On the Nature of Things | Forum

Hans Bulvai wrote:So why are all these people protesting the resolution?

Based on the news story you linked to, because they belong to a rival political party and will oppose anything Erdogan/AKP does.

If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.

Endovelico wrote:If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Endovelico.

That could be a VERY CLEVER idea....... Possibly Brilliant..........

Rather like lizards that lose their tails to escape from pursuers........



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotomy

Most of the Kurds seem to be in the North East corner of Syria.........*

Almost like a tail......................

"Bashir, Lose your tail to save your ASSad" ...........

Perhaps ASSad should hire you as an advisor, Endo

If that Idea works, you could deserve a big Christmas bonus ...........

Let the Kurds go their own Whey
Make the Turks have a VERY BAD Day.......

Maybe Iran too..........**

Reminds me of this song..........

6ul-cZyuYq4



*There are Kurds elsewhere in Syria............

**Which may make ASSad's Persian Paymasters less than enthusiastic about this Plan

I think Syria's oil may be up in the northeast, though. Same geological formation as in Mosul / North Iraq.

There are reports that the increase in PKK activity against Turkey is due to the free hand given to them by the Syrian regime as a way to put pressure on Ankara.
Poor Kurds. Everybody uses them then discards them.

No, you use the Kurds and discard the Way.

Ideally, and against my better judgement, the Kurds do deserve their own place; but they have to realize that you can't have your cake and eat it too.
A Kurdistan as a federal province of a larger unified Arab/Persian entity where the oil gets shared and the profits benefit everyone.
Kinda like a fair Muslim Big Brother in charge (the women are vailed so what's the problem with him watching ). But, if you genuflect up, we'll snip your nuts!;)

I know, fantasy....

Endovelico wrote:If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.

You want to see "adventures" then try to form an independent Kurdistan and watch some really ugly WW2-style stuff happen in the region.

That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...

They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.

Plus all the domestic mass-murder.

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:If Syria allows its Kurds to join with Iraqi Kurds in forming an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will have its hands too full with fighting its own Kurds to have much time to fight Syria. A divided country like Turkey would do well to avoid military adventures.

You want to see "adventures" then try to form an independent Kurdistan and watch some really ugly WW2-style stuff happen in the region.

That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

You want to see "adventures" then try to form an independent Kurdistan and watch some really ugly WW2-style stuff happen in the region.

Given the region, don't you mean WW1-style stuff.......

But maybe you are right, WW2-Style....... Kurds likely will be Tito/Bielski Bros/Abba Kovner..... Not WW1 Armenians

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...

They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.

Plus all the domestic mass-murder.

Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.

Endovelico wrote:.

Ibrahim wrote:.

Endovelico wrote:.

Ibrahim wrote:.

That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

.

An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident..

.

They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.

Plus all the domestic mass-murder.

.

Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.

.

Head of Iraq Sunni terrorist, Tariq al-Hashemi (sentenced to death), sitting in Ankara and directing the terrorist laying DAILY car bombs in Iraq killing 100+ woman and children every week

Imagine if it would be other way round .. bombs going off every week in Turkey

That Phantom was shot down in Syrian space, Turks were flying reconnaissance over Syria since long time

and

Wahhabi terrorist attacking Syria have their headquarters in Turkish villages .. why should Syria not attack them ? ?

Turkey making big mistake .. this a trap west has laid for Turkey .. present Turkey is not a real coherent country like Germany .. it's pretty much a MishMash .. Atta Turk could not find a glue holding a Turkey together, that is why he define Turks as anybody speaking Turkish (meaning Kurd and Armenian and Greek and Bulgarian and Iberian Jews and and, all are, according to Atta Turk, Turks) .. well, folks, history does not work that way, things must have a deeper meaning


West, Europe, has destroyed Ottoman empire, was never a friend of Turk .. in cold war, Turks and West had same interest, the Russian Bear .. that, no more


Big mistake, Ibrahim, towing western line and alienating that whole space



.

