New decapitation video of an alleged convert to Christianity

[HAL9000]

This recent video was initially shown on Egyptian television, but it is said by the television program that the actual decapitation of the new Christian convert took place in Tunisia. The actual beheading scene starts at time t = 1:14.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_ ... KJ_FnlAaBo

It is still not clear who was in charge of the execution, and it is also claimed by groups who were offended by this video, that the executed prisoner was not a convert to Christianity but that he was merely punished for being a spy who was working for the United States. On the other hand, it is said in articles that according to the narration (in Arabic) made by the executioners in the video, there are references to apostasy.

In any case, in most Islamic societies, the majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

I am not condemning any religion on the basis of the way it is written, it's the implementation or the interpretation that counts: 500 years ago, any European who insulted Christianity was often punished in a far more painful manner than this prisoner whose execution was relatively easy. So the cruelty of the video is only relative to the more civilized era the 21st century was supposed to be, and this is my point.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

But Americans have bases in their holy land! WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?!?

[Enki]

But Americans have bases in their holy land! WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?!?

You're too smart for this crap.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

But Americans have bases in their holy land! WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?!?

You're too smart for this crap.

Oh come on, like you don't sometimes throw stuff up with the express purpose of pissing in Mr. Perfect's Corn Flakes. We're all entitled to our vices occasionally.

[Enki]

But Americans have bases in their holy land! WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?!?

You're too smart for this crap.

Oh come on, like you don't sometimes throw stuff up with the express purpose of pissing in Mr. Perfect's Corn Flakes. We're all entitled to our vices occasionally.

Ha, LOL, ok.

[YMix]

Oh come on, like you don't sometimes throw stuff up with the express purpose of pissing in Mr. Perfect's Corn Flakes. We're all entitled to our vices occasionally.

Yes, but are you as quiet as a mouse?

[Hoosiernorm]

But Americans have bases in their holy land! WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?!?

They probably didn't have the ability to travel to the nearest US embassy to murder Americans directly and it's too far to travel to kill Israeli's so when your in a pinch you gotta kill what you have on hand.

[Jnalum Persicum]

.

The video probably is staged and fake

YouTube would not carry real beheading, probably even it is against the law

and, have not seen, heard of, anybody being harmed not believing anymore in Islam but believing in Christianity or VooDoo or anything (in ME you can believe in whatever you want) .. all this just rubbish

Matter of fact there is no ceremony of (or for) being Muslim .. there is no initiation or that sort of thing .. you consider Moh last prophet of G_D, you Muslim, you change your mind and believe Buddha last prophet, fine too

All this garbage, Zionist plot to give "usurpation of Palestine" a Muslim-Christian crusade spin

all Bullshit and garbage

ME people awakening and want West out of Middle East, no matter weather WEST Christians or Buddhist or Voodoo or even Muslim.

This ain't religious wars .. this natural resources colonialism

image-402815-galleryV9-hmra.jpg (49.79 KiB) Viewed 773 times

Femen Opens First Office Abroad

.
"We're opening the first international training center for feminists … who want to transform themselves into soldiers," Shevchenko added. Other centers are planned for Montreal, New York and Sao Paulo.
.

Arab Spring proved that Muslims would rather have freedom than increased radicalism



.

[Ibrahim]

In any case, in most Islamic societies, the majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

Then why isn't it?

They probably didn't have the ability to travel to the nearest US embassy to murder Americans directly and it's too far to travel to kill Israeli's so when your in a pinch you gotta kill what you have on hand.

The drawback on not having drone technology, you can't murder people far away by remote control.

[HAL9000]

In any case, in most Islamic societies, the majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

Then why isn't it?




.

In practice it is illegal, as far as the social punishment is concerned. The Qur'an does not prescribe official punishment for apostasy, but various implementations of the Sharia law do.

