Designing a Cooperative

[Ibrahim]

Congrats Simple Minded, you just described the most corruptible kakistocracy I have ever heard of.

The "we need to rethink this whole 'democracy' business" always turns up right after elections, and always from the losing side. This is why constitutions are designed to be hard to change. Don't make major life decisions with a bad hangover.

[noddy]

i do like that chinese saying along the lines of "things that are together can only fall apart, things that are apart can only come together".

obviously a bit wishy washy and not a fixed rule, but hey..most of the western world has been pushing the limits of aggregation for a while now so its not unexpected that backlashes of autonomy might occur.. doubly so in down turns and times of change.

much easier aggregating humans in good times rather than bad times, arguments are easier to fluff over when the prosperity keeps coming.

the EU and federal america are going to be interesting to watch in terms of these qualities - if prosperity doesnt pick up soon then i do predict the west will become more like the arabs (post empire squabbling tribes) rather than the other way round

[Simple Minded]

Tinker & Mr. Perfect,

Thank you both for your compliments. High (double) praise indeed.

Every once in a while, I make it over the high bar.

I am walking on sunshine.

And here I thought sticking up for the little guy, minorities, voluntary freedom of association, or people who are vested, were good things.......

[Simple Minded]

Hopefully, this thread is not dead yet...... we still have so much work to do.

In the occupational arena (corporations, universities, etc.):
The first day any employee is hired, or any student enrolls in class, you get one vote.
For each additional year of employment/studentship, you get another vote.
This way the opinions of the most experienced/educated people carry more weight.
To add an additional dose of reality to academia (ie: ensure academia reflects the needs of society), students who graduate retain their voting privedges for 5 years.
These votes are only counted for management purposes of the cooperative.

Oh, an idea that would actually "change something." You even feel so ashamed of the rest of your diseased ideation that you were compelled to put the biggest pipe-dream first to make the rest look courageous.

Experienced employees getting a larger share of decisionmaking rights over the employer? What a marvel! And what could serve better as an impetus for every corporation to liquidate the employment pool completely, to convert almost every position to one filled by "independent contractors" for whom no pension provisions need be made, and where no position at a single company would ever need to last for more than 2 or 3 years.

This is the kind of idea designed always to be "discussed" and never quite ready for implementation. The peons are meant to be so grateful that such changes are being discussed, that they will not notice how the power structure actually works. Would this idea override voting stock? Don't expect an answer from Simpleton.

In the political arena (corporations, universities, etc.):
assuming you are a citizen and have a pulse, at age 10, you get one vote. At age 20 two votes, age 30 three votes, etc, up to a maximum of 10 votes at age 100.
Why, Cause everyone knows kids don't know anything, but we still want them to buy into the system.
For every $3,000 of income taxes you paid in the previous year, you get an additional vote up to a maximum of 50 votes.
If the rich/successful are required to pay more (their fair share), their opinions should carry more weight.
This also encourages greater participation in the political system by those are most heavily invested in society and who have the most to lose from getting financially raped by the majority.
These votes are only counted for the purpose of selecting elected officials.

Behold, the divorce of capitalism from democracy. Which side you turn out to be on surprises no one. Adams and Jefferson alike would spit upon this idea, and rightly so, for it is the thinking of a man morally deracinated, one who holds his fellow humans in intrinsic contempt, who regards others with a fear and loathing that can only be cancelled to the extent that they bear a proper Mark. I daresay a man who espoused such ideas ought to find himself expelled and unwelcome in any decent Christian congregation, of which, fortunately for you, there are none remaining.

The value of your little offering is in how it makes clear what you believe should truly determine. What is already true of your system implicitly you wish to make explicit: you wish that only those who bear Dollars are accorded "Human Rights." You wish for the Human problem to be solved by nothing other than the complete and total subjection of Human life to the ideal of "productivity." For you, no Human shall be accorded any recognition except that he contribute to the servicing of the material desires of another.

Your prayer is for atheist materialism to rule the world.

The wages of your godlessness shall be death.

Dioscuri,

Read words..... rather than attempt to read intent or emotions into......

Let go of the opinons you cherish which create your anger...... and your anger will disappear....

"the greatest battles of life are fought out daily in the silent chamberrs of the soul..."

