraine, an old-fashioned aggressor and being full of excuses about it.

I would have no problem decapitating Putler and his gangster friends with the full wrath of Allah! Always had this reaction to bullies. Just can't stand them. In case Putler is stupid enough to insist continuing this rape-fest of Ukraine and the whole thing gets out of control, I'll convert and join the local Islamofascists here around the corner, let the ideology possess me completely, turning me into a ruthless, cruel, revengeful fighter that has only one goal, chasing it without mercy, willing to pay the full price.

Why you think Western Europe opened its door to Islamic immigration? Without those knucklehead Islamofascists Europe would soon be an easy walkover for barbarians pounding the eastern gate.

Imagine those various knucklehead tribes here join forces when a new psycho tries to disturb our way of life. There is nothing like what a common enemy can do to unite the locals. The day that Jews and Muslims fight in the same platoons against gangsters like Putler is not far off. When you share the same physical territory and all do well, managing to co-exist despite your differences, something in our instincts tells us we are of the same team, a gang on alert when an outsider steps over our borders into our territory. The war switch turns on.

[noddy]

I doubt most of the muslim immigrants of Europe will be fighting to save whitey - its not like they stayed and fought for their original countries either

somewhat back on topic.

It doesnt appear the Ukrainian offensive as done much except more meat grinder for both sides but the black sea is looking interesting

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Once again quoting myself from page 60:

The man [Yanukovych] was censored by his own party and replaced by a constitutionally designated official. The national legislature of the time was elected 2 years previous to that president and was satisfied with the results. No one as far as I'm aware in local elections of that year formed a coalition to fight what happened to Yanukovych....

2014 is about the time support for the pro-Russian parties began to wane (always a minority position except for Crimea-- arguably) and Russia found it hard to insert her own 'election-interfering' politicians.

Hence the temper-tantrums.

and I'll post it again and again every time HP tries to circle back to "NATO started it because of Yanukovych"

[Heracleum Persicum]

Reality is not straight lines going up or down forever. HP you see West decline and no longer world leader. But already there we see a different world. I never saw West as "world leader", nor better or worse than others.

I live in Western Europe, so obviously this is "the center" of my world. There are things I like here, like less and even find annoying, sometimes even disgusting.

What I appreciate most here is freedom of speech with no Mullah ethics police beardy boys on mopeds harassing me, no Junta death squads, no Nazi thugs, Bolshevik madmobs, no 24/7 sadists, maniacs, other murderers, no armed gangsters...dominating my environment. The monster is under control and chained. A rare time of prosperity and peace. It might not last.

I live in one of the easiest, safest, and comfortable places in the world. Dutch culture is stoic and on the cold side of the moon, but also blunt, unashamed, pragmatic, confident. I'm selfish enough to want keeping it that way.

No matter what you see or like about Putin, your hero who stands up against the West, to me he is just a murderous psychopath thug who kills innocent people in Ukraine, an old-fashioned aggressor and being full of excuses about it.

I would have no problem decapitating Putler and his gangster friends with the full wrath of Allah! Always had this reaction to bullies. Just can't stand them. In case Putler is stupid enough to insist continuing this rape-fest of Ukraine and the whole thing gets out of control, I'll convert and join the local Islamofascists here around the corner, let the ideology possess me completely, turning me into a ruthless, cruel, revengeful fighter that has only one goal, chasing it without mercy, willing to pay the full price.

Why you think Western Europe opened its door to Islamic immigration? Without those knucklehead Islamofascists Europe would soon be an easy walkover for barbarians pounding the eastern gate.

Imagine those various knucklehead tribes here join forces when a new psycho tries to disturb our way of life. There is nothing like what a common enemy can do to unite the locals. The day that Jews and Muslims fight in the same platoons against gangsters like Putler is not far off. When you share the same physical territory and all do well, managing to co-exist despite your differences, something in our instincts tells us we are of the same team, a gang on alert when an outsider steps over our borders into our territory. The war switch turns on.

Parodite, you living in wonderful Europe, wunderbar, wish all the best

But why you sending NATO to wipe out Libya or Afghanistan ?

Europe should mind Europe, it's economy, it's security within it's borders, it's cultures and civilization .. and leave others in peace

World is not meddling in European politics, not wanting to change European way of life, not sending weapons to internal European hotspots .. all these European business and not other non Europeans .. Europe should follow same rules

last 300 yrs, Europe (and later US) acted as being in charge of the world, colonialism and WW1, WW2, jewish holocaust, (probably) many 100 millions died in the hands alike of aDolf and Churchill (and Leopold II of Belgium)

Now, world saying to our beloved Europe, pls mind your own business and stay within your (agreed) wonderful garden of paradise.

