Armed resistance

[YMix]

YMix, there's too much history of cool between us for me to be going at you personally on this or anything else. Wasn't intended that way. May be hard to believe considering all the asshole I've been dishing out, but it's true just wanted to clear that up.

My point was that firearms are not the ultimate recourse because you can't prevail against the US army, nor against the militarized police. Not if they come after you one by one, while you are defending your homes. Guerrilla war is another matter, but it depends on how far the government is willing to go. And the government has better toys.

1) You most certainly can prevail against the US Army and a militarized police with what civilians can now legally own. For one thing, if an outright ban goes into effect, half of the people in those organizations ( at least) will at the very minimum not play ball. They can frog boil it over a generation or so( and this is what I see happening), but a Feinstein move causes the feces to hit the rotating oscillator overnight.

What is left of those forces, turned against the populace, will degrade rapidly. They can make some resisted confiscations, but if it happens in a widespread fashion, the pointy things start moving very fast. This is why so much brouhaha exists about guns in America, why our foreign friends( and many domestic ones on the left as well) simply don't get the attachment. It's not because of man fetishes or crime or fear of a black planet; this issue is, has been, and will continue to be THE tripwire for armed resistance. Frankly, the invasion of privacy, due process, RICO, all the other destructions of rights have been irrelevant to this crowd ( foolishly, IMHO). The people under discussion are loyal, patriotic, overwhelmingly law abiding and entirely willing to let The Machine chew up anybody that isn't. They haven't cared when it happened to the least of these. Ignorant, selfish, self serving, I agree. But the reasoning has long been that, as long as it was all within tolerances, it didn't matter. With the Second Amendment, we can reclaim all the others. Like typical lazy Americans, they'll get around to it when they have no other choice. But they will not go to the guns until the masters tell the subjects that they can't have them any more. That is when the jig is up. This was decided long ago.

2)This is about guerilla warfare. Actually, about militia transforming into main force units. Getting a first, basic load of firearms to a guerilla force/ militia is one of the hardest points to complete in the start- up sequence of a revolution. The Second is designed to keep that step complete and ready to go at all times. Note that militia are only legitimate if they are tasked to a local or state commander; " well organized" at the time meant having a clear chain of command. Historically, militia elected their commanders, often upon gathering. If a ban occurs, all that happens fairly quickly.

3). Right now, the US Army is being fought to a standstill by people on their home turf using tools that can be bought at a Lowes or Home Depot- except for the individual arms. Considering the intangibles, and the fact that pitched battles would be the farthest thing from the mind of the resistors, I give it all a pretty good chance. In this case, winning would simply mean not losing. There would be no string of victories needed, just one unholy hell of a mess made for long enough to convince those that lacked the courage of their convictions that it just isn't worth it. It's worked before. It was called Prohibition.

I love you, too, man. No homo.

While you certainly know the situation on the ground better than I do, there are still some points I'd like to make.

1) Regarding confiscation of arms: it doesn't have to be done everywhere at once. If it happens in New York, will the south rise up against the government or will they say "genuflect the New Yorkers, they deserve it"? Some regions, some people can certainly be played against each other. Or, at least, selective confiscation can be used to delay any response from the citizenry. Waco and Ruby Ridge caused some resentment, but no armed revolt.

2) This is one of the major differences between USA and Europe and it's what well-meaning, but misinformed people, such as monster gardener, fail to grasp when they think that more guns would've helped Eastern Europe stand up to the Soviets. We have little in the way of military tradition among the population, we don't have a fascination with weapons and firearms are of little use in the plains. Up in the mountains, where people need to defend themselves and their sheep from bears, wild boars and wolves, it's a different matter. But even there, few people own weapons and fewer still have any need of them. And, yes, we had our partisans in the mountains. Every Eastern European country must have had them. They fought the communists until around 1950, if I remember correctly. It didn't really help in any way.