Here is an article about Aspostay in Islam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

EXCERPT:

[edit]
Background
The violence or threats of violence against apostates in the Muslim world usually derives not from government authorities but from individuals or groups operating with impunity from the government.[72] An example is the stabbing of a Bangladeshi Christian evangelist (a "murtad fitri" or Muslim-born apostate) while returning home from a film version of the Gospel of Luke.[73] Bangladesh does not have a law against apostasy, but some Imams encourage the killing of converts from Islam. Ex-Muslims in Great Britain have faced abuse, violence, and even murder at the hands of Muslims.[74] There are similar reports of violent intimidation of those electing to reject Islam in other Western countries.[75]
Other examples of persecution of apostates converting to Christianity have been given by the Christian organisation Barnabas Fund:
The field of apostasy and blasphemy and related "crimes" is thus obviously a complex syndrome within all Muslim societies which touches a raw nerve and always arouses great emotional outbursts against the perceived acts of treason, betrayal and attacks on Islam and its honour. While there are a few brave dissenting voices within Muslim societies, the threat of the application of the apostasy and blasphemy laws against any who criticize its application is an efficient weapon used to intimidate opponents, silence criticism, punish rivals, reject innovations and reform, and keep non-Muslim communities in their place.[76]
Similar views are expressed by the 'non-religious' International Humanist and Ethical Union.[77]
A survey conducted by the Pew Research Center found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).[78]

[edit]Islamic Republic of Afghanistan

In March 2006, an Afghan citizen Abdul Rahman was charged with apostasy and could have faced the death penalty for converting to Christianity. His case attracted much international attention with Western countries condemning Afghanistan for persecuting a convert. Charges against Abdul Rahman were dismissed on technical grounds by the Afghan court after intervention by the president Hamid Karzai. He was released and left the country to find refuge in Italy.[72]
Two other Afghan converts to Christianity were arrested in March 2006 and their fate is unknown. In February 2006, yet other converts had their homes raided by police.[72]

[edit]IIslamic Republic of Iran

Salman Rushdie is a prominent[79] contemporary figure accused of apostasy. In 1989 a fatwa was issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, the ruler of Iran at the time, calling for the death of Salman Rushdie for the blasphemy of authoring the book The Satanic Verses.
According to US think tank Freedom House, since the 1990s the Islamic Republic of Iran has sometimes used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders. Under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the regime has engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.[72]
15 Ex-Muslim Christians[80] were incarcerated on May 15, 2008 under charges of apostasy. They may face the death penalty if convicted. A new penal code is being proposed in Iran that would require the death penalty in cases of Apostasy on the Internet.[81]
At least two Iranians - Hashem Aghajari and Hassan Youssefi Eshkevari - have been arrested and charged with apostasy in the Islamic Republic (though not executed), not for self-professed conversion to another faith, but for statements and/or activities deemed by courts of the Islamic Republic to be in violation of Islam, and that appear to outsiders to be Islamic reformist political expression.[82] Hashem Aghajari, was found guilty of apostasy for a speech urging Iranians to "not blindly follow" Islamic clerics;[83] Hassan Youssefi Eshkevari was charged with apostasy for attending the 'Iran After the Elections' Conference in Berlin Germany which was disrupted by anti-regime demonstrators.[84]
Youcef Nadarkhani is an Iranian Christian pastor who has been sentenced to death for apostasy.
Bahá'ís in Iran, the nation of origin of the Bahá'í Faith and Iran's largest religious minority, were accused of apostasy in the 19th century by the Shi'a clergy because of their claim to a valid religious revelation subsequent to that of Muhammad. These allegations led to mob attacks, public executions and torture of early Bahais, including the Báb.[85]

[edit]Saudi Arabia

According to the "Online Saudi-arabian Curriculum مناهج السعودية الألكترونية",[86] taught at schools, we read under the title "Judgements on Apostates أحكام المرتدين" the following (in Arabic):[87]
"An Apostate will be suppressed three days in prison in order that he may repent ..... otherwise, he should be killed, because he has changed his true religion, therefore, there is no use from his living, regardless of being a man or a woman, as Mohammed said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him", narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim."

