One vs. the Many

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

I think this is how the rest of the developed world, and half of the USA, looks at it. However others adopt a Randian model wherein there should be nothing done to assist the economic losers of the market economy.

I think only a very small minority of people believe that. Less than 5%.

You mean %5 of Americans?

You must agree that "welfare queens" and the ambition-sapping consequences of the social safety net are a conservative talking point.

Less than 5% of Americans believe that nothing should be done to assist the poor. In fact, the number is a fraction of 1%. Some people do not believe that the federal government ought to be coordinating such assistance, but your thinking doesn't allow for that kind of nuance.

It makes no difference. We have historical evidence for what private or religiously motivated charity provides for the poor, and it is a small fraction of what state-run services provide.

Consider: Americans have less state-run social programs and more people who identify as observant Christians than any Western European country. If this fantasy of individual or faith-based charity worked then America would already be the best place in the world to be down on your luck. Except we all know that that socialized and religious ambivalent Swedes care for their poor, and their citizens as a whole, better than US donors and philanthropists do for their fellow Americans.

No, we all see through the excuse of private charity. Charity does a lot of good both in America and worldwide, but it is a drop in the ocean. Please don't add the double-down excuse that freedom-loving Americans are simply withholding their charity until the inefficient state and rapacious tax burdens are lifted from them. Then, and only then, would milk and honey flow.

How about states? Cities? Do you have anything that wasn't prepared for you in a party mailer?

[Ibrahim]

I think this is how the rest of the developed world, and half of the USA, looks at it. However others adopt a Randian model wherein there should be nothing done to assist the economic losers of the market economy.

I think only a very small minority of people believe that. Less than 5%.

You mean %5 of Americans?

You must agree that "welfare queens" and the ambition-sapping consequences of the social safety net are a conservative talking point.

Less than 5% of Americans believe that nothing should be done to assist the poor. In fact, the number is a fraction of 1%. Some people do not believe that the federal government ought to be coordinating such assistance, but your thinking doesn't allow for that kind of nuance.

It makes no difference. We have historical evidence for what private or religiously motivated charity provides for the poor, and it is a small fraction of what state-run services provide.

Consider: Americans have less state-run social programs and more people who identify as observant Christians than any Western European country. If this fantasy of individual or faith-based charity worked then America would already be the best place in the world to be down on your luck. Except we all know that that socialized and religious ambivalent Swedes care for their poor, and their citizens as a whole, better than US donors and philanthropists do for their fellow Americans.

No, we all see through the excuse of private charity. Charity does a lot of good both in America and worldwide, but it is a drop in the ocean. Please don't add the double-down excuse that freedom-loving Americans are simply withholding their charity until the inefficient state and rapacious tax burdens are lifted from them. Then, and only then, would milk and honey flow.

How about states? Cities? Do you have anything that wasn't prepared for you in a party mailer?

Oh wow, you were talking state vs. federal? Nobody else in the developed world cares about that, and e.g. the healthcare system in e.g. Canada is operated by the Provinces rather than the Federal government, but conservatives in the US oppose health care at either level so this really just sounds like a distraction.


The "party mailer" thing is just embarrassing for you. I have more intellectual and political latitude than you could even understand. Americans, and particularly American conservatives, don't have the luxury of political diversity that most of the democratic world enjoys. The rest of us make real electoral choices, balance pros and cons of candidates across several different viable parties, in a way that you can only imagine. You don't have the scope of political thought and expression that somebody in India has, but maybe someday...

[Mr. Perfect]

Yes but we enjoy a far higher standard of living.

Is Ibs the worst trash talker in the world or what?

[Enki]

Yes but we enjoy a far higher standard of living.

Than Canada?

Is Ibs the worst trash talker in the world or what?

He's right.

[Mr. Perfect]

Than Canada?

India. But we still have Canada by nearly 10k gdp per capita.

He's right.

Fine with me, I'd rather live in the US than India. I would suggest India to you, they probably would be down with your nudity/no real estate thing+ drugs.

[Enki]

India. But we still have Canada by nearly 10k gdp per capita.

GDP is not standard of living.

Fine with me, I'd rather live in the US than India. I would suggest India to you, they probably would be down with your nudity/no real estate thing+ drugs.

Actually if you knew anything about India it's that they are very strict about nudity, they don't even want individuals to be naked alone.

[Mr. Perfect]

GDP is not standard of living.

