Religion

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Religion

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.
Can one cherry pick the laws of a religion, follow this, not follow that .. and .. still call oneself Christian and Jew and Muslim

Can one say I do not agree with this paragraph of old testament or new testament or Koran .. and still call oneself christian and Jews and Muslim

IMHO , NO

IMO, either those books must be accepted in their entirety, or dropped .. can not be cherry picked


Reform officially considers Jewish law non-binding, while Conservative/ Masorti considers it binding.


reform does not mean, I take this psalm, forget that psalm

Reform means, going to the original meaning of psalms and interpreting it the way it was meant from the beginning before it became corrupted

And if this can not be done, if so, 4get the whole thing

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Judaism and modernity

12/30/2011 16:27

By REUVEN HAMMER

Reform officially considers Jewish law non-binding, while Conservative/ Masorti considers it binding In a recent article, Yoni Goldstein of Toronto wrote that modern Orthodoxy is the only brand of Judaism that encourages people to (a) keep Shabbat according to the letter of the law and (b) check e-mail or turn on the TV once three stars appear. Haredi Orthodoxy is only concerned with “a” – the law – while “Reform and Conservative don’t see a particular need to do ‘a.’”

The writer thus lumps Conservative and Reform together, as do many people who see no difference between movements that are considered “non-Orthodox.” Without intending to deprecate my Reform colleagues, I must insist that there are differences and that the main difference still consists of the attitude toward Jewish law: Reform officially considers it non-binding, while Conservative/ Masorti considers it binding.

Masorti Judaism certainly does encourage its adherents to observe the laws of Shabbat while respecting modernity, although in some instances it may differ from the modern Orthodox regarding exactly what those laws require. It is true that sometimes – but not always – we may arrive at different conclusions than our Orthodox colleagues do, but it is not true that we are not committed to Shabbat observance and other aspects of Jewish law just because we are part of the modern world. Are there not differences within modern Orthodoxy itself? There certainly are between modern Orthodoxy and haredi Orthodoxy regarding “the letter of the law.”

I recently attended a two-day meeting of the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards of the Rabbinical Assembly, of which I am a member, and we spent the entire time discussing matters of Halacha. Two of the major items concerned kashrut and Shabbat observance in great detail.

Actually Conservative/Masorti Judaism began not as a reaction to Orthodoxy, but as a reaction to Reform. The movement was the outcome of the work of Zecharia Frankel, a renowned 19th-century German rabbi and scholar. Frankel – who famously walked out of a liberal rabbinical conference in Frankfurt in 1845 when it refused to adopt firm guidelines for changes in tradition and decided that Hebrew need not be used in prayer – founded the Jewish Theological Seminary of Breslau and headed a group that came to be known as the Positive- Historical School.

He contended that there were three groups within religious Judaism: Orthodoxy, which insisted on observance of every item, no matter how small, and on adherence to traditional ideas and beliefs even when they contradicted modern knowledge; Reform, which did away with traditional forms and insisted on a return to Prophetic Judaism; and a third way, which he defined as “rational belief, observance of mitzvot with understanding of their meaning, accompanied by the possibility of forgoing details that are not basic and not in keeping with modern understanding – thus keeping both the Divine essence of Judaism and its historical basis.” This third way was his way; it eventually became the Conservative Movement when it was transplanted to the United States, and the Masorti Movement in Israel.

These definitions may no longer be exact, as major changes have taken place in both Orthodoxy and Reform since Frankel’s time, but Conservative Judaism is still based upon the attempt to preserve the essence of Jewish belief and practice – that is why it is called “Conservative” – while attempting to make Judaism meaningful and relevant for the times in which we live.

It is obvious that as long as Israel continues to have an official Chief Rabbinate (which is anything but modern Orthodox) and grants it exclusive religious power, the Masorti Movement will be forced to work under legal and fiscal impediments. This is a great pity, because this third way, to use Frankel’s term, could prove meaningful to many Israelis who are looking for a pathway into Judaism and are not finding it in the “official” religion of Israel. What a shame that Israel remains the only country in the free world where one brand of Judaism, and only one, can function freely and legally.

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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Religion

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

It isn't that simple, Azari. In Exodus God proclaims different types of laws. The ten commandments are how we are to honor God and are completely non-negotiable.

But a bit later in Exodus, God gives a rather disorganized bunch of laws designed to aid the peaceful cohesiveness of the community. These form the basis of a civil law code, and magistrates are expected to listen to God and make wise decisions based on God's few hypothetical and extreme cases. These laws are expected to change as society matures, and man has no choice but to prayerfully extrapolate from the small handful of examples God gives.