Nobody wishing bad for Europe, Iranians love Europe, beautiful girls and wine and Italian food and Weißwurst and Hefeweißbier .. but seems Europe does not wish same for Russians, Iranians, Chinese or Indians.

West, should read Rumi and become more a MENSCH

.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Once again quoting myself from page 60:

The man [Yanukovych] was censored by his own party and replaced by a constitutionally designated official. The national legislature of the time was elected 2 years previous to that president and was satisfied with the results. No one as far as I'm aware in local elections of that year formed a coalition to fight what happened to Yanukovych....

2014 is about the time support for the pro-Russian parties began to wane (always a minority position except for Crimea-- arguably) and Russia found it hard to insert her own 'election-interfering' politicians.

Hence the temper-tantrums.

and I'll post it again and again every time HP tries to circle back to "NATO started it because of Yanukovych"

Bush and Gorbachev agreed NATO stays @ Germany border .. Eastern Europe becomes a buffer zone between Russia and Europe

That was the deal for Russia to let go of East Europe .. they agreed on that

Many top top American and German politicians present at meetings said and agreed that this was the agreement.

The rest is "elevator music"

Boris Yeltsin meant good, not so the west .. west (naively) thought they foolin Russian Bear, but in reality were fooling themselves, they knew where things will end ..

No need of amateur HP, just watch what "John Mearsheimer" sayin

Naive Western thinking, Russia a nobody, leading now west being marginalized , losing leadership in world politics and economy .. and emergence of other powers

unfortunately

[Parodite]

Parodite, you living in wonderful Europe, wunderbar, wish all the best

Thank you.

But why you sending NATO to wipe out Libya or Afghanistan ?

Who, me? You takkin' to me? I had nothing to do with any of those decisions! And I have a loooong list of things I don't particularly like about Europe.

You see, here it is normal that people don't exactly agree on everything in Europe and outside of Europe. Because there is freedom of speech and thought with and actual open conversation possible in society. The intolerant left Wokies and their henchmen in business, media and pc politics are now a growing threat, but so far without too much success. They slaughter-cancelled Russell Brand but still a consensus exists that everybody is innocent until proven guilty and entitled to due process, a fair hearing.

There also is a consensus here that the Dutch had a fair share in bloody colonialism and slavery. Although way too late, "we" apologized, typical Dutch stand-up comedy, first the Prime Minister and later our "King" Willem Alexander who hates his role but accepted his fate.

Dutch society is somewhat split how to engage Putler, but a consensus exists that nothing justifies his aggression against Ukraine. No real or perceived agreements, promises made in the past between people will change that. He is the aggressor, the bully, the murderous thug. And yes, he would have liked to join EU-NATO, but having one idiotic demand and precondition: Ukraine should not have that same right.

If I were a pro-West Ukrainian, I would love to get rid of those Eastern provinces with Russian speaking people who feel more loyal to mother Russia anyways, but would claim the Black sea ports and Crimea. Not because of their architecture and lovely beaches; just to prevent Putler using them as an arm to wrestle and choke Ukraine with in the future.

Ukraine is the one thing Putler never wanted to let go. He was clear and honest from the very beginning. No secrets.

The West doesn't want any Russian territory beyond Ukraine, Baltics, Poland, Romania, Ukraine. We just want those previous enslaved concubines from the Russian Rapist to be free, make their own choices. They clearly want to be part of the Western European block and share in NATOs security agreements. Nobody forces them to want this. It is pure love and friendship that drives us together!

Russia in the future will also join this neighborhood of civilized friends when it is able to completely let go of USSR nostalgia and the delusion that force, violence and twisting the truth can hold a society together. When you start beating and raping your wife because she threatens to leave you, it is all over already.

Europe should mind Europe, it's economy, it's security within it's borders, it's cultures and civilization .. and leave others in peace

For once I completely agree. It is the universal rule we all should try live by. It is also the rule that historically and globally failed most of the time everywhere. Blood on all hands.

World is not meddling in European politics, not wanting to change European way of life, not sending weapons to internal European hotspots .. all these European business and not other non Europeans ...

That is because Europe might be old, but still a top dog. Filthy rich, bad-ass armed, taking good care of all its citizens who enjoy freedoms hard to get elsewhere, except for the other top dog: the USA, created by the strongest European genes who had the smarts, courage and energy to wrestle free from the yoke of government, feudal oppression, class exploitation, building something new from scratch across the Atlantic.