[edit]Algeria
On March 21, 2006, the Algerian parliament approved a new law requiring imprisonment for two to five years and a fine between five and ten thousand euros for anyone "trying to call on a Muslim to embrace another religion." The same penalty applies to anyone who "stores or circulates publications or audio-visual or other means aiming at destabilizing attachment to Islam."[72]

[edit]Turkey
More recently, on 21 January 2007, the Central Council of Ex-Muslims was founded in Germany, an association led by Iranian exile Mina Ahadi and Turkish-German immigrant Arzu Toker. The association stands up for former Muslims who chose to abandon Islam. Shortly after going public on February 28, 2007, the group received death threats by radical islamists.[88]
On 18 April 2007, two Turkish converts to Christianity, Necati Aydin and Uğur Yüksel, were killed in the Malatya bible publishing firm murders. Having tortured them for several hours, the attackers then slit their throats. The attackers stated that they did it in order to defend the state and their religion. The government and other officials in Turkey had in the past criticized Christian missionary work, while the European Union has called for more freedom for the Christian minority.[89][90][91]
A 2010 Pew Research Center poll showed that 5% of Turkish Muslims support death penalty for apostasy.[92]

[edit]Egypt

The Mohammed Hegazy case, shows the huge problems in that country for those wishing to leave Islam and be recognised as a member of another religion — where Hegazy has suffered death threats from family and prominent Islamic figures alike. A Judge ruled "He (Hegazy) can believe whatever he wants in his heart, but on paper he can't convert." He is the first Egyptian Muslim convert to Christianity to seek official recognition of his conversion from the Egyptian Government.[93]
In February 2009, a second case came to court, of convert to Christianity Maher Ahmad El-Mo’otahssem Bellah El-Gohary, whose effort to officially convert to Christianity, faced opposing lawyers who advocated he be convicted of "apostasy," or leaving Islam, and sentenced to death.
"Our rights in Egypt, as Christians or converts, are less than the rights of animals," El-Gohary said. "We are deprived of social and civil rights, deprived of our inheritance and left to the fundamentalists to be killed. Nobody bothers to investigate or care about us." El-Gohary, 56, has been attacked in the street, spat at and knocked down in his effort to win the right to officially convert. He said he and his 14-year-old daughter continue to receive death threats by text message and phone call.[94]
In 1992 Islamist militants gunned down Egyptian secularist Farag Foda. Before his death he had been declared an apostate and foe of Islam. During the trial of the murderers, Azhari scholar Muhammad al-Ghazali testified that when the state fails to punish apostates, somebody else has to do it.[95]
In April 2006, after a court case in Egypt recognized the Bahá'í Faith, members of the clergy convinced the government to appeal the court decision. One member of parliament, Gamal Akl of the opposition Muslim Brotherhood, said the Bahá'ís were infidels who should be killed on the grounds that they had changed their religion, thus ignoring the historical nature of the conversion and the fact that most living Bahá'í have not, in fact, ever been Muslim.[96]
A 2010 Pew Research Center poll showed that 84% of Egyptian Muslims believe those who leave Islam should be punished by death.[97]

[edit]Other countries

Vigilantes have killed, beaten, and threatened converts in Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, Turkey, Nigeria, Syria, Somalia, and Kenya. In November 2005, Iranian convert Ghorban Tourani was stabbed to death by a group of fanatical Muslims. In December 2005, Nigerian pastor Zacheous Habu Bu Ngwenche was attacked for allegedly hiding a convert. In January 2006, in Turkey, Kamil Kiroglu was beaten unconscious and threatened with death if he refused to deny his Christian faith and return to Islam.[72] In a highly public case, the Malaysian Federal Court did not let Lina Joy convert to Christianity in a 2-1 decision.
The Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain is the British branch of the Central Council of Ex-Muslims, who represent former Muslims who fear for their lives because they have renounced Islam. It was launched in Westminster on 22 June 2007. The Council protests against Islamic states that still punish Muslim apostates with death under the Sharia law. The Council is led by Maryam Namazie, who was awarded Secularist of the Year in 2005 and has faced death threats.[98] The British Humanist Association and National Secular Society sponsored the launch of the organisation and have supported its activities since.[99]
Ehsan Jami, co-founder of The Central Committee for Ex-Muslims in the Netherlands has received several death threats, and due to the amount of threats it's members received, the Committee was dismantled.[citation needed]
A 2010 poll by Pew Research Center showed that 86% of Muslims in Jordan, 30% in Indonesia, 76% in Pakistan, 6% in Lebanon and 51% of Nigerian Muslims agree with death penalty for leaving Islam.[100]

