Arab Jews (or Jewish Arabs)

[HAL9000]

Israel is not, and has no intention of, returning to the 1947 borders, and nothing will erase the historical fact that the state of Israel, in any form, is built on land stolen from Palestinians.

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

Ibrahim, is this really your statement in the new forum ? Or is this a computer error in the servers that inserted another person's message under your name?

Is this statement historically inaccurate? There is no line you can draw around any piece of present-day Israeli territory and say "no Palestinians were ejected from this area, it is, and always way, %100 Jewish." So of course Israel is constituted of land stolen from Palestinians.



.

But it confirms your previously denied equivalent statement that all of Israel is a big settlement. Previously you did not admit saying that you think all of Israel is stolen. Not a meter of land is not stolen in your view, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I just wanted exact confirmation of your view.

[Ibrahim]

Israel is not, and has no intention of, returning to the 1947 borders, and nothing will erase the historical fact that the state of Israel, in any form, is built on land stolen from Palestinians.

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

Ibrahim, is this really your statement in the new forum ? Or is this a computer error in the servers that inserted another person's message under your name?

Is this statement historically inaccurate? There is no line you can draw around any piece of present-day Israeli territory and say "no Palestinians were ejected from this area, it is, and always way, %100 Jewish." So of course Israel is constituted of land stolen from Palestinians.



.

But it confirms your previously denied equivalent statement that all of Israel is a big settlement. Previously you did not admit saying that you think all of Israel is stolen. Not a meter of land is not stolen in your view, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I just wanted exact confirmation of your view.

It doesn't confirm any previous quotes you attributed to me, and I'm bored of having this argument with you about your exact-quotes-recalled-from-a-year-ago-so-I'm-an-anti-Semite routine. Post that lavender in your thread in Hell or shut up about it.

Address the other, relevant issues under discussion here. Is there any part of Israel that never had any Palestinians ejected from it? If not then when are we talking about?

[HAL9000]

Israel is not, and has no intention of, returning to the 1947 borders, and nothing will erase the historical fact that the state of Israel, in any form, is built on land stolen from Palestinians.

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

Ibrahim, is this really your statement in the new forum ? Or is this a computer error in the servers that inserted another person's message under your name?

Is this statement historically inaccurate? There is no line you can draw around any piece of present-day Israeli territory and say "no Palestinians were ejected from this area, it is, and always way, %100 Jewish." So of course Israel is constituted of land stolen from Palestinians.



.

But it confirms your previously denied equivalent statement that all of Israel is a big settlement. Previously you did not admit saying that you think all of Israel is stolen. Not a meter of land is not stolen in your view, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I just wanted exact confirmation of your view.

It doesn't confirm any previous quotes you attributed to me, and I'm bored of having this argument with you about your exact-quotes-recalled-from-a-year-ago-so-I'm-an-anti-Semite routine. Post that lavender in your thread in Hell or shut up about it.

Address the other, relevant issues under discussion here. Is there any part of Israel that never had any Palestinians ejected from it? If not then when are we talking about?

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know. New quote is even better than old quote, that's why I actually stopped worrying about old quotes.

[Ibrahim]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

[HAL9000]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

But the theft of Israelis is more intense for you to scream so much in comparison to Canada.

And so I am guilty until proven innocent? Why do I have to prove to you with absolute exactness which neighborhoods of Israel do not have expelled Arabs? What if I refuse to worry about you? Why are you so important? (I am not).

By the way, I do think many parts of Israel are stolen, but many parts are not. As my family also lived there in the Ottoman Empire in Jerusalem and also in Safed, at a time where the geography was not so populated as it is now.

[Ibrahim]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

And so I am guilty until proven innocent? Why do I have to prove to you with absolute exactness which neighborhoods of Israel do not have expelled Arabs? What if I refuse to worry about you? Why are you so important? (I am not).

It's a simple question. Don't answer it if you don't want to.

[HAL9000]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

And so I am guilty until proven innocent? Why do I have to prove to you with absolute exactness which neighborhoods of Israel do not have expelled Arabs? What if I refuse to worry about you? Why are you so important? (I am not).

It's a simple question. Don't answer it if you don't want to.

I answered up to my abilities above. One message above before you answered when I was editing it.

I just wanted to know your position, that was all, namely if you think that all of Israel is stolen or not, which you now made it clear that you think it is. Fine. This means that you think that Israel deserves little sympathy for its existence. That much is clear.

[Ibrahim]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

And so I am guilty until proven innocent? Why do I have to prove to you with absolute exactness which neighborhoods of Israel do not have expelled Arabs? What if I refuse to worry about you? Why are you so important? (I am not).

It's a simple question. Don't answer it if you don't want to.

I answered up to my abilities above. One message above before you answered when I was editing it.

I just wanted to know your position, that was all, namely if you think that all of Israel is stolen or not, which you now made it clear that you think it is. Fine. This means that you think that Israel deserves little sympathy for its existence. That much is clear.

But that's not what I said, is it?

[HAL9000]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

And so I am guilty until proven innocent? Why do I have to prove to you with absolute exactness which neighborhoods of Israel do not have expelled Arabs? What if I refuse to worry about you? Why are you so important? (I am not).

It's a simple question. Don't answer it if you don't want to.

As I said before, I know from direct knowledge thanks to my father's relatives in the Ottoman Empire, living in parts of what is now Israel, where there were at least some Jewish neighborhoods from which no Arabs could have been expelled since these neighborhoods were densely packed by Jews only.

And since you are the one who made the accusatory statement that all of Israel is stolen, then let me ask you to prove that there is no square meter of Israel where Arabs were not kicked out. Unless you think you have the right to make people guilty until proven innocent, you should answer this, just as you claimed that the majority of Israelis want to squeeze the Arabs in West Bank to ultimately annex the place and make it legitimate. The majority intention is still not there.

[Ibrahim]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

And so I am guilty until proven innocent? Why do I have to prove to you with absolute exactness which neighborhoods of Israel do not have expelled Arabs? What if I refuse to worry about you? Why are you so important? (I am not).