3) The US Army is being fought at a standstill because it fights the wrong people the wrong way. While some people in the USA are itching to rise up against the hated Gobmint, the government is also on home ground. They've got the tanks, planes, helicopters and drones. They've got the money and the industrial capacity. The people have enthusiasm, weapons and a short attention span.

[monster_gardener]

YMix, there's too much history of cool between us for me to be going at you personally on this or anything else. Wasn't intended that way. May be hard to believe considering all the asshole I've been dishing out, but it's true just wanted to clear that up.

My point was that firearms are not the ultimate recourse because you can't prevail against the US army, nor against the militarized police. Not if they come after you one by one, while you are defending your homes. Guerrilla war is another matter, but it depends on how far the government is willing to go. And the government has better toys.

1) You most certainly can prevail against the US Army and a militarized police with what civilians can now legally own. For one thing, if an outright ban goes into effect, half of the people in those organizations ( at least) will at the very minimum not play ball. They can frog boil it over a generation or so( and this is what I see happening), but a Feinstein move causes the feces to hit the rotating oscillator overnight.

What is left of those forces, turned against the populace, will degrade rapidly. They can make some resisted confiscations, but if it happens in a widespread fashion, the pointy things start moving very fast. This is why so much brouhaha exists about guns in America, why our foreign friends( and many domestic ones on the left as well) simply don't get the attachment. It's not because of man fetishes or crime or fear of a black planet; this issue is, has been, and will continue to be THE tripwire for armed resistance. Frankly, the invasion of privacy, due process, RICO, all the other destructions of rights have been irrelevant to this crowd ( foolishly, IMHO). The people under discussion are loyal, patriotic, overwhelmingly law abiding and entirely willing to let The Machine chew up anybody that isn't. They haven't cared when it happened to the least of these. Ignorant, selfish, self serving, I agree. But the reasoning has long been that, as long as it was all within tolerances, it didn't matter. With the Second Amendment, we can reclaim all the others. Like typical lazy Americans, they'll get around to it when they have no other choice. But they will not go to the guns until the masters tell the subjects that they can't have them any more. That is when the jig is up. This was decided long ago.

2)This is about guerilla warfare. Actually, about militia transforming into main force units. Getting a first, basic load of firearms to a guerilla force/ militia is one of the hardest points to complete in the start- up sequence of a revolution. The Second is designed to keep that step complete and ready to go at all times. Note that militia are only legitimate if they are tasked to a local or state commander; " well organized" at the time meant having a clear chain of command. Historically, militia elected their commanders, often upon gathering. If a ban occurs, all that happens fairly quickly.

3). Right now, the US Army is being fought to a standstill by people on their home turf using tools that can be bought at a Lowes or Home Depot- except for the individual arms. Considering the intangibles, and the fact that pitched battles would be the farthest thing from the mind of the resistors, I give it all a pretty good chance. In this case, winning would simply mean not losing. There would be no string of victories needed, just one unholy hell of a mess made for long enough to convince those that lacked the courage of their convictions that it just isn't worth it. It's worked before. It was called Prohibition.

I love you, too, man. No homo.

While you certainly know the situation on the ground better than I do, there are still some points I'd like to make.

1) Regarding confiscation of arms: it doesn't have to be done everywhere at once. If it happens in New York, will the south rise up against the government or will they say "genuflect the New Yorkers, they deserve it"? Some regions, some people can certainly be played against each other. Or, at least, selective confiscation can be used to delay any response from the citizenry. Waco and Ruby Ridge caused some resentment, but no armed revolt.

2) This is one of the major differences between USA and Europe and it's what well-meaning, but misinformed people, such as monster gardener, fail to grasp when they think that more guns would've helped Eastern Europe stand up to the Soviets. We have little in the way of military tradition among the population, we don't have a fascination with weapons and firearms are of little use in the plains. Up in the mountains, where people need to defend themselves and their sheep from bears, wild boars and wolves, it's a different matter. But even there, few people own weapons and fewer still have any need of them. And, yes, we had our partisans in the mountains. Every Eastern European country must have had them. They fought the communists until around 1950, if I remember correctly. It didn't really help in any way.

