On the Nature of Things | Forum

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American bishop John Shelby Spong of the Episcopal Church. Not only does he cut through the crap that has plagued mainstream religion for centuries, but Spong finds a way to frame God and religion in a way that doesn't doom you to eternal, fiery, damnation-a-plenty hell for sleeping in on Sundays.

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Spong is a specious source. He's most famous for believing that Paul was gay, and is a theological outlier.

Hell is in the Bible, and it cannot be simply dismissed by Christians, but it certainly isn't a major concern anymore. When life shorter and sudden death more common, it was a major focus of preaching. That has not been true in any of the major denominations for the past century. This is partly because sudden death is no longer a major concern, and because it does nothing to teach the value of Christian living.

Hell is other people.

~ Satre

Spong is interesting, but well off in his own theoretical theological territory. That High Anglican/Jesuit tradition of intellectual exercise that is beyond what can reasonably be called Christian religion and into the realm of speculative philosophy. Sufis produce a great deal of this kind of thinking, to the horror of salafists, and there are also Jewish equivalents.


But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

Ibrahim wrote:Spong is interesting, but well off in his own theoretical theological territory. That High Anglican/Jesuit tradition of intellectual exercise that is beyond what can reasonably be called Christian religion and into the realm of speculative philosophy. Sufis produce a great deal of this kind of thinking, to the horror of salafists, and there are also Jewish equivalents.


But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

Agreed.

Ibrahim wrote:Spong is interesting, but well off in his own theoretical theological territory. That High Anglican/Jesuit tradition of intellectual exercise that is beyond what can reasonably be called Christian religion and into the realm of speculative philosophy. Sufis produce a great deal of this kind of thinking, to the horror of salafists, and there are also Jewish equivalents.


But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

Not for want of trying.

jj_appelbaum wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:Spong is interesting, but well off in his own theoretical theological territory. That High Anglican/Jesuit tradition of intellectual exercise that is beyond what can reasonably be called Christian religion and into the realm of speculative philosophy. Sufis produce a great deal of this kind of thinking, to the horror of salafists, and there are also Jewish equivalents.


But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

Not for want of trying.

It wasn't Jews that "tried" for a Hell for Judaism, it was the Nazis.

Marcus wrote:

jj_appelbaum wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:Spong is interesting, but well off in his own theoretical theological territory. That High Anglican/Jesuit tradition of intellectual exercise that is beyond what can reasonably be called Christian religion and into the realm of speculative philosophy. Sufis produce a great deal of this kind of thinking, to the horror of salafists, and there are also Jewish equivalents.


But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

Not for want of trying.

It wasn't Jews that "tried" for a Hell for Judaism, it was the Nazis.

"Buchenwald's main gate, with the slogan Jedem das Seine (literally, "to each his own", but figuratively "everyone gets what he deserves"). The slogan is legible only from inside the camp."

"Hell is for children." - Pat Benatar

Ibrahim wrote:But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

They solved that problem by creating hell on Earth... Trouble is it only applies to non-Jews...

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

They solved that problem by creating hell on Earth... Trouble is it only applies to non-Jews...

An amazing statement, or maybe not...

Endovelico wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:But from and orthodox religious point of view, Christianity has a Hell. The only major monotheism that might not is Judaism.

They solved that problem by creating hell on Earth... Trouble is it only applies to non-Jews...

I was speaking in the purely theological sense, but I am sympathetic to the idea that humans often create de facto "hell(s) on Earth" in a number of places/times.

I always took that to be the meaning of the famous Satre quote.

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Spong is a specious source. He's most famous for believing that Paul was gay, and is a theological outlier.

Hell is in the Bible, and it cannot be simply dismissed by Christians, but it certainly isn't a major concern anymore. When life shorter and sudden death more common, it was a major focus of preaching. That has not been true in any of the major denominations for the past century. This is partly because sudden death is no longer a major concern, and because it does nothing to teach the value of Christian living.

yeah..... and also that life was terrible and devoid of hope, purpose or any sense of justice. As such, Hell was just a continuation of normal business topside, only that no one was deluded with what they were about or where they stood and with whom. The constructs of a Heaven vs. a Hell didn't have much to do with social control so much as making life and human living coherent and humanely possible. We don't live in normal wretchedness, so we have the luxury of making ourselves stupid to the blunt facts of pre modern existence......

hell as shaudenfraude, its obvious and i hadnt spent enough time pondering it to connected the dots, despite not being christian ive known plenty of them and as nonc suggested, hell wasnt really much of a focus for them. fire n brimstone types are rare for me and typically only show up in movies.

red hot pokers for all that i despise, what a delicious thought.. hangatik, hmm.. interesting.

No, Virginia, there is no hell.

Which is not to say there is no eternal punishment.