It's a simple question. Don't answer it if you don't want to.

As I said before, I know from direct knowledge thanks to my father's relatives in the Ottoman Empire, living in parts of what is now Israel, where there were at least some Jewish neighborhoods from which no Arabs could have been expelled since these neighborhoods were densely packed by Jews only.

You can't build a country out of neighborhoods. Nobody is saying that there was one Jew and one Arab per each square meter, but there is no larger swathe of territory, nothing larger than a village, which did not have Arabs ejected from it.

And since you are the one who made the accusatory statement that all of Israel is stolen,

Rather, I was stating an historical fact. What is your alternative narrative for how modern Israel came into being?

A lot of people live in countries that they stole from other people and they don't worry about it as much, though that's perhaps because the events aren't within living memory.

[HAL9000]

The thing you confirm is that you think all of Israel is stolen. That's what I wanted to know.

Ok. Do you think all of Israel is stolen? If not, what parts are not stolen and why?

Besides don't take it personally. The country I live in was all stolen too.

And so I am guilty until proven innocent? Why do I have to prove to you with absolute exactness which neighborhoods of Israel do not have expelled Arabs? What if I refuse to worry about you? Why are you so important? (I am not).

It's a simple question. Don't answer it if you don't want to.

As I said before, I know from direct knowledge thanks to my father's relatives in the Ottoman Empire, living in parts of what is now Israel, where there were at least some Jewish neighborhoods from which no Arabs could have been expelled since these neighborhoods were densely packed by Jews only.

You can't build a country out of neighborhoods. Nobody is saying that there was one Jew and one Arab per each square meter, but there is no larger swathe of territory, nothing larger than a village, which did not have Arabs ejected from it.

And since you are the one who made the accusatory statement that all of Israel is stolen,

Rather, I was stating an historical fact. What is your alternative narrative for how modern Israel came into being?

A lot of people live in countries that they stole from other people and they don't worry about it as much, though that's perhaps because the events aren't within living memory.

I claim that the tiny Jewish "villages" that you are talking about, can be combined into a small and symbolic enclave of Jews to be called Israel, but you say that since even every sub-region of Israel contains at least one expelled Arab, then even the regions where Jews were the majority are stolen according to your definition. Thus even a tiny village where Jews were majority that is declared as Israel is stolen land by your definition.

If this is the case, then the expelled Jewish minorities from Arab lands can claim ALL of the Arab countries since there is no subregion of Arab countries where a single Jew was not expelled from.

If most of the land in the world is stolen in the past, why do you so strongly emphasize the Israeli theft relative to the horrors that are going on elsewhere? Not that I justify the extra land Israel captured after 1947, but most of the expulsion of Arabs came from outside the 1947 borders, the amount of injustice was relatively low from within the 1947 borders, despite the few thousands expelled from inside the 1947 borders and despite the few right wing Israeli soldiers (without orders) who raped a few Palestinian women and killed them afterwards. You can be sure that in neighboring regions in Lebanon and Jordan ethnically slightly connected with Palestinians, many Jews were also deported.

Here is a statistical analysis of the recent Gaza war: In this war, we the Israelis threw thousands of bombs and fired perhaps a million bullets, but despite all the intensity of the war, even though even killing one person is bad in principle, we still killed "only" 1,166 Palestinians, in this war. Compare this with the nearby violence among neighboring Arab countries right now. THIS is restraint. If Greece tried to fire rockets on Istanbul to force Turkey to relinquish some territory (formerly Greek) near Edirne, then the Turkish Air Force would totally destroy all of Athens and perhaps the Turkish army would even occupy Salonica as punishment. Well, you might say the territorial dispute between Greece and Turkey is very old, but this is because Turkey won the war, the Greeks don't see it that way perhaps, maybe they have not forgotten. So if Turkey shows military weakness and if Greece manages to get stronger than Turkey, then Greece will invade Turkey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war

When you said that most Israelis don't want a two-state solution and that they just want to squeeze Palestinians in the West Bank to annex it in the end, this was the lie of Palestinians you are just repeating. Only a small minority of Israelis are this extreme. But until the Arab world is ready for a serious two-stage agreement, most Israelis definitely want to keep the West Bank militarily occupied.

[Ibrahim]

Rather, I was stating an historical fact. What is your alternative narrative for how modern Israel came into being?

A lot of people live in countries that they stole from other people and they don't worry about it as much, though that's perhaps because the events aren't within living memory.

I claim that the tiny Jewish "villages" that you are talking about, can be combined into a small and symbolic enclave of Jews to be called Israel, but you say that since even every sub-region of Israel contains at least one expelled Arab, then even the regions where Jews were the majority are stolen according to your definition. Thus even a tiny village where Jews were majority that is declared as Israel is stolen land by your definition.

If this is the case, then the expelled Jewish minorities from Arab lands can claim ALL of the Arab countries since there is no subregion of Arab countries where a single Jew was not expelled from.

Rather an absurd comparison, given the relative numbers involved. But I already stated that those Jews expelled from other countries were wronged. So essentially you agree with me that Palestinians were equally wronged in their removal from what is today Israel, or most of Israel. I already asked you what lines you would draw that you don't think was ever stolen.

If most of the land in the world is stolen in the past, why do you so strongly emphasize the Israeli theft relative to the horrors that are going on elsewhere?

You raised the issue. Besides, unlike, say, the theft of America from Native Americans the theft of Palesitinian territory is within living memory, and furthermore the issues between Palestians and Israelis are far from settled. It is much more relevant than, say, the Aryans crossing the Khyber and invading India.

Not that I justify

In general terms I'm not even addressing the morality of it. Israel is constituted of land stolen from Palestinians, likewise land was stolen from Jews who moved to Israel from other Arab countries. Simply establishing those facts before discussing anything further. Who wrong whom how much and when is another matter, and probably interminably complex.

If Greece tried to fire rockets on Istanbul to force Turkey to relinquish some territory (formerly Greek) near Edirne, then the Turkish Air Force would totally destroy all of Athens and perhaps the Turkish army would even occupy Salonica as punishment.