But in most Muslim countries the interpretation of the Sharia law makes it officially illegal to abandon Islam and convert to another religion. In Egypt, and the Gulf states, there is official punishment for converting to Christianity.

Turkey is an exception thanks to the separation of state and religion, but in practice, those who convert to Christianity in Turkey, are often discouraged from doing so by invoking another, seemingly unrelated law, which makes it a crime to insult the nation and state, as religion is also attached to national identity. (This looks like a contradiction in a country that legally separates religion from state, but the law about national identity is vague and it is often used this way.)

But my whole point is that these attitudes that use force to discourage apostasy, are not simply due to tyrannical regimes that impose conformity to certain religious laws. In many cases the majority of the Muslim population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

As I stated before Qur'an does not directly impose punishment for apostasy, but many religious laws that are considered inflexible, certainly do so, and the majority of the adherents to Islam consider this to be the correct path.

It is very interesting that the Ottoman implementation of Sharia (to be more exact, the attitudes of the Ottomans towards non-Muslims) was far better than the current modern Turkey where there is official separation of religion and state. The Ottoman Empire was very tolerant to not only Jews but also Christians initially, and this was the real secret of the Ottoman expansion, where many Christian Europeans switched to the Ottoman side because the feudal Christian rulers were treating them worse than the Muslim Ottomans. In fact the extra tax non-Muslims paid in the Ottoman tax was often lower than the brutal back-breaking taxes the Christians had to pay to their feudal Christian masters, which more than encouraged many Europeans to join the Ottoman Empire.

Thus it's all the interpretation.

[Ibrahim]

In any case, in most Islamic societies, the majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

Then why isn't it?

In practice it is illegal, as far as the social punishment is concerned.

That isn't uniformly true, but you're also missing the point. If, as you assert, the "majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal" then why isn't it officially illegal?

Wikipedia articles won't help you with this question.

[Hoosiernorm]

They probably didn't have the ability to travel to the nearest US embassy to murder Americans directly and it's too far to travel to kill Israeli's so when your in a pinch you gotta kill what you have on hand.

The drawback on not having drone technology, you can't murder people far away by remote control.

Hey man just call in Uncle Sam, we make killing easy

[Ibrahim]

They probably didn't have the ability to travel to the nearest US embassy to murder Americans directly and it's too far to travel to kill Israeli's so when your in a pinch you gotta kill what you have on hand.

The drawback on not having drone technology, you can't murder people far away by remote control.

Hey man just call in Uncle Sam, we make killing easy

No need to call you in, you're already killing people every day.

[HAL9000]

In any case, in most Islamic societies, the majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

Then why isn't it?

In practice it is illegal, as far as the social punishment is concerned.

That isn't uniformly true, but you're also missing the point. If, as you assert, the "majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal" then why isn't it officially illegal?

Wikipedia articles won't help you with this question.

The Wikipedia articles show that in most Islamic countries there is official punishment for those who try to abandon Islam and convert to another religion.

In Islamic lands where it is not officially illegal, it is often that way because they try to be tolerant but they are unable to do so in practice. But it is not the government or the official appearance, but the attitude of the people that counts. As I said, the official Ottoman system was the Sharia law, but the attitude was more tolerant towards non-Muslims at that time than the current modern Turkey, which is theoretically a secular state.

So the appearances and official forms are not enough to get the big picture.