Europe should follow same rules

last 300 yrs, Europe (and later US) acted as being in charge of the world, colonialism and WW1, WW2, jewish holocaust, (probably) many 100 millions died in the hands alike of aDolf and Churchill (and Leopold II of Belgium)

Now, world saying to our beloved Europe, pls mind your own business and stay within your (agreed) wonderful garden of paradise.

Nobody wishing bad for Europe, Iranians love Europe, beautiful girls and wine and Italian food and Weißwurst and Hefeweißbier .. but seems Europe does not wish same for Russians, Iranians, Chinese or Indians.

West, should read Rumi and become more a MENSCH

West is not paradise or angel. Just ahead of all curves, good ones and bad ones. First to stop slavery too, and the only ones to publicly apologize for crimes of colonial past, have critical internal evaluations. Not complete, but a beginning.

West with its Asian allies are the only adults in the room. Iran, Russia and China will get there too, they just happen to arrive late at the party and still not able to stop blaming mommy and daddy West. Children must take life in own hands, learn, make mistakes, look at and confess own sins too before able to grow up. Just like mom and dad also had to and are still learning.

[Parodite]

My answer would be: indeed NATO has let down Ukraine big time by refusing to grant them NATO membership immediately once it was clear who was the new psycho at the Russian helm: Putin. Too late now sad sad sad. Ukrainians and Russian canon fodder pay a big price indeed.

Of course the immense pain even travels across the Atlantic, where the likes of Tucker Carlson cry because it is so unfair that all those billions are spent on other people's border problems instead of their own border in the south!

TDS is apparently not enough, now we can add ZDS thanks to Zelensky. You know, that terrible pope-like beggar who narcissistically tries to emulate Churchill. Extorting billions from the West with his mind-games just to feed that WEF initiated proxy war.

Well, Zelensky is Jewish and therefor can be expected to be cunning and good with money. Messing with the minds of the gentiles. An old Jewish spare time hobby that started with the launch of their most successful meme in history: Jesus Christ.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

The Problem in the West is the responsible people in any calamity, military, political decisions, economic decisions (passing law for and executing the laws) are not punished once the facts are undeniably out.

W.Bush laughing (Afghan, Iraq fiasco broke back of American camel), Bill Clinton , Kissinger , Obama (Libya, Syria disaster) and and and , many.

Why W.Bush is not taken to US court and tried for Iraq/Afghan disaster ? Bush damaged America much more than mad mullahs or Xi or Putin

Why General (Ret) David H. Petraeus is not in court explaining not saying the truth in Afghanistan ?

Same now happening in Ukraine .. Everybody in West, including "free Media" saying Ukraine winning .. in a generation when Ukraine probably already partitioned and all the rest, nobody will be accountable

That is Western problem .. fool and lie to Joe and when thing in toilet and flashed, wash your hands, be promoted (for being team player) and maybe get partner in KKR

Unfortunately
.

[noddy]

.

The Problem in the West is the responsible people in any calamity, military, political decisions, economic decisions (passing law for and executing the laws) are not punished once the facts are undeniably out.

W.Bush laughing (Afghan, Iraq fiasco broke back of American camel), Bill Clinton , Kissinger , Obama (Libya, Syria disaster) and and and , many.

Why W.Bush is not taken to US court and tried for Iraq/Afghan disaster ? Bush damaged America much more than mad mullahs or Xi or Putin

absolutely true.

the war on iraq was the death of american global trust, it doesnt matter what geopolitical reasons they had for it, nothing justifies the civilian death toll - the lack of legal consequence for that, is the corruption of modern america.

Same now happening in Ukraine .. Everybody in West, including "free Media" saying Ukraine winning .. in a generation when Ukraine probably already partitioned and all the rest, nobody will be accountable

That is Western problem .. fool and lie to Joe and when thing in toilet and flashed, wash your hands, be promoted (for being team player) and maybe get partner in KKR

Unfortunately
.

yes the western media is lying, yes western trouble makers (and russian troublemakers, and chinese troublemakers and..) are involved in playing games with other countries elections.