I don't see how stating unrelated hypothetical scenarios as though they were certain facts is useful here.

When you said that most Israelis don't want a two-state solution and that they just want to squeeze Palestinians in the West Bank to annex it in the end, this was the lie of Palestinians you are just repeating.

Not at all. It's based on what I've been reading about the increasingly negative attitudes of Israeli youth towards Arabs (Christian or Muslim), such as the Israeli poll is cited earlier, and other interviews, videos, articles I have read/seen etc. Are some of those sources either Palestinian or sympathetic to Palestinians? Yes. Does that invalidate them? No. Besides, they didn't coerce Israeli Jews into saying that Arabs are dogs or that they wouldn't have one in their house. That is a growing attitude in Israel today, regardless of who reports it.

Only a small minority of Israelis are this extreme. But until the Arab world is ready for a serious two-stage agreement, most Israelis definitely want to keep the West Bank militarily occupied.

You have already explained this unreachable scenario to justify unending occupation. I think this apartheid policy will eventually prove a disastrous failure.

[HAL9000]

[

Only a small minority of Israelis are this extreme. But until the Arab world is ready for a serious two-stage agreement, most Israelis definitely want to keep the West Bank militarily occupied.

You have already explained this unreachable scenario to justify unending occupation. I think this apartheid policy will eventually prove a disastrous failure.

Unreachable scenario being the acceptance of a two-state solution by Palestinians?

But know this: If the Jewish Israelis convert to Islam tomorrow, then the intensity of the opposition against Israel's 1947 borders or even 1967 borders will diminish significantly. This is because in addition to territorial grievances, this is also a religious war, where various suras of the Qur'an concerning the intrinsic nature of Jews, are invoked to enhance the resistance against Israel's existence at the metaphysical level. Now if Jewish Israelis become Muslims, then only the territorial component will remain, and the possibility of a mutual agreement will increase dramatically.

If Muslim Arabs from Egypt instead of Mizrahi and Askhkenazic Jews had settled in Israel (not called Israel), the degree of resistance in the Arab world (outside Palestine) and Iran would have been only a small fraction of the current level. Thus Antisemitism is an integral part of the argument here. In particular, you would have been a lot less interested in the rights of the Palestinians if the settlers were Egyptian Muslims, even though the Palestinians would have been wronged in equal measure.

[monster_gardener]

Hebrew tribe after the Babylon episode, mostly settled in Persia, but some also in Arabia and Caucasus and central Asia .. after 1000s of years, they (mostly) dissolved in the local population but kept their faith (Judaism) .. in that sense Mizrahi is a fancy name for Arabs of Jewish faith ..

Similar is Sephardim, Iberian Jews .. in Toledo, Spanish shopkeeper explained he originally Jewish, and Iberian Jews in reality Persian Jews that moved to Andalusia when Andalusia was Muslim civilization and needed artisans.

Descendants of Hebrew tribe living in all ME, Arabia, Mediterranean coast, Persia, central Asia, Caucasus .. all .. lived in harmony and peace like any other group .. there was no "specific" discrimination specifically towards them .. they had become one of ME people .. if hardship or bad things happened, it happened to everybody including them

That is why ME Jews did not want and did not volunteer and were not pioneer and early adapters of Israel and Zionism

Things changed when "non-Hebrew" Russian, Khazari, East European and European Jews were introduced into this .. these non-Hebrew Jews, were, for reason not subject of this thread, rejected by Russians, Europeans, west .. and .. they came with the idea that they would want a place of their own .. Middle Eastern, Arab, Persian Jews were happy where they were and did not want anything to do with Israel

Israel was established by Polish and Estonian and and Jewish .. antagonism with Arab world started as Israel sold out to colonial powers for protection .. ME Jews found themselves between a rock and a hard place .. Persian Jews (80% of Hebrew tribe Jewish population) did not migrate to Israel, they stayed in Iran or moved to USA

What could happen now, is, Ashkenazim Jews could move out of Israel (they all have their own countries passports, US, German, French, etc etc) and Arab Jews left in Israel .. that already happening .. almost all South African Jews (Ashkenazim) moved to Canada, non to Israel .. 80% of Russian Jews moved to US

Down the road, could happen, that Israel becomes an Arab Jews homeland .. that would make it easier to have a "one state solution" .. Palestine and Arab Jews state .. seems already happening



.

[Emphasis added by HAL 9000]


Arabs of Jewish faith. Excellent terminology. That's exactly what I meant. And this brings us to what I am going to explain below:

And since the Arab revolts can traditionally be very violent and the world is very much used to it, let's proceed: If the Arab nations who oppressed those Arab tribes of Mizrahi affiliation do not treat the Mizrahis fairly, there can be a revolt. The revolt is not always 50 - 50. Just because only 700,000 Arabs of Mizrahi tribe affiliation would have starved in the deserts had Israel not accepted them, it does not directly follow that the Arab revolt of the Mizrahi Jews would allow them to get even with only 700,000 of their oppressors. Sometimes the revenge can be more violent, it can even be 100 to 1. Thus it is possible for the Arab tribe of Mizrahi affiliation to get revenge in a more drastic way, while getting back their lands. Recall that in the Middle East, people are not materialistic like the Western nations, sometimes they don't even accept monetary compensation or land, but they just insist on taking blood to compensate for the insult. Very Middle Eastern. So the Iraqis, Egyptians, Syrians, Libyans, etc, should watch out.

As for the Ashkenazim in Israel, one problem is that many of them are intermarried with the Mizrahi Jews. So after the Mizrahis recover their looted land in those Arab countries, they can also be located there as well, not necessarily in Western countries.

But note that some DNA tests show that Palestinians share some very unique DNA not only with Mizrahi Jews but also Ashkenazic Jews. But at the same times, the non-Palestinian Arabs don't have this quality. This is incredible. And note that not all Mizrahi Jews are from other Arab countries, but many of them, were also residing in Palestine/Israel long before Crusades, so many thousands of Mizrahi Arabs (a minority still) still have the right to live in Israel. And to make the matters more complex, many of these local Palestinian Mizrahi Arabs were also intermarried with Ashkenazic Jews, making a mixture of blood.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Hal9000

But IMVHO..........