Everything which is of God is alive and changing. Even the revelation of the law.
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Re: Religion

Post by Marcus »

Here you go, ALI, from the Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646 . . pretty much what Nonc said. I'd add only that the law of God is eternal and unchanging. Only our understanding of its application changes.
Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God


I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.
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Re: Religion

Post by Enki »

Spirituality is one's relationship to God. Religion is a system of control mechanism by which a priest class seeks to gain dominance over the spiritual life of others.

Dqu6H7rhsHk
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Re: Religion

Post by Parodite »

I liked the Christian saying: "You are talking lavender" :D I kind of.. agree. :?
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Enki
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Re: Religion

Post by Enki »

Parodite wrote:I liked the Christian saying: "You are talking lavender" :D I kind of.. agree. :?
What are you, some kind of Christian fundamentalist now? :lol:

A friend of mine posted that after I posted to my Facebook "Buddhist Nirvana is Christian Hell".
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Re: Religion

Post by Parodite »

Enki wrote:
Parodite wrote:I liked the Christian saying: "You are talking lavender" :D I kind of.. agree. :?
What are you, some kind of Christian fundamentalist now? :lol:
Yes! The light emitting Gestalt of Christ appeared at my beds footend at 03.17 am a week ago, nodding his head in dismay begging me to let Him help me. I refused again because I never let anybody disturb the quiet and privacy of my bedroom without permission. Then he smiled and handed me a paper that turned out a Kabalah 1st degree certificate.
A friend of mine posted that after I posted to my Facebook "Buddhist Nirvana is Christian Hell".
There are many Buddhists so conceptually full of themselves that simple relaxation of the mind becomes a control-freakish circus act. The dog and the dogwhisperer all-in-one.
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Re: Religion

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Many types of Buddhism. In Sri Lanka Buddhism comes with AK-47's and grenade launchers.
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Re: Religion

Post by Parodite »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Many types of Buddhism. In Sri Lanka Buddhism comes with AK-47's and grenade launchers.
Yea... with a lot of formerly very busy minds suddenly extremely quiet. In terms of effectiveness...
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Re: Religion

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:It isn't that simple, Azari. In Exodus God proclaims different types of laws. The ten commandments are how we are to honor God and are completely non-negotiable.

But a bit later in Exodus, God gives a rather disorganized bunch of laws designed to aid the peaceful cohesiveness of the community. These form the basis of a civil law code, and magistrates are expected to listen to God and make wise decisions based on God's few hypothetical and extreme cases. These laws are expected to change as society matures, and man has no choice but to prayerfully extrapolate from the small handful of examples God gives.

Everything which is of God is alive and changing. Even the revelation of the law.
That last statement; doesn't it need a prophet, or messiah, or someone to lead it?
How can we take it upon ourselves to extrapolate and be sure that it is what was intended?
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Re: Religion

Post by Parodite »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:It isn't that simple, Azari. In Exodus God proclaims different types of laws. The ten commandments are how we are to honor God and are completely non-negotiable.

But a bit later in Exodus, God gives a rather disorganized bunch of laws designed to aid the peaceful cohesiveness of the community. These form the basis of a civil law code, and magistrates are expected to listen to God and make wise decisions based on God's few hypothetical and extreme cases. These laws are expected to change as society matures, and man has no choice but to prayerfully extrapolate from the small handful of examples God gives.

Everything which is of God is alive and changing. Even the revelation of the law.
That last statement; doesn't it need a prophet, or messiah, or someone to lead it?
How can we take it upon ourselves to extrapolate and be sure that it is what was intended?
Ha, if I may... this appears to be the age old conundrum. On what is a/your faith grounded? How true is a particular faith, that just seems to be breast fed into you? (any general you I mean..)

My take is that a religious background is just there... like a mother tongue. Whatever was in your background will be the canvas on which your life will be painted (forgive me the bad poetry). You cannot be sure that canvas is totally reliable, truthful and of the best quality; probably not, but it doesn't matter too much; It is the stuff you have to work with. If your background pressures you to take the Koran as the literal word of Allah but you feel uncertain of how to do that, or to what extent accept it...in other words it confuses and disturbs you (not saying it does in your case, I don't know), then accept that confusion as your mission in life. Maybe not to solve it, just to understand it without judgement. Facts that present themselves as facts in life, such as confusion about origin and interpretation of Holy texts, doubts about any or all things considered true/valuable you grew up with as a kid.. these doubts are facts of life and must be investigated without judgement. Like two guests in your house: a devout religious believer (not a bad guy), and a sceptical non-believer who doesn't believe lavender (not a bad guy either). They both deserve all attention and respect, have needs..

