The morality of Obamacare?

[Marcus]

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[Mr. Perfect]

That ship sailed Marcus, Obamacare unleashed will now go forward and destory a lot of human lives, like all leftist policy before it, and Marcus, people want it. A majority of the world wants their lives destroyed.

All we can do now is get out of the way while it happens.

[Ibrahim]

Didn't bother to watch the video, but Marcus' thread title is an interesting one.

I've seen the issue raised by various publications in Hong Kong about the morality of not having much of a social safety net in a country as wealthy as China now is. In a country like the US far more people either die or have the quality/length of their life shortened due to the absence of a health care system like those that exist in all other developed countries. Arguably that is immoral, and people in countries with no health care provisions at all believe that their situation is likewise immoral.

Yet roughly %50 of the American population wants to emulate China rather than e.g. Norway, and have more people die due to lack of medical treatment they cannot personally afford. The trade off is allegedly "more freedom," and yet Americans have already acquiesced much of their freedom to the security state post-9/11. So an American is less free, and receives worse and more expensive medical care, than a Norwegian. And this is driven by the half of the population that devotes the most rhetoric to freedom and the superiority of American culture.

It's really intriguing to watch.

[Mr. Perfect]

In a country like the US far more people either die or have the quality/length of their life shortened due to the absence of a health care system like those that exist in all other developed countries.

That is preposterous, we had medicaid and we have medicare, and most people die on medicare, the old age program that was cut by Obama. Ridiculous.

Yet roughly %50 of the American population wants to emulate China rather than e.g. Norway, and have more people die due to lack of medical treatment they cannot personally afford.

Most of the people that die die while they are on Medicare, a government program Obama cut.

The trade off is allegedly "more freedom," and yet Americans have already acquiesced much of their freedom to the security state post-9/11. So an American is less free, and receives worse and more expensive medical care, than a Norwegian.

Health care is our most regulated market. There is a regulatory body for every single state in the union. We have paid the price.

And this is driven by the half of the population that devotes the most rhetoric to freedom and the superiority of American culture.

It's really intriguing to watch.

You apparently don't watch very closely.

[Zack Morris]

Most of the people that die die while they are on Medicare, a government program Obama cut.

Strawman argument. Eliminating Medicare altogether is the Republican dream. And if Medicare is doing its job, most people will die on Medicare.

Health care is our most regulated market. There is a regulatory body for every single state in the union. We have paid the price.

Healthcare in the US was already crummy enough half a century ago that those regulations had to be put into place. Some were effective, others weren't. But for most who have encountered them, Medicare and Medicaid are a godsend. My grandfather was uninsurable and it was thanks to Medicaid that we avoided an absurd, $200K hospital bill for his treatment.

[Mr. Perfect]

Strawman argument. Eliminating Medicare altogether is the Republican dream. And if Medicare is doing its job, most people will die on Medicare.

Reality argument. People are on and on about people dying in America, well they die under government stewardship. Not my problem.

Healthcare in the US was already crummy enough half a century ago that those regulations had to be put into place.

Completely false.

Some were effective, others weren't. But for most who have encountered them, Medicare and Medicaid are a godsend. My grandfather was uninsurable and it was thanks to Medicaid that we avoided an absurd, $200K hospital bill for his treatment.

That's great, but a lot of someone's paid the cost. And the cost of that is Medicare won't be there for you even after you've paid in your whole life, along with millions and millions of other poor people.

Dude in our church just had a half million dollar surgery. My best friend is a health care actuary, there is no predicting how many people will need these surgeries or what they'll end up costing. And they will turn the light out on you as you leave.

[Zack Morris]

Given the tremendous wealth disparity in the United States, exacerbated by trickle down policies and handouts to the rich, a lot of rich somebodies should have had ample funds to cover that care. If it's ethical to collect taxes for defense, it's ethical to collect them to ensure people aren't dying for lack of money.

[Zack Morris]

Healthcare in the US was already crummy enough half a century ago that those regulations had to be put into place.

Completely false.

Access to health care has been a political issue since the turn of the 20th century. European nations began instituting socialized health care programs but the United States resisted, largely due to the AMA and private insurance companies, which were an outgrowth of early, employer-subsidized sickness programs. Then, as now, insurance companies ended up pricing sick people out of the market. After all, that's how the health insurance business model works: taking money from the healthy and refusing to disburse it to the sick.

The problem was especially acute during the Great Depression, illustrating just how fragile this system is in times of economic distress. Coupled with rising health care costs due to new technologies and the introduction of hospitals in the early 20th century, the US was left with a shitty, untenable system. US health reform activists have been trying to play catch up with Europe since the beginning, only to be thwarted decade after decade by the self-serving AMA and insurance lobbies.

There was never -- never -- a time under which the private health care model approached the efficacy of the European model.