3) The US Army is being fought at a standstill because it fights the wrong people the wrong way. While some people in the USA are itching to rise up against the hated Gobmint, the government is also on home ground. They've got the tanks, planes, helicopters and drones. They've got the money and the industrial capacity. The people have enthusiasm, weapons and a short attention span.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, YMix.

well-meaning, but misinformed people, such as monster gardener,

And Very Sincere Thanks for the VERY Kind Words....... No irony intended........

Thanks again.

This is one of the major differences between USA and Europe and it's what well-meaning, but misinformed people, such as monster gardener, fail to grasp when they think that more guns would've helped Eastern Europe stand up to the Soviets.

You have boots on the ground in Eastern Europe..... It is very possible that I am misinformed/mistaken.......... See my tagline

But actually what I usually have in mind is the Nazis rather than the Soviets........

The Soviets did have a higher body count but IMVHO they were the lesser evil as with them it was at least theoretically possible that one could survive by making friends with the Monster

With the Nazis, usually if you were the wrong sort of person.........

As the Burns poem goes..... It was

Free Man stand or Free Man Fall........

There's Liberty in Every Blow.......

It is Do or Die.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_Wha_Hae

So much better to have been partisan than to have submitted and been killed anyway.......

You know the Euroz much better than I do so am not going to dispute about temperament........

Regarding Terrain effects, Mountains vs. Plains..........

What about Cities?

Lots of the vile Weather Underground was underground for years before surrendering.......

Granted that we did not have the number of public video cameras we have now let alone what England has or "America's Most Wanted"

I hope DOU is right about an armed resistance winning against a Fudderal Government............

I might resist but OTOH given my age & health, if Uz goes Handmaids R Uz, I would be tempted to head South or North then South or something similar**

And guns might be part of doing that........

This presumes there is someplace tolerable to go to......

A reason I despise the idea of World Government..........

World Government Gone Wild & Bad means no where to go........

But Resistance is better than submission if there is no reasonable option

And the Nazis & others have left us with a well founded suspicion of options that sound reasonable..........


Guns are a last resort........

Much of their utility for protecting freedom is before they are used........

Sort of like the Fleet in Being theory....... Just by existing the enemy has to take it into consideration......

And guns can be a targeted "retail" means of resistance compared to bombs which are often much more wholesale........

Shoot Huey Long as opposed to blowing him up along with a lot of relatively innocents..........*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long#Assassination

Is that what Euroz plan to use if things get bad there........?

Or is it Sheeple to the Slaughter again if you get another REAL Bad one..........

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,

Know when to walk away, know when to run.

Think Kenny Rogers had it right except for needing a stanza about Knowing when to Have, Hold and Use a Gun....

Or other weapon..........


Jj4nJ1YEAp4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj4nJ1YEAp4



* Even with guns, be careful that you don't become a John Wilkes Booth........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wilkes_Booth

Rather than a John Wilkes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wilkes

Or Carl Weiss.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Weiss

And some would say that Carl Weiss did wrong too.......

** except in the unlikely event I can go Up & Out...Moon and Beyond.......

[YMix]

So much better to have been partisan than to have submitted and been killed anyway.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_a ... e_movement

More at that link.

Regarding Terrain effects, Mountains vs. Plains..........

What about Cities?

CEE countries are kind of small. Not much room to hide. Your country is much bigger, but, then again, your government has far better toys.

A reason I despise the idea of World Government..........

World Government Gone Wild & Bad means no where to go........

Don't like that either, myself. Our local government is bad enough.

Is that what Euroz plan to use if things get bad there........?

Or is it Sheeple to the Slaughter again if you get another REAL Bad one..........

I don't know what other Europeans plan to do. But unlike your country, Europeans have a far longer and bloodier experience with revolutions and revolts. Romania alone had, in the 20th century, a revolution (1989) and a peasants' revolt (1907), not to mention the Braşov Rebellion of 1986.