To quote Robot B-9............

This .........

And since the Arab revolts can traditionally be very violent and the world is very much used to it, let's proceed:

and This

As for the Ashkenazim in Israel, one problem is that many of them are intermarried with the Mizrahi Jews. So after the Mizrahis recover their looted land in those Arab countries, they can also be located there as well, not necessarily in Western countries.

That Does Not Compute!.........

Danger Will Robinson/Cohen........

ieuBkWHfCuc

Maybe better to get Lost in Space than fall into the hands of an angry Arab mob/Al Queda Terrorists..........

[Ibrahim]

[

Only a small minority of Israelis are this extreme. But until the Arab world is ready for a serious two-stage agreement, most Israelis definitely want to keep the West Bank militarily occupied.

You have already explained this unreachable scenario to justify unending occupation. I think this apartheid policy will eventually prove a disastrous failure.

Unreachable scenario being the acceptance of a two-state solution by Palestinians?

You said that Palestinians would have to organize some kind of pan-Arab pledge not to attack Israel in the future. Why should Palestinian self-determination hinge on forging agreements with Jordan or Egypt?

But know this: If the Jewish Israelis convert to Islam tomorrow, then the intensity of the opposition against Israel's 1947 borders or even 1967 borders will diminish significantly.

You keep stating all these different hypothetical scenarios as facts. I don't see what purpose it serves.

This is because in addition to territorial grievances, this is also a religious war, where various suras of the Qur'an concerning the intrinsic nature of Jews, are invoked to enhance the resistance against Israel's existence at the metaphysical level.

The Quran, and Islamic history generally, offers many examples of Jewish and Muslim coexistence, so this claim is false. Consider that our own various claims are at cross-purposes here. On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it?

[monster_gardener]

[

Only a small minority of Israelis are this extreme. But until the Arab world is ready for a serious two-stage agreement, most Israelis definitely want to keep the West Bank militarily occupied.

You have already explained this unreachable scenario to justify unending occupation. I think this apartheid policy will eventually prove a disastrous failure.

Unreachable scenario being the acceptance of a two-state solution by Palestinians?

You said that Palestinians would have to organize some kind of pan-Arab pledge not to attack Israel in the future. Why should Palestinian self-determination hinge on forging agreements with Jordan or Egypt?

But know this: If the Jewish Israelis convert to Islam tomorrow, then the intensity of the opposition against Israel's 1947 borders or even 1967 borders will diminish significantly.

You keep stating all these different hypothetical scenarios as facts. I don't see what purpose it serves.

This is because in addition to territorial grievances, this is also a religious war, where various suras of the Qur'an concerning the intrinsic nature of Jews, are invoked to enhance the resistance against Israel's existence at the metaphysical level.

The Quran, and Islamic history generally, offers many examples of Jewish and Muslim coexistence, so this claim is false. Consider that our own various claims are at cross-purposes here. On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it?

Thank You Very Much for Your Post, Ibrahim.

On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it

Both.....

If the Jews and other infidels are willing to be good Dhimmis, obey the discriminatory rules and submit to getting slapped around when they pay their Dhimmi taxes, yeah, they can live and resign themselves to slow decline as oppression based conversions reduce their numbers as seen across the Middle East.........

And sometimes WORSE!

Take the example of the Armenians.........

Lived for quite some time under the Turks but look what happened in the end..GENOCIDE as the Turks let their Bully Boyz the Kurds have their Evil Way with the Armenians.

BTW... It's NOT Thousands of years........ Not yet two thousand years since Mohamed had to flee from Mecca to Medina..............

[HAL9000]

But know this: If the Jewish Israelis convert to Islam tomorrow, then the intensity of the opposition against Israel's 1947 borders or even 1967 borders will diminish significantly.

1) You keep stating all these different hypothetical scenarios as facts. I don't see what purpose it serves

This is because in addition to territorial grievances, this is also a religious war, where various suras of the Qur'an concerning the intrinsic nature of Jews, are invoked to enhance the resistance against Israel's existence at the metaphysical level.

2) The Quran, and Islamic history generally, offers many examples of Jewish and Muslim coexistence, so this claim is false. Consider that our own various claims are at cross-purposes here. On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it?

{Emphasis added by HAL 9000]

1) My point was that IF Egyptian Muslims had settled in Palestine in the same exact configuration instead of Jews coming there, then, outside Palestine, there would have been a lot less opposition and outrage in the Islamic world. And I am sure that you would also have been far less concerned if the perpetrators were Muslims. Somehow, the fact that the injustice is done by the Jews is more offensive.

2) We don't need to refer to the Qur'an to document coexistence between Jews and Muslims, the fact that I am alive is proof, since Turks saved my family from Europeans. And Azerbaijan is the best example, where Jews were hiding the Azeris in Baku from the Armenians in 1919 (Armenians executed Jews as revenge for saving Azeris). By the way, Enver Pasha managed to stop the massacre of Azeris by Armenians in Baku in 1919.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guba_mass_grave

Here is an Azeri representative giving a lecture in English about the solidarity between Jews and Azeris. He gave this lecture in Israel, and the English part where he start to speak starts after 50 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft6oWjeb ... ure=relmfu

But the current problem is that a very negative interpretation of the Quran is being used by many Arab nations. In some versions of Islam, it is writen that at the end of time some Jews are to be killed. This is interpreted as all Jews by many now, especially in Hamas and also in Egypt. They also use the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf as best sellers. A Germanized version of Islam, where East meets West. This one sided interpretation is what is being applied now.

http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm

The Jews are to be eliminated

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.

There is a consistency in the statements in Qur'an about the Jews, Christians, unbelievers, infidels, polytheists, only a few statements are favorable. But the direct approach of whom Mohammed meant is clear from his theme of elimination and destiny for punishment.