Uh huh. If you don't care for your share of GDP then I can send you a paypal account and you can send it on over to me.

Actually if you knew anything about India it's that they are very strict about nudity, they don't even want individuals to be naked alone.

I thought the untouchables were ok with nudity, I thought that would be your people. Could be wrong.

Either way I will take my high standard of living in comparison to the "scope of political thought and expression" enjoyed in India.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Actually if you knew anything about India it's that they are very strict about nudity, they don't even want individuals to be naked alone.

That may be true in some places, I'm not sure, but I've been to Chennai and Bangalore for work and there were naked people walking around all over. Even non-untouchable males were not shy about lifting up their clothes and exposing themselves to scratch, or pissing in the street.

[Mr. Perfect]

That's what I thought, sounds like a paradise for tinker. He should move there.

[Typhoon]

That's what I thought, sounds like a paradise for tinker. He should move there.

No need. Indian companies are finding it cost effective to relocate call centres in the US.

[A general point - I'm not suggesting this job for Enki or others posters.]

[Ibrahim]

Actually if you knew anything about India it's that they are very strict about nudity, they don't even want individuals to be naked alone.

That may be true in some places, I'm not sure, but I've been to Chennai and Bangalore for work and there were naked people walking around all over. Even non-untouchable males were not shy about lifting up their clothes and exposing themselves to scratch, or pissing in the street.

Sounds like the scene outside a North American or British nightclub, circa 2am.


Anyway India has tons of real problems aside from public urination, but they do have multi-party democracy figured out.

[Enki]

That's what I thought, sounds like a paradise for tinker. He should move there.

No need. Indian companies are finding it cost effective to relocate call centres in the US.

[A general point - I'm not suggesting this job for Enki or others posters.]

We have potential access to an Indian company with about 50 software developers. A friend of our CEO has one that is rarely being used to capacity.

[Mr. Perfect]

Look at that, tinker joined the world of corporate personhood. Sold out the fleabaggers right on schedule.

[Mr. Perfect]

Sounds like the scene outside a North American or British nightclub, circa 2am.

You have to wait till 2 am though.

Anyway India has tons of real problems aside from public urination, but they do have multi-party democracy figured out.

Whoop de doo.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Actually if you knew anything about India it's that they are very strict about nudity, they don't even want individuals to be naked alone.

That may be true in some places, I'm not sure, but I've been to Chennai and Bangalore for work and there were naked people walking around all over. Even non-untouchable males were not shy about lifting up their clothes and exposing themselves to scratch, or pissing in the street.

Sounds like the scene outside a North American or British nightclub, circa 2am.


Anyway India has tons of real problems aside from public urination, but they do have multi-party democracy figured out.

I wasn't making a value judgment. I like Indian society, though its collision with western economic materialism (in its capitalist and socialist forms) seems to be a total disaster so far. Filthy naked sadhus don't bother me, though the amount of trash and pollution makes an American dump seem like the Ritz Carlton.

[Ibrahim]

Actually if you knew anything about India it's that they are very strict about nudity, they don't even want individuals to be naked alone.

That may be true in some places, I'm not sure, but I've been to Chennai and Bangalore for work and there were naked people walking around all over. Even non-untouchable males were not shy about lifting up their clothes and exposing themselves to scratch, or pissing in the street.

Sounds like the scene outside a North American or British nightclub, circa 2am.


Anyway India has tons of real problems aside from public urination, but they do have multi-party democracy figured out.

I wasn't making a value judgment. I like Indian society, though its collision with western economic materialism (in its capitalist and socialist forms) seems to be a total disaster so far. Filthy naked sadhus don't bother me, though the amount of trash and pollution makes an American dump seem like the Ritz Carlton.

My only point in mentioning India is was to point out their mulit-party political process, I could have grabbed any country with the same setup, I was just looking for a non-European example for novelty. My intent was not to debate Indian culture, which I personally like.

But India actually highlights something else which is on-topic, and that is that India is a country that is, as a whole, increasingly powerful and wealthy, but in an individual basis the average Indian is poor and lives in sometimes truly awful conditions. This is also true to some extent of China, Brazil, etc. What is interesting for our purposes is that this is also a potential future for the US and its citizens, and indeed it could be argued that you are well on your way already.

[Mr. Perfect]

My only point in mentioning India is was to point out their mulit-party political process,

Nobody cares.

I could have grabbed any country with the same setup, I was just looking for a non-European example for novelty. My intent was not to debate Indian culture, which I personally like.