In any case, in most of the prominent Islamic countries, there are severe legal barriers to bringing in or publishing copies of the Christian Bible or to make Christian propaganda. In most of the Islamic world, it is almost impossible to obtain a government permit to build a Church. I am not in favor of Christianity but in principle, with the exception of Switzerland, in almost all of the Western world you can easily get a permit to build a Mosque. Some reciprocity would be nice, let's forget the formalities. The legality and technical details is not the issue, it's the attitude of the people that counts.

[Ibrahim]

In any case, in most Islamic societies, the majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

Then why isn't it?

In practice it is illegal, as far as the social punishment is concerned.

That isn't uniformly true, but you're also missing the point. If, as you assert, the "majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal" then why isn't it officially illegal?

Wikipedia articles won't help you with this question.

The Wikipedia articles show that in most Islamic countries there is official punishment for those who try to abandon Islam and convert to another religion.

This is a false statement. The portion of the article you quoted lists six countries, one of which is Taliban-era Afghanistan and another is Iran, both theocracies, and a third is Saudi Arabia, a country dominated by Wahhabism. The Algerian example refers to attempting to convert people, not converting, the Turkish entry lists several terrorists/criminal activities, not any law or popular support for a law.

So you're four out of six countries in your own supplied article, and somehow you claim that this represents "most Islamic countries?" Try to confine your claims to what is at least remotely believable.

In Islamic lands where it is not officially illegal, it is often that way because they try to be tolerant but they are unable to do so in practice. But it is not the government or the official appearance, but the attitude of the people that counts.

This is the point you keep deliberately avoiding. If, as you claim, the majority want a law then why wouldn't they simply have one instead of resorting to unofficial enforcement, which you claim is a majority position? You don't really have any evidence to support your claim that the majority of people want such a law, you only repeat the claim.

[Marcus]

The Suffering Church

Simply type "persecuted church" or "suffering church" or "muslim persecution of christians" into Google . . .

[Ibrahim]

The Suffering Church

Simply type "persecuted church" or "suffering church" or "muslim persecution of christians" into Google . . .

Yeah, there are some very bad examples. Lots of bag things happen. Likewise, read up of Settlers pelting Palestinian Muslims and Christians with rocks. Oh, and because I can't go a single thread without pointing it out, those MADE IN THE USA hellfire missiles blowing up weddings and funerals. Arguably some disrespect for a religious occasion when you blast all the congregants into paste.

[Jnalum Persicum]

.

Except Ibrahim, all others on this thread and board, regarding Islam, either are illiterate or follow an agenda to propagate rubbish re Islam

Islam, unlike Judaism and Christianity, validates Judaism and Christianity as equal religions (or same religion as Islam) .. Moses and Jesus are messengers of (same) G_D in Islam, pre-dominating Mohammed

Only difference is, Islam says Mohammed is the last Prophet , replacing Moses and Jesus

Islam considers itself as continuation of Judaism and Christianity .. latest edition is Islam

In that sense, Islam and Muslims CAN NOT talk derogatorily about Judaism or Christianity .. anybody saying otherwise is either illiterate or has an agenda to beat on Islam


.

[Marcus]

Except Ibrahim, all others on this thread and board, regarding Islam, either are illiterate or follow an agenda to propagate rubbish re Islam

Islam, unlike Judaism and Christianity, validates Judaism and Christianity as equal religions (or same religion as Islam) .. Moses and Jesus are messengers of (same) G_D in Islam, pre-dominating Mohammed

Only difference is, Islam says Mohammed is the last Prophet , replacing Moses and Jesus

Islam considers itself as continuation of Judaism and Christianity .. latest edition is Islam

In that sense, Islam and Muslims CAN NOT talk derogatorily about Judaism or Christianity .. anybody saying otherwise is either illiterate or has an agenda to beat on Islam .

Gotta disagree, ALI. No one here is denigrating Islam itself. What's at issue here is the behavior of individual Muslims in contradiction of Islam.

Hans nailed it—the problem isn't Islam, the problem is Muslims. Christianity has taken its fair share of a ration of lavender over the behavior of Christians in contradiction of Christian doctrine and teaching. Past time for Muslims to man up and take their share of crap for what they do in contradiction of the Prophet.