[Endovelico]

I don't know what other Europeans plan to do. But unlike your country, Europeans have a far longer and bloodier experience with revolutions and revolts.

Europeans do not plan anything. Revolutions are not planned, they just happen. Of course conditions must exist for a revolution to occur, but what triggers them is impossible to know beforehand. Sometimes, for some unpredictable reason, hundreds of thousands of people decide to go on the streets and demand something which may not even be the most important thing at that moment. And then they decide to invade parliament, or they just go and shoot the prime-minister, or throw him out of a window, and then there is no way to stop the revolution. And what does revolution bring to the people? Nobody knows. It may be more and better democracy, or a military dictatorship, or chaos. One thing I know: in Portugal we all want a change of government and a change of policies, and very few people have any clear idea of what that means. Revolutions are like major earthquakes. We know what it destroys, but we don't know beforehand how we are going to rebuild. But if things are bad enough, nobody cares, as long as the destructive bit is carried out.

[Enki]

Americans especially right wing Americans adore the state. Ther is no resistance to government here. Look at the European protests. There is a greater anti government sentiment in Europe than in America. Our notion of rugged individualism is a complete myth. We are the meekest group of collectivists on the planet.

Don't believe the hype.

[Huxley]

From the bygone days of the Spengler forum...

I'd love to be able to wave a magic wand and make America the kind of place Britain was forty years ago, where cops and criminals never carried guns by tacit mutual agreement. But the U.S. is miles from there, and always may be. The number of cops getting shot is saddening. But I suspect far more of their lives could be saved by legalising most drugs, controlling our borders, and embracing equality of economic opportunity with greater commitment, than by banning weapons. Furthermore, this is in principle a distinct issue from the issue of gun ownership. There are places where the whole population is armed to the teeth, but crime and crime suppression remain genteelly non-violent, e.g., Switzerland.

The right of revolution is inseparable from the right of popular self-government, and hence part of America's "calling," of what makes it more than just another nation, and the right to bear arms (although I don't use it) including arms capable of offering some resistance to a professional military, is an integral part of that right of revolution. People engaged in the business of government can and should find that right and its physical manifestation in an armed population comforting rather than threatening; it's part of what makes governing, at least in America, more than just another job. Throwing it over seems a bit like trying to write poetry without meter or rhyme or consonance or alliteration; the constraints are what makes the art, and what make it worth doing.

What I truly cannot understand is how the right of revolution, including the right to bear militarily effective arms, cannot be cherished by a political "left." What kind of a "left" is that? Certainly not any left I can relate to. Not the left of the burgher's revolt in the Netherlands, nor of the English peasant rebellion, nor of the Italian ciompi, nor of the French Jacquerie, in the 14th century. Not the left of the German peasants' revolt of the 1520s. Not the left of Cromwell's Puritans, nor of the New England minutemen, nor the French Revolution, nor the barricades of 1848. I think it's a "left" that has quite lost all sense of history, and the all-too-likely challenges of the future. It's a left that has come to take democracy for granted. Non-violence should always be the first resort; but arms must always be available as a last resort.

-- Collingwood (Mon Mar 02, 2009)

[Ibrahim]

Americans especially right wing Americans adore the state. Ther is no resistance to government here. Look at the European protests. There is a greater anti government sentiment in Europe than in America. Our notion of rugged individualism is a complete myth. We are the meekest group of collectivists on the planet.

Don't believe the hype.

I agree with this entirely. Not only are North Americans extremely passive towards the government compared to Europeans, but many will actively attack those who do organize and oppose the government, even if they are acting within the law. North American society is far more conformist and statist than Europe or even East Asia. I might argue that the myth of individualism and self-reliance is precisely what allows North Americans to be so servile relative to other peoples, but that's more of a philosophical question.