Sura3 3:64: “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers (whom he defined as Christians in the 5th surah “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.) and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!’”

What does The true God say about cursing his people? Read Gen.12:3

Sura72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

“What, do you desire to guide him whom God has led astray? Whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way [of salvation]. They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as a friend or helper. (Arberry, Interpreted p.113)

Hadith, the body of traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu Hurayah) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews. (Sahih of Muslim, quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al Quran by Ali Akbar, Bismi Publishers 1992, p.44)

[Ibrahim]

But know this: If the Jewish Israelis convert to Islam tomorrow, then the intensity of the opposition against Israel's 1947 borders or even 1967 borders will diminish significantly.

1) You keep stating all these different hypothetical scenarios as facts. I don't see what purpose it serves

This is because in addition to territorial grievances, this is also a religious war, where various suras of the Qur'an concerning the intrinsic nature of Jews, are invoked to enhance the resistance against Israel's existence at the metaphysical level.

2) The Quran, and Islamic history generally, offers many examples of Jewish and Muslim coexistence, so this claim is false. Consider that our own various claims are at cross-purposes here. On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it?

{Emphasis added by HAL 9000]

1) My point was that IF Egyptian Muslims had settled in Palestine in the same exact configuration instead of Jews coming there

Well that didn't happen, so why do I care about your opinion of what would have happened in this hypothetical scenario (which, coincidentally, supports your argument)?

2) We don't need to refer to the Qur'an to document coexistence between Jews and Muslims,

I know, that's why I said "the Quran, and Islamic history generally."

But the current problem is that a very negative interpretation of the Quran is being used by many Arab nations.

Israel's PR problems among Arabs are due to many factors, and I don't think "negative Quranic interpretation" is the main one.

Anyway,

As for the believers, for the Jews, the Christians and the Sabeans who believe in God and the last day, and who do righteous deeds - these have their wage with the Lord. No fear shall fall upon them, nor shall they grieve.

Jews are not "disbelievers" according to the Quran, so your list of quotes is invalid. Moreover, the verse I cite above is from a later Medinian sura, so even the principle of abrogation doesn't help you here.




Also, and this doesn't really effect your argument one way or the other, that website you linked is beyond weird.

[HAL9000]

1) My point was that IF Egyptian Muslims had settled in Palestine in the same exact configuration instead of Jews coming there

Well that didn't happen, so why do I care about your opinion of what would have happened in this hypothetical scenario (which, coincidentally, supports your argument)?



.

[/quote]


It did not happen, but the fact is that had it happened, i.e. had Muslim Arabs had settled and displaced Palestinians instead of Jews, then Arab world would not have been so critical of Egyptian Muslims colonizing and depriving Palestinians as much as you are critical of the current real situation with Jews. And in particular, I am sure you would also not been so interested in this subject.

The fact that you don't care does not change the truth.



Your argument that the Suras of Quran supersede the currently fashionable antisemitic Hadiths, does not seem to help to convince Hamas and many Arab groups to change their minds, for in this kind of thinking is at the core of their beliefs.

[Jnalum Persicum]

.

On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it

Both.....

.

Monster ,

Your reasoning, views and logic, re Jews, is from a confusing assumption, not sure intentional or unconscious (although things pretty much clear)

You always refer to Jews , not differentiating between Hebrew tribe AND European and Russian converts

You use Jew as a religion to refer to an ethnic group

Yes, true, you right, Hebrew tribe lived in Palestine/Israel for 1000s of yrs

but

not so the European and Russian convert to Judaism

Conversion to Judaism (non existent in Judaism), or adaption of Judaism, pretty much a new phenomena, less than a few 100 yrs old

It would be helpful (and clarify) to refer to Hebrew tribe Jew or Russian/European Jew when historical and ancient facts are used to make a case for present situation





.

[Ibrahim]

It did not happen, but the fact is that had it happened,

Do you see the problem with this? How can a hypothetical scenario be factual?

The fact that you don't care does not change the truth.

The "truth" of a hypothetical scenario?

Your argument that the Suras of Quran supersede the currently fashionable antisemitic Hadiths, does not seem to help to convince Hamas and many Arab groups to change their minds, for in this kind of thinking is at the core of their beliefs.

You seem to think that the root of Hamas' attitude towards Israel is religious. , when clearly they have other objectives and motivations.

[monster_gardener]

.

On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it

Both.....

.

Monster ,

Your reasoning, views and logic, re Jews, is from a confusing assumption, not sure intentional or unconscious (although things pretty much clear)

You always refer to Jews , not differentiating between Hebrew tribe AND European and Russian converts

You use Jew as a religion to refer to an ethnic group

Yes, true, you right, Hebrew tribe lived in Palestine/Israel for 1000s of yrs

but

not so the European and Russian convert to Judaism

Conversion to Judaism (non existent in Judaism), or adaption of Judaism, pretty much a new phenomena, less than a few 100 yrs old

It would be helpful (and clarify) to refer to Hebrew tribe Jew or Russian/European Jew when historical and ancient facts are used to make a case for present situation





.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

Conversion to Judaism is an ancient phenomenon, with Abraham being the first convert

Jesus referred to it....... Mentioned that the Pharisees would cross land and see to make just one convert........

Later Jews quit being missionary but still accept converts who are persistent.... Smart idea when you are under the domination of semi-theocratic States Muslim and Christian that are/were bitchy about converts........ Still was a problem that occasioned persecution..........

Really conversion tends to go the other way from Jew to Christian and Muslim and secular depending on who/what is dominant.........

When there is persecution, someone claiming to be a Jew is likely to be one...........


If by adaption of Judaism, you mean sects within Judaism, that is also an ancient phenomenon, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, Samaritans, and Essenes being good examples....

For me and from what G_d is recorded as saying in the Scriptures, the meme/belief and practice is more important than the gene

It would be helpful (and clarify) to refer to Hebrew tribe Jew or Russian/European Jew when historical and ancient facts are used to make a case for present situation

Maybe but IMVHO not really. Israel as a State has the power to set its own immigration and citizen standards just as Uz, the Arab States ** and the rest of the world does.