[Ibrahim]

Past time for Muslims to man up and take their share of crap for what they do in contradiction of the Prophet.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean. The people doing the decapitating or terror attacks are quite proud of their actions. So too the Settlers or the Western soldiers engaged in their trade. The violent and/or extreme readily take responsibility for and defend their beliefs. Likewise, when I or others describe political explanations or theological arguments against these things they are doing the same.

Who exactly is supposed to "man up," and how?

[HAL9000]

.

Except Ibrahim, all others on this thread and board, regarding Islam, either are illiterate or follow an agenda to propagate rubbish re Islam

Islam, unlike Judaism and Christianity, validates Judaism and Christianity as equal religions (or same religion as Islam) .. Moses and Jesus are messengers of (same) G_D in Islam, pre-dominating Mohammed

Only difference is, Islam says Mohammed is the last Prophet , replacing Moses and Jesus

Islam considers itself as continuation of Judaism and Christianity .. latest edition is Islam

In that sense, Islam and Muslims CAN NOT talk derogatorily about Judaism or Christianity .. anybody saying otherwise is either illiterate or has an agenda to beat on Islam


.

Just as many Islamic scholars say, I would also like to see Islam as a continuation or at least a relative of Judaism, but Ibrahim insisted in the other forum that Judaism and Islam are not related despite many references to Judaism/Jews in Islam. His goal is to make Judaism different and unrelated so that he can feel superior.

[Ibrahim]

.

Except Ibrahim, all others on this thread and board, regarding Islam, either are illiterate or follow an agenda to propagate rubbish re Islam

Islam, unlike Judaism and Christianity, validates Judaism and Christianity as equal religions (or same religion as Islam) .. Moses and Jesus are messengers of (same) G_D in Islam, pre-dominating Mohammed

Only difference is, Islam says Mohammed is the last Prophet , replacing Moses and Jesus

Islam considers itself as continuation of Judaism and Christianity .. latest edition is Islam

In that sense, Islam and Muslims CAN NOT talk derogatorily about Judaism or Christianity .. anybody saying otherwise is either illiterate or has an agenda to beat on Islam


.

Just as many Islamic scholars say, I would also like to see Islam as a continuation or at least a relative of Judaism, but Ibrahim insisted in the other forum that Judaism and Islam are not related despite many references to Judaism/Jews in Islam. His goal is to make Judaism different and unrelated so that he can feel superior.

This is a lie, and never made any such claim. Provide evidence or admit your lie and apologize.

[HAL9000]

In any case, in most Islamic societies, the majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal to convert to another religion.

Then why isn't it?

In practice it is illegal, as far as the social punishment is concerned.

That isn't uniformly true, but you're also missing the point. If, as you assert, the "majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal" then why isn't it officially illegal?

Wikipedia articles won't help you with this question.

The Wikipedia articles show that in most Islamic countries there is official punishment for those who try to abandon Islam and convert to another religion.

This is a false statement. The portion of the article you quoted lists six countries, one of which is Taliban-era Afghanistan and another is Iran, both theocracies, and a third is Saudi Arabia, a country dominated by Wahhabism. The Algerian example refers to attempting to convert people, not converting, the Turkish entry lists several terrorists/criminal activities, not any law or popular support for a law.

So you're four out of six countries in your own supplied article, and somehow you claim that this represents "most Islamic countries?" Try to confine your claims to what is at least remotely believable.

In Islamic lands where it is not officially illegal, it is often that way because they try to be tolerant but they are unable to do so in practice. But it is not the government or the official appearance, but the attitude of the people that counts.

This is the point you keep deliberately avoiding. If, as you claim, the majority want a law then why wouldn't they simply have one instead of resorting to unofficial enforcement, which you claim is a majority position? You don't really have any evidence to support your claim that the majority of people want such a law, you only repeat the claim.