Konquor yerself brother, not the world.......

[noddy]

i notice cass isflogging his book on fixing democracy on the other board via the mechanism of more money, more votes as a way to stop the pork barrelling.

not going to work imho - it just changes the cockup from lazy parasites to lazy rent seekers.

consent is the killer quality as far as im concerned, without it you need to have a "great" leader capable of riding over all the squabbling with successful outcomes or brutal authoritarianism.

i dont see that leadership anywhere i look, so id rather a smaller consent based groups and dont give a sh*t about the alleged benefits of larger aggregations.

sure it would be more variable and more chaotic but its all relative and the alleged safety nets and alleged benefits arent making themselves real enough for many of us anyway.

my friends and immediate family groups are borderline totally commie, once you make it out to inlaws and second cousins then its only benefit of the doubt and less levels of total support.. once you get beyond that its even less benefit of the doubt and much more capitalist.

thats quite human as far as im concerned and defies simplistic left/right capitalist/communist splits.. its all of them and none of them.. depending on cooperation and consent.

my worldview is very much utopian crap but its a pleasant thought.. to me.

[Dioscuri]

Dioscuri,

Read words..... rather than attempt to read intent or emotions into......

So, explain the value of employee voting rights over management versus holders of voting stock? . . . .

Yours is just such a transparently brilliant idea I can't keep it out of my mind.

[Marcus]

Dioscuri, . .Konquor yerself brother, not the world.......

Ah, SM, there are those who cannot distinguish between themselves and the world . . . such are, you see, gods . . . . . . and we mere humans await their enlightenment . . .

[noddy]

i must admit to being rushed and probably not reading well enough but on my meagre scan it does appear simple mindeds plan would be rent seeker heaven.

[Mr. Perfect]

Tinker & Mr. Perfect,

Thank you both for your compliments. High (double) praise indeed.

Every once in a while, I make it over the high bar.

I am walking on sunshine.

And here I thought sticking up for the little guy, minorities, voluntary freedom of association, or people who are vested, were good things.......

They are, or were, and are unbelievably idealistic.

Nowadays crushing minorities and rewarding special interests are overwhelmingly popular.

[Mr. Perfect]

i notice cass isflogging his book on fixing democracy on the other board via the mechanism of more money, more votes as a way to stop the pork barrelling.

Well it's all chain stoking, we're already over the red line, just a bunch of people dying off is left.

[noddy]

i notice cass isflogging his book on fixing democracy on the other board via the mechanism of more money, more votes as a way to stop the pork barrelling.

Well it's all chain stoking, we're already over the red line, just a bunch of people dying off is left.

stop it with the doomer pron, its making me optimistic.

[Simple Minded]

i notice cass isflogging his book on fixing democracy on the other board via the mechanism of more money, more votes as a way to stop the pork barrelling.

Well it's all chain stoking, we're already over the red line, just a bunch of people dying off is left.

stop it with the doomer pron, its making me optimistic.

Spoken like a true contrarian brother. When the herd gets optimistic, I start to worry. When the herd gets gloomy, time to smile.

[Simple Minded]

Dioscuri,

Read words..... rather than attempt to read intent or emotions into......

So, explain the value of employee voting rights over management versus holders of voting stock? . . . .

Yours is just such a transparently brilliant idea I can't keep it out of my mind.

I was addressing the concept of co-ops..... the rewarding of loyalty, and dampening the effect of newbie ignorance in a one man, one vote situation.

If noddy and two co-workers have each spent 5 years. learning the ropes, and getting to know their customers, while building their co-op, hiring four people like me, and giving them one vote each on the first day they start work just might be the kiss of death for what used to be a viable organization.

Try not to look at the negative side of human nature so often.....

[Simple Minded]

Ymix,
Would you please change the name of this thread to: Designing a Cooperative?
Countries are just too big to manage effectively, plus it might take us years just to hash out a tax plan, wage plan, and a health care plan, forget about tariffs and military…... those will take decades…..

Now, lets try to get past the ideology of cyberspace, which everyone loves, and get into the nitty-gritty reality of administration and personal responsibility, which so many find distasteful.