And I am not really making a case for the present situation...... I think Israel, Uz and anyone else willing and able should be headed for the Moon and beyond or failing that somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere and/or under the sea with Ariel's family ***

One possibility might be a 3 state solution ...... Israel, HamAssistan and FATAHistan in the West Bank if Abbas can persuade the Israelis that FATAHistan won't be a rocket launching zone like HamAssistan is..........****

Though Orion Rocket Launchers could be a real solution to the problem ........ Israel with Jacob's Ladder as Earth's premier Spaceport........

What a shame that HamAssistan has the good beachfront property that could be used to set up an Arab Hong Kong/Macao/Monte Carlo complete with casinos, free trade and 1 hour temporary marriages

With mixing as seen in my clan, it really doesn't matter or possibly won't shortly*....... Without Caste Law enforcement as seen in Historic India, shortly there may be not so much difference between the Ashkenazim, the Sephardi, the Beta Israel, the Hindu Jews both light high caste and dark low caste, Chinese Jews, Japanese Jews..............


*One way or another..... Could see another Holocaust...... Nuclear this time........ Time to have Orion build Jacob's Ladder and get off this crazy planet.......

** Interesting that Israeli standards are much more liberal toward their fellow Jews than Arabs are toward their alleged Pali Arab brothers.........
For that matter AIUI states like Uz and Canada etc. are easier on the Palis than their "Arab Brothers"............

***
C8OBlq_svBY

**** To be fair to Abbas, the Penguins are an increasing part of the problem

[monster_gardener]

[

Only a small minority of Israelis are this extreme. But until the Arab world is ready for a serious two-stage agreement, most Israelis definitely want to keep the West Bank militarily occupied.

You have already explained this unreachable scenario to justify unending occupation. I think this apartheid policy will eventually prove a disastrous failure.

Unreachable scenario being the acceptance of a two-state solution by Palestinians?

But know this: If the Jewish Israelis convert to Islam tomorrow, then the intensity of the opposition against Israel's 1947 borders or even 1967 borders will diminish significantly. This is because in addition to territorial grievances, this is also a religious war, where various suras of the Qur'an concerning the intrinsic nature of Jews, are invoked to enhance the resistance against Israel's existence at the metaphysical level. Now if Jewish Israelis become Muslims, then only the territorial component will remain, and the possibility of a mutual agreement will increase dramatically.

If Muslim Arabs from Egypt instead of Mizrahi and Askhkenazic Jews had settled in Israel (not called Israel), the degree of resistance in the Arab world (outside Palestine) and Iran would have been only a small fraction of the current level. Thus Antisemitism is an integral part of the argument here. In particular, you would have been a lot less interested in the rights of the Palestinians if the settlers were Egyptian Muslims, even though the Palestinians would have been wronged in equal measure.

Thank You Very Much for your post, HAL9000.

If the Jewish Israelis convert to Islam tomorrow, then the intensity of the opposition against Israel's 1947 borders or even 1967 borders will diminish significantly.

Hmmmmmmm.........

Maybe......... Maybe even Probably.....

But what type of Islam..............

If you go Looney Sunni, that ain't going to please the Iran and the HezBozo Killer Klowns with all their rockets.... May still want to "Rain Fire" on you......

If you go Shiite...........

Just on the Radio, the Egyptian Sunni Morsi saying that Shia are more dangerous than Jews!!!!!!

OTOH Why not just really stir the pot and lower the conversion/citizen standards to Reform Jew levels...
And make it tax free to be a convert ......... Plus you get to drink booze and we'll grandmother any existing polygamous wives... David had more than one...**
Imagine the RAGE in the Arab/Muslim World at Palis who converted to Judaism after their Arab "Brothers" treated them second class all these years

***And Solomon had hundreds of wives and about twice as many porcupines Oops I mean concubines..........

[Jnalum Persicum]

.

On the one hand Jews have lived in what is present-day Israel for thousands of years, most of it under Islamic rule, but on the other Muslims are predisposed to wipe out Jews completely. Well which is it

Both.....

.

Monster ,

Your reasoning, views and logic, re Jews, is from a confusing assumption, not sure intentional or unconscious (although things pretty much clear)

You always refer to Jews , not differentiating between Hebrew tribe AND European and Russian converts

You use Jew as a religion to refer to an ethnic group

Yes, true, you right, Hebrew tribe lived in Palestine/Israel for 1000s of yrs

but

not so the European and Russian convert to Judaism

Conversion to Judaism (non existent in Judaism), or adaption of Judaism, pretty much a new phenomena, less than a few 100 yrs old

It would be helpful (and clarify) to refer to Hebrew tribe Jew or Russian/European Jew when historical and ancient facts are used to make a case for present situation





.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

Conversion to Judaism is an ancient phenomenon, with Abraham being the first convert

Jesus referred to it....... Mentioned that the Pharisees would cross land and see to make just one convert........

Later Jews quit being missionary but still accept converts who are persistent.... Smart idea when you are under the domination of semi-theocratic States Muslim and Christian that are/were bitchy about converts........ Still was a problem that occasioned persecution..........

Really conversion tends to go the other way from Jew to Christian and Muslim and secular depending on who/what is dominant.........

When there is persecution, someone claiming to be a Jew is likely to be one...........


If by adaption of Judaism, you mean sects within Judaism, that is also an ancient phenomenon, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, Samaritans, and Essenes being good examples....

For me and from what G_d is recorded as saying in the Scriptures, the meme/belief and practice is more important than the gene

It would be helpful (and clarify) to refer to Hebrew tribe Jew or Russian/European Jew when historical and ancient facts are used to make a case for present situation

Maybe but IMVHO not really. Israel as a State has the power to set its own immigration and citizen standards just as Uz, the Arab States ** and the rest of the world does.