Though I'm also inclined to agree with the gun crowd who argue that an American (and I would add North American) insurgency, if one were to actually take place, would be nearly impossible to stamp out. Look at the trouble that armed insurgents have already given the US military in environments where there was less organized civilian gun training, and the US military was less concerned about killing civilians. Why would it work any better here?

[Doc]

Americans especially right wing Americans adore the state. Ther is no resistance to government here. Look at the European protests. There is a greater anti government sentiment in Europe than in America. Our notion of rugged individualism is a complete myth. We are the meekest group of collectivists on the planet.

Don't believe the hype.

Hmmm Rugged individualists not signing up for the mass protests. Who woulda thought.....

[Enki]

Doc

Succinct analysis of how they allowed their rights to be taken.

[Doc]

Doc

Succinct analysis of how they allowed their rights to be taken.

I think the prepers think along the lines that government will fail after the protests and they plan to be there to pick up the pieces.

However we are ignoring something here. As far as protest go the Tea party made a few. For their efforts as a lose group of individuals the press and the democrats did everything they could to dump on them. But they do qualify as something other than meek even if they were non violent.

[Enki]

Except the Tea Party never stood up for the rights of their political adversaries. So now, they wil lose theirs and no one will stand up for them.

If standing up to a tyrannical government is your thing, now is the time.

[Demon of Undoing]

The right doesn't protest in America. They have jobs. However, when the left wonders at the general consensus and cohesion on the right ( no, Virginia, it is NOT a Big Tent party), what they are seeing is the right's way of protesting. Just because they aren't out in the streets with posterboard signs means nothing. They'd rather win elections, which in the postwar period, they have. Look at state and local offices. Look at where gun rights are now, arguably beyond even the constitutional allowance. Look what happens to this next legislative initiative when it hits congress. What, exactly, has anything less than MLK Jr- level protesting ever got anybody recently, exactly? Why are you shocked that gun owners don't act like hippies in the streets?

Even aside from the fact that they'd rather not play drums and wear skirts while screaming catchy chants, and that they are active in a far more productive manner ( any quotes from any grabbers on how ineffective the NRA is ? No? Why's that?), again, people are misunderstanding the very nature of what a tripwire is. They may look passive, may look all lawnorder- right up until they aren't. It's an unconstitutional grab that's the very thing ( possibly the only thing) that will make them lose that respect and complacency. Most don't think it will come to that because they are frankly winning the issue to the point where Dems have declared the issue a no- go. It didn't get that way because bongo players and chicks with hairy pits. All the other rights arguments can get jawed around with legalese and disputed relevancy until there's no solid ground for even a united conservative base to agree to disagree with. But guns and the Second amendment are very concrete, very easy to understand where it all lies. Again, a very bright, very bold line.

[Demon of Undoing]

Quotes to be overheard from the failed attempts to put down an armed revolt:

"All guardposts fully manned. We don't know how they got sugar into every fuel tank in every armored vehicle on the post. Nor who started the engines. "

" No, sir. None of the trucks have made it here yet."

"Well, where the hell does every NCO in a combat battalion go to, anyways? "

[Endovelico]

...It didn't get that way because bongo players and chicks with hairy pits...

Funny how some people on the right seem to think that the left is all folklore... At least in my country 99% of the thinking comes from the left. The right's only effort is to try and lift our common greedy instincts to the category of a desirable trait of humanity. Wolves eat sheep, period. The right has no sense of ethics. At most - living in a Catholic country - they try to replace ethics with some vague religious platitudes, ignoring everything the Church has said about the "preference for the poor", and never having read Paul VI's encyclical "Populorum progressio". The right is incapable of thinking of any alternative to capitalism and try, at most and if they are good intentioned, to give rise to a capitalism with a human face, replacing rights with charity. Yes, there are bongo players and chicks with hairy pits on the left, but at least they care about other people and they strive to make the world a better and more ethical place. They may believe a bit too much in Santa Claus, but at least they believe in something and they know they live in a community, not in the jungle.