But India actually highlights something else which is on-topic, and that is that India is a country that is, as a whole, increasingly powerful and wealthy, but in an individual basis the average Indian is poor and lives in sometimes truly awful conditions. This is also true to some extent of China, Brazil, etc. What is interesting for our purposes is that this is also a potential future for the US and its citizens, and indeed it could be argued that you are well on your way already.

After Obama I'll give you this one.

[noddy]

Considering both sides implement nanny-state policies, I don't think that's it.
.

their is a difference between exploiting a gravy train and demanding one.

i could argue that the right does middle class welfare when the government has extra money because they dont like giving pay rises to the public service

however for many of that political bent - they are also culturally adapted to understanding that the gravy train is dependent on excess and have the memes to cope with it going away.

you see those memes as hypocrisy rather than coping mechanisms so i know we disagree on that

[noddy]

when it comes to oppressing the poor its the government in collusion with the middle class of both left and right wing flavours.

Absolutely. Below a certain threshold the poor cease to be people. Different economic classes can fight over their share of the bill, working class and middle class and the wealthy. But the poor annoy all of them and are looked down on by all of them. Plus they disproportionately suffer from mental illness and addiction, so the prospect of doing anything substantial to help them is very off-putting from a financial and return-no-investment point of view. So everybody above the cutoff is equally responsible, assuming you believe that anyone is responsible at all.

Worth noting that while the poor do better in systems with socialized medical care than they do without, they are still woefully neglected in those states as well.

socialised healthcare does mean better statistics in some cases - not all - because many of the crustier people just flat out ignore the system.

True. But others have access to medications such as anti-psychotics, and can then start using the stepladder of group homes and social assistance to find their way to a permanent residence or employment. What is interesting about all of that is that it takes place largely ignored by the public, and if you were to poll people on it a majority of them would probably oppose the whole thing as an over-expensive waste of time. So even when you win you lose, in terms of public perception.

the truth of it is that without all these rules that enforce the middle class, a large percentage of the white working class would join the tropical aborigines in the master plan of sitting by the beach and fishing your daily meal and then spending your meagre dollars on piss n smokes... when you run out of space you have a little war and get the numbers back down again, just like all the tropical groups do.

I wonder about that. When you start to address the supposedly widespread permanent welfare class of subsidized smokers and TV watchers then the public opinion on social programs really crashes, but its hard to imagine that this is actually the problem people say it is. Does the existence of these programs encourage people to give up on work or ambition? In any case the countries that have comprehensive social safety nets are nicer in every conceivable way than those that don't. Its much easier to be unemployed in Denmark than America, and that doesn't seem to make America any nicer due to the supposedly coercive and work-encouraging approach of a deficient social safety net. Whatever numbers might say about America being the richest nation on Earth, anybody with a passport knows that %99 of the US is a total dump compared to any socialized Western European hellhole. Maybe not Scotland.

the upper middle class dream of it aswell, hence noble savage myths - however they have intellectualised their way out of it through constant reinforcement of why dragging yourself to a boring repetitive office job is the best thing and the future of mankind and everyone wants it and needs it, they must, they must, its the advancement, the future, the perfected civilised human etc.

I think its just self-interest that keeps them going. People would rather be bored, safe and fat than not, which is precisely why people invented the "Noble Savage" myth, or go hunting, or play video games, or do any other approximation of a rough and tumble fantasy life with their bourgeois spare time. Even so, I would still say that the majority of people would prefer to work than be paid to sit at home. Most people just complain that their work isn't interesting or fulfilling enough.

which is why they cant help the aboriginals in australia - they must be denied that lifestyle for fear of the message it would send the working class whites.

the poor are only fit for social engineering into working class, anything else is unacceptable, if the poor dont want that then they have mental health problems.

The difficultly of adapting the aboriginal lifestyle to modern working life (and typically the lowest orders of the working class are the only ones offered to them) is a unique problem that has yet to be solved, and so far everything that has been attempted has produced even worse outcomes than similar programs do for the rest of the poor population. The only exceptions are individuals who are talented enough to escape the entire system right past the working class, obtain an education, and become a lawyer or something. Or, in Canada, a hockey player.