In the Persian Gulf Arab states, which one is the most prominent Sunni majority state in terms of power and influence? Saudi Arabia. But the smaller states except Iraq also have Sharia laws that discourage conversion to other religions. Iraq was secular under Saddam, but over there too religious fundamentalism discourages non-Muslim behavior.

Egypt is the most populous Arab state, and there is strong conservative discrimination against Christianity, and conversion is not approved.

YOU mention some Islamic states where conversion to Christianity is as acceptable as Conversion to Islam is in North America and EU. Which Islamic state? Pakistan?

And in Turkey the secular laws were imposed by force after the republic was established, but most people are nostalgic towards Sharia, and even secular people look at converts to Christianity as potential treason, collaboration with foreign powers, etc. The statistical fact is that the opinion polls in Turkey indicate very negative opinions against Christians. When I speak to Turkish friends, I strongly remind them that I am Jewish, which is to my advantage because despite the current new wave of antisemitism that is in part due to the wars in the Middle East, at least most Turks still remember that Jews were loyal to the end in the Ottoman Empire, and this greatly mitigates negative reactions when I talk to Turkish people. (I mean real Turks who have honor.)

[Ibrahim]

In practice it is illegal, as far as the social punishment is concerned.

That isn't uniformly true, but you're also missing the point. If, as you assert, the "majority of the population is in favor of making it illegal" then why isn't it officially illegal?

Wikipedia articles won't help you with this question.

The Wikipedia articles show that in most Islamic countries there is official punishment for those who try to abandon Islam and convert to another religion.

This is a false statement. The portion of the article you quoted lists six countries, one of which is Taliban-era Afghanistan and another is Iran, both theocracies, and a third is Saudi Arabia, a country dominated by Wahhabism. The Algerian example refers to attempting to convert people, not converting, the Turkish entry lists several terrorists/criminal activities, not any law or popular support for a law.

So you're four out of six countries in your own supplied article, and somehow you claim that this represents "most Islamic countries?" Try to confine your claims to what is at least remotely believable.

In Islamic lands where it is not officially illegal, it is often that way because they try to be tolerant but they are unable to do so in practice. But it is not the government or the official appearance, but the attitude of the people that counts.

This is the point you keep deliberately avoiding. If, as you claim, the majority want a law then why wouldn't they simply have one instead of resorting to unofficial enforcement, which you claim is a majority position? You don't really have any evidence to support your claim that the majority of people want such a law, you only repeat the claim.

In the Persian Gulf Arab states, which one is the most prominent Sunni majority state in terms of power and influence? Saudi Arabia. But the smaller states except Iraq also have Sharia laws that discourage conversion to other religions. Iraq was secular under Saddam, but over there too religious fundamentalism discourages non-Muslim behavior.

Egypt is the most populous Arab state, and there is strong conservative discrimination against Christianity, and conversion is not approved.

YOU mention some Islamic states where conversion to Christianity is as acceptable as Conversion to Islam is in North America and EU. Which Islamic state? Pakistan?

And in Turkey the secular laws were imposed by force after the republic was established, but most people are nostalgic towards Sharia, and even secular people look at converts to Christianity as potential treason, collaboration with foreign powers, etc. The statistical fact is that the opinion polls in Turkey indicate very negative opinions against Christians. When I speak to Turkish friends, I strongly remind them that I am Jewish, which is to my advantage because despite the current new wave of antisemitism that is in part due to the wars in the Middle East, at least most Turks still remember that Jews were loyal to the end in the Ottoman Empire, and this greatly mitigates negative reactions when I talk to Turkish people. (I mean real Turks who have honor.)

That's a long-winded way of admitting that I'm correct and that you mis-stated what your own supplied evidence said. Plus some random bullshit about your insight into Turkey, despite the fact that Turkish law and history also contradicts your assertions.

[monster_gardener]

Oh come on, like you don't sometimes throw stuff up with the express purpose of pissing in Mr. Perfect's Corn Flakes. We're all entitled to our vices occasionally.

Yes, but are you as quiet as a mouse?

Thank you VERY Much for your Post, Ymix.



CLEVER!