And I am not really making a case for the present situation...... I think Israel, Uz and anyone else willing and able should be headed for the Moon and beyond or failing that somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere and/or under the sea with Ariel's family ***

One possibility might be a 3 state solution ...... Israel, HamAssistan and FATAHistan in the West Bank if Abbas can persuade the Israelis that FATAHistan won't be a rocket launching zone like HamAssistan is..........****

Though Orion Rocket Launchers could be a real solution to the problem ........ Israel with Jacob's Ladder as Earth's premier Spaceport........

What a shame that HamAssistan has the good beachfront property that could be used to set up an Arab Hong Kong/Macao/Monte Carlo complete with casinos, free trade and 1 hour temporary marriages

With mixing as seen in my clan, it really doesn't matter or possibly won't shortly*....... Without Caste Law enforcement as seen in Historic India, shortly there may be not so much difference between the Ashkenazim, the Sephardi, the Beta Israel, the Hindu Jews both light high caste and dark low caste, Chinese Jews, Japanese Jews..............


*One way or another..... Could see another Holocaust...... Nuclear this time........ Time to have Orion build Jacob's Ladder and get off this crazy planet.......

** Interesting that Israeli standards are much more liberal toward their fellow Jews than Arabs are toward their alleged Pali Arab brothers.........
For that matter AIUI states like Uz and Canada etc. are easier on the Palis than their "Arab Brothers"............

***
C8OBlq_svBY

**** To be fair to Abbas, the Penguins are an increasing part of the problem

.

Come on , Monster, come on

You know perfectly that, Abraham and all other boys are all Zoroastrian (Mithra) figures (look at the site - Abraham there), they mythology, did not exist

and

Abraham never heard of Judaism .. was 1000s of yrs before that thing

come on,

Just ask a Rabbi (and not the charlatans calling themselves reform this and that), no such thing as conversion in Judaism .. all this rubbish invention of Russian and European Zionist Mafia to make a case for themselves (David, confronted with this, argued Russians and Europeans become by an act of "Miracle" sons and daughters of Sarah ) .. Poor Hebrew tribe crowed, they between a hard place and a rock, when dust settles they will be holding the bag

Come on, Monster, be real

and

Imagine all Indoneasian and Bangladeshi Muslims claiming Arabia for themselves claiming Moh promised them that Oil money



.

[HAL9000]

It did not happen, but the fact is that had it happened,

Do you see the problem with this? How can a hypothetical scenario be factual?

The fact that you don't care does not change the truth.

1) The "truth" of a hypothetical scenario?

Your argument that the Suras of Quran supersede the currently fashionable antisemitic Hadiths, does not seem to help to convince Hamas and many Arab groups to change their minds, for in this kind of thinking is at the core of their beliefs.

2) You seem to think that the root of Hamas' attitude towards Israel is religious. , when clearly they have other objectives and motivations.

[Emphasis added by HAL 9000]

2) If you are referring to the chronological root of Hamas' attitude towards Israel (before Hamas was formed, although many of its members were around at the beginning of the conflict after 1947) , then you might be partially right. But currently, the "root" of Hamas' attitude morphed into a direct antisemitism that is beginning to become an integral part of the grievances.

Here is a version of the Hamas' charter (this is from 1988, and it is possible that they toned down their antisemitic statements slightly, but essentially the religious interpretations that they are bringing into politics is the same). Note that the main tenet of Hamas' is still not hunting down the Jews, but to get all the land and make it without Jews. However, religious antisemitism became an integral part of their charter that is used to super-charge their motivations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Anti ... ti-Zionism
EXCERPT:

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism

See also: Racism in the Palestinian territories
According to academic Esther Webman, antisemitism is not the main tenet of Hamas ideology, although antisemitic rhetoric is frequent and intense in Hamas leaflets. The leaflets generally do not differentiate between Jews and Zionists. In other Hamas publications and in interviews with its leaders attempts at this differentiation have been made.[223] In 2009 representatives of the small Jewish sect Neturei Karta met with Hamas leader Ismail Haniya in Gaza, who stated that he held nothing against Jews but only against the state of Israel.[224]
Hamas Charter (1988)
Main article: Hamas Covenant
Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant provides the following quotation, attributed to Mohammed:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."[225]
Article 22 states that the French revolution, the Russian revolution, colonialism and both world wars were created by the Zionists or forces supportive of Zionism:
"You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."[226]
Article 32 of the Covenant refers to an antisemitic forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."[225]
Statements by Hamas members and clerics
In 2008 Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas said in his sermon at the Katib Wilayat mosque in Gaza that "Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing.".[68][227]
Another Hamas legislator and imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal, discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next". He concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews".[68][227]
In January 2009, Gazan Hamas Health Minister Basim Naim published a letter in The Guardian, stating that Hamas has no quarrel with Jewish people, only with the actions of Israel.[228]
In May 2009, senior Hamas MP Sayed Abu Musameh said that "in our culture, we respect every foreigner, especially Jews and Christians, but we are against Zionists, not as nationalists but as fascists and racists."[229]
Following the rededication of the Hurva Synagogue in Jerusalem in March 2010, senior Hamas figure al-Zahar called on Palestinians everywhere to observe five minutes of silence "for Israel's disappearance and to identify with Jerusalem and the al-Aqsa mosque." He further stated stated that "Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue." [230][231]
On 8 January 2012, during a visit to Tunis, Gazan Hamas PM Ismail Haniyeh told The Associated Press on that he disagrees with the anti-Semitic slogans. "We are not against the Jews because they are Jews. Our problem is with those occupying the land of Palestine," he said. "There are Jews all over the world, but Hamas does not target them.".[232]
In response to a statement by Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas that Hamas preferred non-violent means and had agreed to adopt "peaceful resistance," Hamas contradicted Abbas. According to Hamas spokesman Sami Abu-Zuhri, "We had agreed to give popular resistance precedence in the West Bank, but this does not come at the expense of armed resistance."[233]
On August 10, 2012, Ahmad Bahr, Deputy Speaker of the Hamas Parliament, stated in a sermon which aired on Al-Aqsa TV that:
If the enemy sets foot on a single square inch of Islamic land, Jihad becomes an individual duty, incumbent on every Muslim, male or female. A woman may set out [on Jihad] without her husband's permission, and a servant without his master's permission. Why? In order to annihilate those Jews...Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.[234][235][236][237]
Statements on the Holocaust
Hamas has been explicit in its Holocaust Denial. In reaction to the Stockholm conference on the Jewish Holocaust, held in late January 2000, Hamas issued a press release which it published on its official website, containing the following statements from a senior leader:
This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests.[238]
In August 2003, senior Hamas official Dr Abd Al-Aziz Al-Rantisi wrote in the Hamas newspaper Al-Risala that the Zionists encouraged murder of Jews by the Nazis with the aim of forcing them to immigrate to Palestine.[239]
In 2005, Khaled Mashaal called Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's December 14, 2005 statements on the Holocaust that Europeans had "created a myth in the name of Holocaust"[240]) as "courageous."[241] Later in 2008, Basim Naim, the minister of health in the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority government in Gaza countered holocaust denial, and said "it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality."[242]
In an open letter to Gaza Strip UNRWA chief John Ging published August 20, 2009, the movement's Popular Committees for Refugees called the Holocaust "a lie invented by the Zionists," adding that the group refused to let Gazan children study about it.[243] Hamas leader Younis al-Astal continued by saying that having the Holocaust included in the UNRWA curriculum for Gaza students amounted to "marketing a lie and spreading it." Al-Astal continued "I do not exaggerate when I say this issue is a war crime, because of how it serves the Zionist colonizers and deals with their hypocrisy and lies."[244][245]
In February 2011, Hamas voiced opposition to UNRWA's teaching of the Holocaust in Gaza. According to Hamas, "Holocaust studies in refugee camps is a contemptible plot and serves the Zionist entity with a goal of creating a reality and telling stories in order to justify acts of slaughter against the Palestinian people."[246][247]
In July 2012, Fawzi Barhoum, a Hamas spokesman, denounced a visit by Ziad al-Bandak, an adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, to the Auschwitz death camp, saying it was "unjustified" and "unhelpful" and only served the "Zionist occupation" while coming "at the expense of a real Palestinian tragedy". He also called the Holocaust an "alleged tragedy".[248][249][250][251]