The remainder of the poor only exist as a problem to be solved. You are absolutely right, the goal of society is to turn them into good little workers, or hope they die off. People can't be bothered to care which, so they certainly can't be bothered to think of any better way of addressing the problem. They are a bipartisan inconvenience, disproving both capitalist and socialist utopianism.

europes screwed up to its eyeballs in unfunded obligations and debt, i dont really believe the previous twenty years of living off the fat is going to be relevant to the skin and bones future

having said that, their is all sorts of middle ground in this, im not hyper extremist and if you remember my stance, its that bugger all of my tax money actually makes it out as social services.. my beef is with the public service that studies and manipulates us and with corporate welfare more than it is safety nets.

and quite bluntly i work alot harder than i want to and am damn sick of every extra dollar i manage to scrape up being spent on some assholes wages to play with my life...

in my world of paying for a house thats absurdly more expensive than any time in history and interest rates being absurdly low so saving doesnt work im not living like a civilised creature with safety nets, im not even living like a dog who has bones buried against a rainy day, its pre higher mammal.. i live day to day and am expected to make up the difference with credit that leaves me even more of a debt slave.

id only pay attention to the lefty crap about safety nets if they existed for me - they dont.. the moment i lose my job i lose my house and im on the street and starving.

if i manage to get on the priority list for emergency housing i might only have to spend 6 months on the street living out of rubbish bins.. this is the truth of my world because all my tax money goes to cushy conditions for the government workers and corporate welfare.

how many people in america have lost their houses and are living in tents l?

this tells me the truth about the "social safety net" that our massive taxes dont actually provide..

----

back to the working poor and if they would work as hard as they do if middle class wasnt enforced, i think not.

many working guys dont have hobbies and dont get on with the missus and quite gladly spend all their time at work however most of them in my experience would only work on an adhoc basis when they needed the cash if they could get away with it... they are kept as debt slaves to fund the government rent seekers

70's australia was pretty much like that - the ultra poor setup sh*tshacks away from the burbs and the working poor could live in slightly better modest housing on the edge of the burbs... far less taxes than now and they lived better than they do currently.

the sh*tshacks are now illegal for both left and right wing reasons and the baby boomer gentrification has upgraded all the housing to a point most lower working class can not afford them.

[Ibrahim]

Sounds to me like you should be right pissed off, noddy. Who you decide to be pissed of at is entirely up to you.

The safety net failed to catch a lot of people in the US since 2008, and there are many people sleeping in tents. They are presented with the same choice.

[Mr. Perfect]

No the safety net 2008 to present is huge, measured in several trillion dollars, and caught all kinds of rich white people. Under Obama it is incredibly good to be rich and white. Everyone else, not so much.

[noddy]

feh, the right makes some noises about individual choices and small business and thusly gets my vote most of them time but the way they treat those like gary johnson (american example) pretty much shows the truth in the noise, good luck getting the corporates off the industry standards boards... good luck setting up alternatives to the existing power players and their international corporatist agendas.. good luck challenging the middle class rules on housing and transport standards that make life so hard for the struggling ones.

much the same as the "social safety net" noises of the left actually... the reality is that the money goes into government wages and the "service" thats provided to the poor is about as useful as the corporate "customer care" service.. dont fix anything or change anything but they care....oh they care, infact they care so much they need more staff and better wages to care even more ...

[Mr. Perfect]

feh, the right makes some noises about individual choices and small business and thusly gets my vote most of them time but the way they treat those like gary johnson (american example) pretty much shows the truth in the noise, good luck getting the corporates off the industry standards boards... good luck setting up alternatives to the existing power players and their international corporatist agendas.. free and open markets et all.

Per Gary Johnson, you sort of have to get name recognition on your own. Not the best example. Ron, my guy, didn't make it but at age 115 that was sort of a handicap. Rand in the wings...

much the same as the "social safety net" noises of the left actually... the reality is that the money goes into government wages and the "service" thats provided to the poor is about as useful as the corporate "customer care" service.. dont fix anything or change anything but they care....oh they care, infact they care so much they need more staff and better wages to care even more ...

On top of if Obama put corporates on the standards boards also.

[noddy]

re: gary johnson name recognition.

how come most of the liberty orientated people in my country have heard of him then ? all my contacts in that demogaphic have.

id say its because liberty oriented right is about the same problematic fringe to the republicans as the greens are democrats.. currently... and this wont change until the boomers fade out.

re: obama corporatist support.. of course, the democrat union worker support makes them willing partners.

[Mr. Perfect]

I mean name recognition in the primaries, 3rd party candidates of any kind are rarely looked at here.