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...

They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.

Plus all the domestic mass-murder.

Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.

Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.

The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...

They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.

Plus all the domestic mass-murder.

Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.

Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.

The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.

According to the BBC:

Turkey responds to Syrian mortar fire in Akcakale

Turkish artillery has returned fire on Syria for a fifth day after a mortar landed in a border village.

Five people were killed in a similar incident, reportedly in the same street in the village, Akcakale, last week.

Turkey has been firing daily into Syria since Wednesday's deaths, as apparently stray munitions fall on its territory.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19861591

If I understand well, two Syrian mortar shells have fallen on the Turkish side of the border, the second of which caused no damage. The BBC considers these shells as "stray munitions". In response, Turkish artillery has been firing on Syria for five days. Being neither Turkish nor Syrian, I can only state that the response seems excessive, taking into account the accidental character of the Syrian shelling, and that Turkey seems to be looking for an excuse to attack Syria.

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Thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, with some holding banners that read "Let's make peace and stop bloodshed" as they rally in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.

The Alevis demand religious equality in Turkey, where state-run religious services are tailored for the Sunni majority, and recognition of their houses of worship, which are denied state funding.

[..]

A man shouts " No to war!" as thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, march in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.

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Jnalum Persicum wrote:.

766x575.jpg

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Thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, with some holding banners that read "Let's make peace and stop bloodshed" as they rally in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.

The Alevis demand religious equality in Turkey, where state-run religious services are tailored for the Sunni majority, and recognition of their houses of worship, which are denied state funding.

[..]

A man shouts " No to war!" as thousands of Alevi Muslims, members of Turkey's largest religious minority group, march in the Turkish capital of Ankara, Turkey, Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012 to demand equal rights to the Sunni majority and calling for peace amid rising tensions with neighboring Syria.

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Let me apologize in advance for my ignorance, but are the Turkish Alevi people different from the Syrian Alawite minority?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawi
According to Wikipedia, there are only 450,000 Alevis in Turkey, but if they are as tough as the ones in Syria, then I would start worrying. Anyway, I like Turkey.

Ibrahim wrote:Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime

A totally inaccurate, if not false characterization of the stance of "some on this forum".

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:That hypothetical aside, striking back against the Assad regime, which has (evidently) made attacks on Turkish soil, and in also busily conducting mass-murder within its own borders, isn't exactly half-cocked military adventuring. What do countries have armies for if not precisely these scenarios, where an unhinged dictatorship starts attacking your territory and citizens?

An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...

They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.

Plus all the domestic mass-murder.

Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.

Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.

The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.

According to the BBC:

Turkey responds to Syrian mortar fire in Akcakale

Turkish artillery has returned fire on Syria for a fifth day after a mortar landed in a border village.

Five people were killed in a similar incident, reportedly in the same street in the village, Akcakale, last week.

Turkey has been firing daily into Syria since Wednesday's deaths, as apparently stray munitions fall on its territory.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19861591

If I understand well, two Syrian mortar shells have fallen on the Turkish side of the border, the second of which caused no damage. The BBC considers these shells as "stray munitions". In response, Turkish artillery has been firing on Syria for five days. Being neither Turkish nor Syrian, I can only state that the response seems excessive, taking into account the accidental character of the Syrian shelling, and that Turkey seems to be looking for an excuse to attack Syria.

So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.

But that aside, don't you respond differently depending on who "accidentally" wrongs you? The Assad regime is literally a mass-murdering dictatorship, don't you put them on a shorter leash than you would if, say, New Zealand accidentally sunk one of your merchant ships? I don't think other nations have an obligation to interfere in the Syrian revolution/civil war, but arguably people have been far too easy on Assad, not excessively harsh. Turkey is, so far, shelling Syrian army positions. Not punishing the Syrian civilian population. In fact it's Assad who is doing that.

Parodite wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime

A totally inaccurate, if not false characterization of the stance of "some on this forum".