Thus, regardless of your observation that the Quran itself does not promote antisemitism, Hamas is doing its best to combine various elements from Islam to profit from antisemitism made religious and religion made antisemitic.

--

Now let me address your comment 1) above. You basically deleted part of my full sentence that "If the people who established Israel were Muslim Arabs from Egypt instead of Jews, then the outrage against Israel's existence in the Islamic world (minus Palestinians) would have been considerably less severe." You only quoted the hypothesis "If only Muslim Arabs had settled in Israel instead of Jews".


But my point was never a hypothesis A, but the truth of the logical formula " IF A THEN B " as the proof that there is a double-standard.

Since you don't like my claim (the logical formula's truth, not the truth of the hypothesis), then this time let me give a concrete example that has already happened in 1974.

In 1974, the Cypriot Greek fascist leader Nikos Sampson launched a coup to overthrow the government in an attempt to unite Cyprus with Greece. On this occasion he also launched a brutal campaign to ethnically cleanse and also exterminate the Ethnic Turkish minority in Cyprus. Then Turkey intervened and invaded the Northern Part of Cyrpus (40 % approximately) and this actually saved the lives of thousands of ethnic Turks who were in the Island. At that time I was a child in Turkey and I applauded this military intervention because of the fascist coup perpetrated by Nikos Sampson. Incidentally, many years late,r before Sampson died from natural causes, he stated that if Turkey had not intervened, he would have liquidated all the ethnic Turks in Cyprus.

But separately, not only the 40 % of Cyprus that Turkey invaded was a lot more land than that originally belonged to the ethnic Turks in the island, but in addition, the Turkish government that was jointly operated by Professor Dr. Erbakan and the leftist coalition partner Mr. Ecevit, also brought in up to 120,000 Anatolian peasants to settle in Cyprus, to bolster the Turkish minority there.

Bringing in settlers from Anatolia was illegal according to the international law, but NATO did not punish Turkey too much (some arms shipments were delayed from the US) because of Turkey's strategic military importance during the Cold War. But in addition, the Muslim world did not say anything either. In the West Bank there are approximately 400,000 Jewish settlers, which is more than the alleged 120,000 settlers from Anatolia who went to Cyprus, but the scales of these numbers are comparable. I can see that you also do not object to this kind of land grab, even though you are spending a lot of time criticizing Jews in Palestine for having stolen land. This demonstrates that you have a double-standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
EXCERPT:

Turkish settlers
As a result of the Turkish invasion, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe stated that the demographic structure of the island has been continuously modified as a result of the deliberate policies of the Turks. Following the occupation of Northern Cyprus, civilian settlers from Turkey began arriving on the island. Despite the lack of consensus on the exact figures, all parties concerned admitted that Turkish nationals began systematically arriving in the northern part of the island in 1975.[84] It was suggested that over 120,000 settlers were brought into Cyprus from mainland Turkey.[84] This was despite Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits an occupier from transferring or deporting parts of its own civilian population into an occupied territory.
UN Resolution 1987/19 (1987) of the "Sub-Commission On Prevention Of Discrimination And Protection Of Minorities", which was adopted on 2 September 1987, demanded "the full restoration of all human rights to the whole population of Cyprus, including the freedom of movement, the freedom of settlement and the right to property" and also expressed "its concern also at the policy and practice of the implantation of settlers in the occupied territories of Cyprus which constitute a form of colonialism and attempt to change illegally the demographic structure of Cyprus".
In a report prepared by Mete Hatay on behalf of PRIO, the Oslo peace center, it was estimated that the number of Turkish mainlanders in the north who have been granted the right to vote is 37,000. This figure however excludes mainlanders who are married to Turkish Cypriots or adult children of mainland settlers as well as all minors. The report also estimates the number of Turkish mainlanders who have not been granted the right to vote, whom it labels as "transients", at a further 105,000.[85]