Putin is dropping bombs on innocent cities this time, for unjustified geopolitical reasons

[Heracleum Persicum]

Putin is dropping bombs on innocent cities this time, for unjustified geopolitical reasons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian ... zi_Germany


A very high percentage of SS and concentration camp killers and torturers were Ukrainians and Baltic

Germans say at end of WW2 , over 80% of SS were other Europeans, not Germans

Cooperation with Nazi Germany among west and east Europeans was very high

The only resistance were by communists ( partisans )

Killing Jews Baltics and Ukrainians were more cruel than Germans

For example :

Baltics marched their fellow Jews to town squares and beat them to death with hammers and sticks

Even the Germans were shocked


After the war , The English gave permission to the most murderous cruel SS Division “ Galizia “ ,( west Ukrainians volunteered to fight for Nazi SS ) to emigrate en masse to UK and Canada

You saw one of their veterans days ago in Canadian parliament

and

In spring 1940, German army defeated "Combined French & UK armies” in 11 days ..

BTW, read somewhere, I think a French ss unit was one of the last fighting in Berlin before German surrender


Interesting to see whether Typhoon would delete this .. yes .. truth hurts

[noddy]

The Canada thing was pretty funny - Trudeau is an absurdity, no doubts there.

Interesting you now admit Ukraine is a sperate , German aligned country , has been fighting the Russians for more than 70 years now - have you thought this angle of argument through ?

Jumping around history to make vague points never adds up.

[Heracleum Persicum]

The Canada thing was pretty funny - Trudeau is an absurdity, no doubts there.

Interesting you now admit Ukraine is a sperate , German aligned country , has been fighting the Russians for more than 70 years now - have you thought this angle of argument through ?

Jumping around history to make vague points never adds up.

Central issue here is how a wise politician of a smaller nation would handle a "neighbourly" relation with a much more powerful neighbour.

This issue prevalent in many places, Vietnam/China, US/Mexico , US/Canada , India with neighbours etc etc

True, looking at them in history one can see many skirmishes between them , all of them

But the skirmishes been handled between them one way or other for centuries. sometimes one prevails sometime the other .. That is why they still exist

Problem rises when the smaller party, thinks better bring help from far away forces (who have their own agenda helping)

That very prevalent in Arab countries confronting Iran .. UAE, and other city states thinking America can bring them security against Iran (even Shah time).

The result of this is, the small nation feel strong and starts enacting policies which is against vital interest of the big neighbour.

This a unwise politics as the outside force's interest shifts (in politics there no friend, only interest), or not be worth meddling .. considering that the neighbours gotto live next to each for next 1000 yrs.

That also now showing in Israel.

(small country) Israel thought they can rely on US/Europe to push their agenda against much bigger other Middle Eastern, Arabs, Iran etc

This too changing .. now US and Europe weakening, retreating, and others becoming stronger .. the world geopolitics changing dramatically

Ukraine making the mistake thinking bringing the bully NATO to Russian/Ukraine border will straighten Ukraine position.

One can see now the result.

Same mistake is made by Baltic states .. they now the most aggressive anti Russia thinking they in NATO and protected .. the classic mistake .. that is exactly what should not happen , a mini state relying on distant outside power to fiercely confront the big next door neighbour .. big unwise mistake .. in 100 yrs, there for sure no NATO , but Baltic states and Russia next to each other still there for next 1000 yrs

[Heracleum Persicum]

Once again quoting myself from page 60:

The man [Yanukovych] was censored by his own party and replaced by a constitutionally designated official. The national legislature of the time was elected 2 years previous to that president and was satisfied with the results. No one as far as I'm aware in local elections of that year formed a coalition to fight what happened to Yanukovych....

2014 is about the time support for the pro-Russian parties began to wane (always a minority position except for Crimea-- arguably) and Russia found it hard to insert her own 'election-interfering' politicians.

Hence the temper-tantrums.

and I'll post it again and again every time HP tries to circle back to "NATO started it because of Yanukovych"

.

NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg told the European parliament on 7 September 2023 that President Putin's invasion of Ukraine was "to prevent more NATO" expansion along Russia's borders.

Full remarks :

"President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

"The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

"So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite. He has got more NATO presence in eastern part of the Alliance and he has also seen that Finland has already joined the Alliance and Sweden will soon be a full member.

"This is this is good for the Nordic countries. It's good for Finland and Sweden. And it's also good for NATO. And it demonstrates that when President Putin invaded a European country to prevent more NATO, he's getting the exact opposite."

Well, NapLajoieonSteroids , what about NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg sayin what HP sayin ? ?

What now ! !


In the meantime :


few gains
while suffering big losses

Ukraine has not made any significant progress so far, and in some cases, its forces have been pushed back.

The Russians have published some numbers on Ukrainian losses in September to date. Ukraine has lost more than 17,000 soldiers so far this month, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu told a ministry board meeting.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Well, NapLajoieonSteroids , what about NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg sayin what HP sayin ? ?

What now ! !

You've not been calling Russia a belligerent state 'cause that's what the Secretary General is saying.