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Rhapsody,

Quite Right, IMVHO.

Not enthused about ASSad but history indicates his replacement may well be worse.... especially for minorities like the Christians..

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

Endovelico wrote:
An odd mortar shell probably accidentally falling on the Turkish side of the border is truly a very poor casus beli incident...

They were shelling this border village repeatedly, plus they already shot down a Turkish fighter jet.

Plus all the domestic mass-murder.

Can you document that the village had been "repeatedly" shelled? I don't seem to have read anything about that in the international press. As to "mass murder", had it been done in Iraq, by another well-known party, and it would have been called "collateral damage"... Not that I'm defending the Syrian government's actions, but it seems you are looking very hard for an excuse to justify Turkish intervention in Syria.

Not as desperately as some on this forum attempt to defend and justify the actions of the Assad regime.

The village in question is Akcakale, and according to the villagers there they've been attacked more than once, and are fearful of more. According to the Reuters reporters in Turkey anyway.

According to the BBC:

Turkey responds to Syrian mortar fire in Akcakale

Turkish artillery has returned fire on Syria for a fifth day after a mortar landed in a border village.

Five people were killed in a similar incident, reportedly in the same street in the village, Akcakale, last week.

Turkey has been firing daily into Syria since Wednesday's deaths, as apparently stray munitions fall on its territory.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19861591

If I understand well, two Syrian mortar shells have fallen on the Turkish side of the border, the second of which caused no damage. The BBC considers these shells as "stray munitions". In response, Turkish artillery has been firing on Syria for five days. Being neither Turkish nor Syrian, I can only state that the response seems excessive, taking into account the accidental character of the Syrian shelling, and that Turkey seems to be looking for an excuse to attack Syria.

So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.

But that aside, don't you respond differently depending on who "accidentally" wrongs you? The Assad regime is literally a mass-murdering dictatorship, don't you put them on a shorter leash than you would if, say, New Zealand accidentally sunk one of your merchant ships? I don't think other nations have an obligation to interfere in the Syrian revolution/civil war, but arguably people have been far too easy on Assad, not excessively harsh. Turkey is, so far, shelling Syrian army positions. Not punishing the Syrian civilian population. In fact it's Assad who is doing that.

Thank you VERY Much for your Post, Ibrahim.

I am not for the overthrow of ASSad and strongly suspect that there are those in Turkey who are looking for an excuse to invade.

But Syria would do well to make sure that there are NO mistakes unless like Panama's Noriega, ASSad thinks he will be safer in a Turkish Prison than where he is/thinks he will be shortly..........

That said, while a Turkish Invasion especially with NATO treaty required backing would likely mean the quick end of ASSad, thing might spiral out of control....... as happened with the Uz invasion of Iraq....... General Chaos might be true commander.......

Could be wrong........ Turks might not be quite as clumsy and stupid as we Uz were in Iraq......

Or they could be worse ......... But they would probably have to work at being worse........

don't you put them on a shorter leash than you would if, say, New Zealand accidentally sunk one of your merchant ships?

True......... Remembering a sad recent example where an American/Uz sloppy showoff submarine captain sank a Japanese vessel by mistake and several people died......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru ... _collision

Ibrahim wrote:So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.

The not accidentally shot-down Turkish aircraft was illegally flying over Syrian territory, I believe...

The USA should just withdraw unilaterally from the middle-east and central Asia. Let the post collapse governments know we are always interested in trade.

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:So two incidents, plus the "accidentally" shot-down Turkish aircraft.

The not accidentally shot-down Turkish aircraft was illegally flying over Syrian territory, I believe...

So you shouldn't shell people for shelling your territory, but its ok to shoot down planes for for accidentally entering your airspace? Decide whether you're a dove or a hawk, man.

Enki wrote:The USA should just withdraw unilaterally from the middle-east and central Asia. Let the post collapse governments know we are always interested in trade.

How does this relate to the current situation in Syria or conflict looming between Syria and Turkey?