This is becoming preachy :D Sorry. But that's what I think about it. I didn't grow up in a very religious environment so that devout religious dude never entered my house as a guest, although in periods some religious look-alikes did suddenly sit at my kitchen table begging for coffee and cake.. but disappearing rather soon. But if my religious guest had very strong needs and insisting to stay... I would certainly grant him a lot, even if his ideas were kind of considered idiotic by some other guests' like nose picking seculars that only know how to count. Happiness is an emotional state, and if you only find it in church, mosque or synagogue and reading your Holy book... it would IMHO be crazy to not grant yourself that pleasure just because some other parts of your brain think your faith is stupid.

However, if there is constant strife and war between the irrational religious guest and the non-believing rational one... your mission in life might be, as a host, to get them accept each other as they are and don't bother too much. Polite indifference works in emergency situations like these.

God, doesn't sound all this sweet :P
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Re: Religion

Post by Ibrahim »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Many types of Buddhism. In Sri Lanka Buddhism comes with AK-47's and grenade launchers.
So in your view the civil war with the Tamil Tigers somehow reflects on Buddhist theology?
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Re: Religion

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Parodite wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:It isn't that simple, Azari. In Exodus God proclaims different types of laws. The ten commandments are how we are to honor God and are completely non-negotiable.

But a bit later in Exodus, God gives a rather disorganized bunch of laws designed to aid the peaceful cohesiveness of the community. These form the basis of a civil law code, and magistrates are expected to listen to God and make wise decisions based on God's few hypothetical and extreme cases. These laws are expected to change as society matures, and man has no choice but to prayerfully extrapolate from the small handful of examples God gives.

Everything which is of God is alive and changing. Even the revelation of the law.
That last statement; doesn't it need a prophet, or messiah, or someone to lead it?
How can we take it upon ourselves to extrapolate and be sure that it is what was intended?
Ha, if I may... this appears to be the age old conundrum. On what is a/your faith grounded? How true is a particular faith, that just seems to be breast fed into you? (any general you I mean..)

My take is that a religious background is just there... like a mother tongue. Whatever was in your background will be the canvas on which your life will be painted (forgive me the bad poetry). You cannot be sure that canvas is totally reliable, truthful and of the best quality; probably not, but it doesn't matter too much; It is the stuff you have to work with. If your background pressures you to take the Koran as the literal word of Allah but you feel uncertain of how to do that, or to what extent accept it...in other words it confuses and disturbs you (not saying it does in your case, I don't know), then accept that confusion as your mission in life. Maybe not to solve it, just to understand it without judgement. Facts that present themselves as facts in life, such as confusion about origin and interpretation of Holy texts, doubts about any or all things considered true/valuable you grew up with as a kid.. these doubts are facts of life and must be investigated without judgement. Like two guests in your house: a devout religious believer (not a bad guy), and a sceptical non-believer who doesn't believe lavender (not a bad guy either). They both deserve all attention and respect, have needs..

This is becoming preachy :D Sorry. But that's what I think about it. I didn't grow up in a very religious environment so that devout religious dude never entered my house as a guest, although in periods some religious look-alikes did suddenly sit at my kitchen table begging for coffee and cake.. but disappearing rather soon. But if my religious guest had very strong needs and insisting to stay... I would certainly grant him a lot, even if his ideas were kind of considered idiotic by some other guests' like nose picking seculars that only know how to count. Happiness is an emotional state, and if you only find it in church, mosque or synagogue and reading your Holy book... it would IMHO be crazy to not grant yourself that pleasure just because some other parts of your brain think your faith is stupid.

However, if there is constant strife and war between the irrational religious guest and the non-believing rational one... your mission in life might be, as a host, to get them accept each other as they are and don't bother too much. Polite indifference works in emergency situations like these.

God, doesn't sound all this sweet :P
Who said that God is supposed to be sweet? Christians had to rewrite their books to make him a little less pissed off. Maybe he was and kept giving man a chance until man sent his 'son' packing back to the Heavens. After that the gloves were off. God does not owe us anything. We owe him.

And, not everyone believes based on what they were fed. Some see the logic behind it; others the spirituality even if it is only induced in one's own mind. But does it really matter at that point if one believes out of faith, fear or brainwashing? The latter being the dangerous sect I will admit.
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Re: Religion

Post by Marcus »

Hans Bulvai wrote:Who said that God is supposed to be sweet? . .
I recall an old acquaintance, Otto Scott, telling of his time in the merchant marine, out in a gale on the North Atlantic. Scott's thoughts: "God is no cream-puff."
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Re: Religion

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Chuckle...