Russia made an unreasonable demand-- not only stop countries from joining NATO but then pull out all troops from NATO countries that have joined since 1997- over 20 years ago. And if these demands were not met, immediately to war.

One couldn't spell out any simpler who is being the aggressive, belligerent party than this admission.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Well, NapLajoieonSteroids , what about NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg sayin what HP sayin ? ?

What now ! !

You've not been calling Russia a belligerent state 'cause that's what the Secretary General is saying.

Russia made an unreasonable demand-- not only stop countries from joining NATO but then pull out all troops from NATO countries that have joined since 1997- over 20 years ago. And if these demands were not met, immediately to war.

One couldn't spell out any simpler who is being the aggressive, belligerent party than this admission.

As said, Bush and Gorbachov agreed NATO stays @ German boarder .. that is why Russians moved out of E.Germany

Idea was East Europe stays as buffer Zone between Russia and Europe .. securing Russian and European security

West did not keep the promise

Not only East Europe was integrated within NATO (and turned to an Russian enemy, forward enemy base) but Except Ukraine, all other nations bordering Russian, Baltic (and Turkey) were integrated into NATO .. Now NATO nibbling in Caucasus (and central Asia) to encircle Iran and Russia.

That is when uncle Vladimiro said, first time shame on you second time shame on me .. said enough is enough, sent the security arrangement proposal to Biden and EU, when answer was NO, BANG .. West knew and was working towards this outcome and preparing for yrs for this, as NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg very clearly says in clip.

This was no accident but planned policy since Bill Clinton. Everybody knew including Russians. Putin too was preparing for this

Russians knew about NATO/Western military and economic might , but West did not know about Russians .. that is why West misjudged thinking Russia will fold within months

The opposite happened

NATO was (and is) an enemy force for Russia (and Iran and China and central Asia) , maybe later for India too (should India become too powerful as China becoming now), easy to agitate within Indian (what we see now with Canada Sikh Khalistan rubbish).

You no more dealing with fools.

But, the real disaster for west is , world watching Afghanistan, Libya , Syria, Iraq said "enough is enough", and moved away from West and now west is on her own.

That is the real calamity

Ukraine is finished, will be partitiant and probably million dead and will commit to neutrality.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

As said, Bush and Gorbachov agreed NATO stays @ German boarder .. that is why Russians moved out of E.Germany

Idea was East Europe stays as buffer Zone between Russia and Europe .. securing Russian and European security

West did not keep the promise

If this alleged verbal agreement is true, they most certainly kept their promise and it's calumny to suggest otherwise. It would've been an agreement made with a legal entity which ceased to exist in 1991 and was no longer binding on anyone after its dissolution. And that dissolution was voted upon country to country-- as I recall, the Ukraine voted in all its provinces to break ties with Russia.

This buffer zone- populated with people and not chess pieces- have their own interests and motives and reasonings which did not include being some rump plaything of the Russians.

[noddy]

its all gibberish and bullshit, the story changes with the wind.

NATO was (and is) an enemy force for Russia (and Iran and China and central Asia) ,

this is the real truth, everything else is draping legitimacy over a turd.

How europe responds is going to be very interesting, maintain legitimacy over its own borders or become a retirement village for other people.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

This line of thinking is so full of s&it...

This napkin agreement is supposed to be forever binding but Russian subordination to a General Secretary and the Communist Party (which conquered the old Russian Empire and dissolved it) can come and go as convenient. And the implication, and how deep the stupidity goes, is that the current Russian government itself-- from Yeltsin and the oligarchs on down- have always been illegitimate and are not an actual entity to make any demands of state.

[noddy]

its gibberish, and gets trotted out with the somber line that canada/mexico must obey US wishes or they will be carpet bombed.
--
also requires the *something* to believe europe would actually want to invade russia and be responsible for it.

I cant damage my brain enough to beleive that one, its a level beyond stupid.

[noddy]

the putin trolls have to go on the attack at the moment.

another stan has decided it would rather be tied to europe than putins nightmares.

https://astanatimes.com/2023/09/kazakhs ... relations/

Russia's version of NATO is losing partners fast, so many smokescreens and lies will need to be repeated, often and loudly.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Just insane really. Could anyone imagine NATO circa early 90s sending in troops into Russian territory at its most chaotic point and claiming that they were just there to secure the old Russian Empire borders to do a solid for the guy, Gorbachev, who was just ousted from power?

And moreover, this is just 'okay' with everyone and would not lead to conflagration.

Children are not this naive; adult Russian apologist certainly can't be.