A. How are we going to fund our co-op?
- Agreement that everyone produces X% more than they consume? If so, what value of X is “fair?” What system of incentives and punishments do we establish? What do we do when someone fails to produce their “fair share?” What do we do when someone overproduces?

- Income (ie: production) tax? Progressive? What percentage of income/production is fair? Any deductions?

B. Do we have a group health care plan? If so, I see two big dangers.
1. Eventually, the co-op will realize that there are HUGE financial incentives to treating the members like cattle ie: the healthy/breeders/producers/tax payers get priority over the sick/impotent/non-productive/tax receivers simply due to accounting. How do we prevent that?

2. If the average cost of health care is $Y/person year, how do we keep fat, old, non-productive, perpetual abusers of ice cream, alcohol, and tobacco LIKE ME from forcing the young, the healthy, the producers, and the non-selfdestructive to pay for me self-destructive lifestyle? If we don't do something, we are creating a HUGE perverse incentive for them to join me in my wallowing self-abuse or move to noddy's niche!!!!

C. How do we reward those members of the co-op who demonstrate long term productivity and loyalty to the common good of the co-op? So far, increasing voting privileges based on competence or seniority doe not seem like a very popular idea.

C'mon dudes and dudettes!!! This is our opportunity to squat on a couple thousand hectares of cyberspace.... at no cost.... with no responsibility.... where the women are all strong, the men are all good looking, and the children are all above average, and the sheep are very, very relaxed....... we can be our own (little g) gods.....

Endovelico, where are you? You should be reading this charge!!!!

[YMix]

Ymix,
Would you please change the name of this thread to: Designing a Cooperative?

Done.

[Mr. Perfect]

i notice cass isflogging his book on fixing democracy on the other board via the mechanism of more money, more votes as a way to stop the pork barrelling.

Well it's all chain stoking, we're already over the red line, just a bunch of people dying off is left.

stop it with the doomer pron, its making me optimistic.

Spoken like a true contrarian brother. When the herd gets optimistic, I start to worry. When the herd gets gloomy, time to smile.

The herd seems pretty optimistic.

[noddy]

my optimistic is system collapse, my pessimism is grinding decline, doomer pron caters to my optimist... my realist is dunno, any ole crap might happen and that people can and will swing in all directions before they are forced to confront the issues.

seeing as my country is far further down the nanny state path than any of yours, im entitled to dream of getting more say back in my life and im not particularly worried about anarchistic chaos if the system does become weak, local versions will form fast enough to replace it and im not too much of a victim most of the time.

as for the rules of a cooperative, ive worked in several different variations and each had its own pros and cons and i was mostly happy with them all so im not that fussed about one size fits all rules, the heart of a cooperative is that you consent and cooperate and this means dealing with all this in one two one conversations and arguments and doing different things during different times.. goodtimes and badtimes need different rules.

one was very simple and you contributed 10% towards the group which covered keeping a person to do paperwork and accounting crap plus a bit of marketing and customer care but everything else was your problem, you save for you own holidays, you pay your insurances, its your money.

you didnt have to worry about a new person not pulling their weight because their was a direct relationship between job to be done and people working on that job and the payments from that job, their was no place to hide nor money for non production

others are more small business like, minimum wage for newcomers and if over time you do build relationships and trust then you make it to the next level of responsibility and it becomes more like the first version.

my current one is part of a collection of small business's financed by an asian entrepeneur who provided the office and found the original staff whom ive know for ages, he takes a higher percentage (variable, depending on situations) but we get more buffers for bad times - once you have established trust.. otherwise its minimum wage and proving yourself to everyone else.

the specifics of the cut are dependant on your ability to justify how big a buffer you want and how much you typically earn from contracts, its a person to person verbal agreement - again no space for freeloaders nor worrying about newbies making bad decisions, you get dropped straight into productive work and either sink or swim.

if and when we every got big enough to treat our new coworkers like cattle, well that would just be the test of our own personalities, id like to think we would not do so and if it got like that id probably cash out and go back to a smaller startup again.

one of the large corporates i worked for actually had a very flat structure - upper management only and the middle managing was done by empowered leading hands who worked, was the best of those i ever worked for but was a factory production environment and i got sick of night shift.

[Simple Minded]

Ymix,
Would you please change the name of this thread to: Designing a Cooperative?

Done.

Thank you Sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar!!!