:lol:
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Re: Religion

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Ibrahim wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Many types of Buddhism. In Sri Lanka Buddhism comes with AK-47's and grenade launchers.
So in your view the civil war with the Tamil Tigers somehow reflects on Buddhist theology?
Probably more ethnology than theology.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... n-war.html
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Re: Religion

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Well, hell is definitely a state of emotional anguish, but to the Christian the source of that emotional and spiritual anguish is total personal extinction through death. The experience of reality as is, before anything is conceptualised is that life is illusionary and that death is real, and that this state is intolerable. The Revelation is the path and process of how G_d would make Himself manifest in the Real, not merely in words or in conceptualisations. The Bible is the record of what that G_d, or Being does to manifest Himself in the Real. The question for other faith traditions for Christianity is whether this record is convincing or real. Being 'saved' is when you're convinced.....;>.......
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Re: Religion

Post by Parodite »

Hans Bulvai wrote:Who said that God is supposed to be sweet? Christians had to rewrite their books to make him a little less pissed off. Maybe he was and kept giving man a chance until man sent his 'son' packing back to the Heavens. After that the gloves were off. God does not owe us anything. We owe him.

And, not everyone believes based on what they were fed. Some see the logic behind it; others the spirituality even if it is only induced in one's own mind. But does it really matter at that point if one believes out of faith, fear or brainwashing? The latter being the dangerous sect I will admit.
Well what matters, at least in my view, is to recognize facts as facts.

For instance, if it is a fact that you have trouble believing what you were spoonfed with but find it hard to let-be, then you have as it were two guests in your home; the spoonfed believer and the rational doubter... then it is better to respect both, not choose and see what happens.
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Re: Religion

Post by Azrael »

Ibrahim wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Many types of Buddhism. In Sri Lanka Buddhism comes with AK-47's and grenade launchers.
So in your view the civil war with the Tamil Tigers somehow reflects on Buddhist theology?
In Sri Lanka, it is Hinduism that comes with AK-47s and grenade launchers -- the Tamils are Hindu. It's the (pre-British) Sinhalese who are Buddhist.

In truth, Buddhists have ranged from pacifist to ultra-nationalist militarist and everything in between. As have Christians, Hindus and many other religious groups. The basic theology of a religion doesn't seem to prevent its members from committing violence, or condemn its members to commit violence.
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Re: Religion

Post by Ibrahim »

Azrael wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Many types of Buddhism. In Sri Lanka Buddhism comes with AK-47's and grenade launchers.
So in your view the civil war with the Tamil Tigers somehow reflects on Buddhist theology?
In Sri Lanka, it is Hinduism that comes with AK-47s and grenade launchers -- the Tamils are Hindu. It's the (pre-British) Sinhalese who are Buddhist.

In truth, Buddhists have ranged from pacifist to ultra-nationalist militarist and everything in between. As have Christians, Hindus and many other religious groups. The basic theology of a religion doesn't seem to prevent its members from committing violence, or condemn its members to commit violence.
The Tamil Toger fighters were, in large part, "terrorists," or at least used what we identify as terrorist tactics. Yet ultimately the Sinhalese-dominated Sri Lankan army more or less exterminated the last Tamil Tiger strongholds, including civilians, children etc.

So plenty of bad behavior to go round among two religions that are typically seen in the West as almost pacifist.
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Re: Religion

Post by Azrael »

Yeah. Definitely. Western stereotypes can be quite silly. My mother was once engaged to a gringo "Buddhist" who insisted that a Buddhist had never started a war.
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Re: Religion

Post by Typhoon »

Ibrahim wrote:
Azrael wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Many types of Buddhism. In Sri Lanka Buddhism comes with AK-47's and grenade launchers.
So in your view the civil war with the Tamil Tigers somehow reflects on Buddhist theology?
In Sri Lanka, it is Hinduism that comes with AK-47s and grenade launchers -- the Tamils are Hindu. It's the (pre-British) Sinhalese who are Buddhist.

In truth, Buddhists have ranged from pacifist to ultra-nationalist militarist and everything in between. As have Christians, Hindus and many other religious groups. The basic theology of a religion doesn't seem to prevent its members from committing violence, or condemn its members to commit violence.
The Tamil Toger fighters were, in large part, "terrorists," or at least used what we identify as terrorist tactics. Yet ultimately the Sinhalese-dominated Sri Lankan army more or less exterminated the last Tamil Tiger strongholds, including civilians, children etc.

So plenty of bad behavior to go round among two religions that are typically seen in the West as almost pacifist.
Indeed.
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Re: Religion

Post by Typhoon »

US bear market in [institutional] religion?

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Re: Religion

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Good. It is a disease to the faith that constantly supporting the building fund to create 1/4 - occupied churches has taken the place of giving to those that have not.
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Re: Religion

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote:Spirituality is one's relationship to God. Religion is a system of control mechanism by which a priest class seeks to gain dominance over the spiritual life of others.
What if God is a priest and hires them to work for him.
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