[Simple Minded]

my optimistic is system collapse, my pessimism is grinding decline, doomer pron caters to my optimist... my realist is dunno, any ole crap might happen and that people can and will swing in all directions before they are forced to confront the issues.

seeing as my country is far further down the nanny state path than any of yours, im entitled to dream of getting more say back in my life and im not particularly worried about anarchistic chaos if the system does become weak, local versions will form fast enough to replace it and im not too much of a victim most of the time.

as for the rules of a cooperative, ive worked in several different variations and each had its own pros and cons and i was mostly happy with them all so im not that fussed about one size fits all rules, the heart of a cooperative is that you consent and cooperate and this means dealing with all this in one two one conversations and arguments and doing different things during different times.. goodtimes and badtimes need different rules.

one was very simple and you contributed 10% towards the group which covered keeping a person to do paperwork and accounting crap plus a bit of marketing and customer care but everything else was your problem, you save for you own holidays, you pay your insurances, its your money.

you didnt have to worry about a new person not pulling their weight because their was a direct relationship between job to be done and people working on that job and the payments from that job, their was no place to hide nor money for non production

others are more small business like, minimum wage for newcomers and if over time you do build relationships and trust then you make it to the next level of responsibility and it becomes more like the first version.

my current one is part of a collection of small business's financed by an asian entrepeneur who provided the office and found the original staff whom ive know for ages, he takes a higher percentage (variable, depending on situations) but we get more buffers for bad times - once you have established trust.. otherwise its minimum wage and proving yourself to everyone else.

the specifics of the cut are dependant on your ability to justify how big a buffer you want and how much you typically earn from contracts, its a person to person verbal agreement - again no space for freeloaders nor worrying about newbies making bad decisions, you get dropped straight into productive work and either sink or swim.

if and when we every got big enough to treat our new coworkers like cattle, well that would just be the test of our own personalities, id like to think we would not do so and if it got like that id probably cash out and go back to a smaller startup again.

one of the large corporates i worked for actually had a very flat structure - upper management only and the middle managing was done by empowered leading hands who worked, was the best of those i ever worked for but was a factory production environment and i got sick of night shift.

noddy,

Thanks for the effort you put into this reply. Sounds like cooperative in Stralia, means the same thing as capitalism in Merika.

Voting with your feet or your wallet works wonders. Amazes me that more people don't see it. Most people like freedom of association, until they think they can shackle someone else to their benefit.... especially those who have previously shackled themselves. "Throw me in chains but feed me" is a very dependable mental state/voting block.



New market idea, seems to me there might be a high demand for a product that chemically induces a state of indifference/apathy........ especially if we keep hire someone to keep pumping the ideas of Man Made Global Warming, rampant racism, fiscal cliff, end of the Mayan calender, life sucks, Germans/French/Chinese are out to get us, etc.

I'm thinking liquid, powder, pills, or something you could smoke just might sell..... least here in Merika, whadda think?

What would we call it?

[Enki]

Endo, it seems what you really want/need is a different underlying motive for modern culture. The way you organize a given government or economy won't be able to produce different outcomes if the highest aspiration for the average person is to acquire wealth and live comfortably or, ideally, luxuriously. The evolution of most overtly Marxist states into either militaristic fascist states (when that was the rage mid 20th century) and/or into oligarchies of corrupt politicos and businessmen mirroring or worse than Western capitalist states, is an example of this in action. The ideology becomes subservient to individual motivations.

You, and I think Tinker in many of his political views, require the majority of people themselves to want something better, and post-industrial consumer culture doesn't supply it. Even Spenglerites pretending that they are really motivated by religious conviction ultimately behave the same as any other consumer, and the "American Dream" have for a long time been strictly an economic one.

Yes, that's one of the reasons why the things I get involved with in OWS are practical toward actually building the "Another World is Possible". I don't go and stand outside of banks and yell at Lloyd Blankfein. Occupy Sandy has changed the lives of a great many people who now have a different perception of what is possible with a grassroots crowd-sourced united citizenry. It absolutely is a cultural change. We need to change our perception of money, debt and how we interact with one another.

Cooperatives are so the answer for independent contractors. The method that is kind of de facto here in NY with the freelance/startup culture that exists here is that people basically have networks of people they work with and throw jobs to. These are unofficial cooperatives.

[Enki]

i do like that chinese saying along the lines of "things that are together can only fall apart, things that are apart can only come together".

obviously a bit wishy washy and not a fixed rule, but hey..most of the western world has been pushing the limits of aggregation for a while now so its not unexpected that backlashes of autonomy might occur.. doubly so in down turns and times of change.

The nature of autonomy in the post-modern era is very interesting. Working with Occupy Sandy, I saw an organization consisting of several thousand autonomous individuals. Some people just wanted to be told what to put in their car and where to drive it to, other people wanted to go out scout a location and organize a distribution center. Every range from the executive, to management to the rank and file was represented in a loose hierarchy of volunteers that plugged in to the various modules at different times. I got on the chain gang to unload heavy boxes from trucks into the sanctuary of the church, but I was more in a management role most of the time.

much easier aggregating humans in good times rather than bad times, arguments are easier to fluff over when the prosperity keeps coming.

The opposite is true in my personal experience.

the EU and federal america are going to be interesting to watch in terms of these qualities - if prosperity doesnt pick up soon then i do predict the west will become more like the arabs (post empire squabbling tribes) rather than the other way round

The west is still quite prosperous all things considered. When sushi joints start closing down, I'll start to consider that New York's economy is on some sort of macro decline, but as long as I can still get Sushi delivered to my door, then I have to assume that the luxury infrastructure involved in delivering raw fish wrapped around rice is still intact. We are in a fluctuation a low period in the variance, it is far from apocalyptic in terms of losing our way of life. Some fundamental organizing principles are changing. I see contract work as being the future, rather than employment. The employer healthcare mandate is the single biggest shackle on business today, we need to move toward a more comprehensive system that doesn't burden business to hire new employees or else they are going to increasingly circumvent it by hiring contract workers that don't require such benefits.

[Ibrahim]

i do like that chinese saying along the lines of "things that are together can only fall apart, things that are apart can only come together".

obviously a bit wishy washy and not a fixed rule, but hey..most of the western world has been pushing the limits of aggregation for a while now so its not unexpected that backlashes of autonomy might occur.. doubly so in down turns and times of change.

much easier aggregating humans in good times rather than bad times, arguments are easier to fluff over when the prosperity keeps coming.

the EU and federal america are going to be interesting to watch in terms of these qualities - if prosperity doesnt pick up soon then i do predict the west will become more like the arabs (post empire squabbling tribes) rather than the other way round

IIRC that observation is from Lao Tzu, and I'm inclined to agree in principle but its a question of how quickly things fall apart. One day there will be no United States of America, and this is true of any and every other country on Earth. Will it go from 90's tech bubble to Mad Max in two decades? Well, I don't think that's a likely timetable.

[Simple Minded]

much easier aggregating humans in good times rather than bad times, arguments are easier to fluff over when the prosperity keeps coming.

The opposite is true in my personal experience.

Absolutely true Tinker. Prosperity seems to lead to pettiness faster than anything else. When times get tough, differences of opinion seem to disappear. The common bonds created from overcoming adversity last much longer than the crises itself.

I'd much rather have neighbors who have been thru the school of hard knocks, rather than those who have been spared suffering. The former seem much more compassionate than the later.

[noddy]

much easier aggregating humans in good times rather than bad times, arguments are easier to fluff over when the prosperity keeps coming.

The opposite is true in my personal experience.

Absolutely true Tinker. Prosperity seems to lead to pettiness faster than anything else. When times get tough, differences of opinion seem to disappear. The common bonds created from overcoming adversity last much longer than the crises itself.

I'd much rather have neighbors who have been thru the school of hard knocks, rather than those who have been spared suffering. The former seem much more compassionate than the later.

dont disagree with either of you - i expressed myself poorly.

you are talking about the smaller local groupings (family,small companies and coops) and in my dribble i was thinking about larger aggregations.. corporate,state,federal,prosperity union.

these larger groupings only work when their is enough prosperity that the productive parts dont mind carrying the less productive parts because their is plenty for everyone and in my experience they breakdown when the productive parts fear for their own survival.

[Mr. Perfect]

Tbh SM, I would just delete and go back to the drawing board.