[monster_gardener]

I don't know what other Europeans plan to do. But unlike your country, Europeans have a far longer and bloodier experience with revolutions and revolts.

Europeans do not plan anything. Revolutions are not planned, they just happen. Of course conditions must exist for a revolution to occur, but what triggers them is impossible to know beforehand. Sometimes, for some unpredictable reason, hundreds of thousands of people decide to go on the streets and demand something which may not even be the most important thing at that moment. And then they decide to invade parliament, or they just go and shoot the prime-minister, or throw him out of a window, and then there is no way to stop the revolution. And what does revolution bring to the people? Nobody knows. It may be more and better democracy, or a military dictatorship, or chaos. One thing I know: in Portugal we all want a change of government and a change of policies, and very few people have any clear idea of what that means. Revolutions are like major earthquakes. We know what it destroys, but we don't know beforehand how we are going to rebuild. But if things are bad enough, nobody cares, as long as the destructive bit is carried out.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.

Europeans do not plan anything.

Really?

Things do not always turn out the way they plan from Thousand Year Reichs to World Wide Dictatorships of the Proletariat down to the Idea that the Euroz Union is going to help Portugal and other PIIG states because it is 'the right thing to do'.

FWIS Euros/Euroz plan/plot constantly from the top all the way down to the cellular level oops I mean Communist Conspiracy Cell level

Revolutions are not planned, they just happen.

Again, they do not always turn out the way the plotters plot........

Revolutionary LobsterThermidor anyone ..... Calling Rob Pierre to Pay Paul ...... oops I mean Robespierre, its your turn on the guillotine...

Lots of other examples from that period and since ...............

Including a sealed train car to Russia.............

Sometimes a revolt may happen that seems to be the way you describe but it is best to be suspicious.......

And what does revolution bring to the people? Nobody knows. It may be more and better democracy, or a military dictatorship, or chaos. One thing I know: in Portugal we all want a change of government and a change of policies, and very few people have any clear idea of what that means. Revolutions are like major earthquakes. We know what it destroys, but we don't know beforehand how we are going to rebuild.

If that is what is going on in Portugal, it sounds like you are On the Slopes of Vesuvius. I would suggest taking a long vacation somewhere else simpatico

But if things are bad enough, nobody cares, as long as the destructive bit is carried out

Unless you are into anarchy and chaos.......

[monster_gardener]

...It didn't get that way because bongo players and chicks with hairy pits...

Funny how some people on the right seem to think that the left is all folklore... At least in my country 99% of the thinking comes from the left. The right's only effort is to try and lift our common greedy instincts to the category of a desirable trait of humanity. Wolves eat sheep, period. The right has no sense of ethics. At most - living in a Catholic country - they try to replace ethics with some vague religious platitudes, ignoring everything the Church has said about the "preference for the poor", and never having read Paul VI's encyclical "Populorum progressio". The right is incapable of thinking of any alternative to capitalism and try, at most and if they are good intentioned, to give rise to a capitalism with a human face, replacing rights with charity. Yes, there are bongo players and chicks with hairy pits on the left, but at least they care about other people and they strive to make the world a better and more ethical place. They may believe a bit too much in Santa Claus, but at least they believe in something and they know they live in a community, not in the jungle.

2 Wolves & a Well Armed Sheep Go into a Restaurant & Bar....

Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.

Wolves eat sheep, period.

Quite Right

Which is why some of those on the Right define Democracy as practiced by Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey Humans as 2 Wolves and a Sheep voting on what's for lunch while a Constitutional Democratic Republic as being 2 Wolves and a VERY Well Armed Sheep negotiating the menu choice down to cheese sandwiches and milk.......

Some of those on the Right*, like me want to make sure that the sheep are armed with guns and other weapons......

BTW, I don't mind the bongo drums and topless chicks with hairy OR shaved pits....

Reminds me of a Biker Rally.............

Public Nudity as a spectator sport can be fun......

Though I draw the line at Free Dung

Unless it is well composted with a Process to Significantly Reduce Pathogens...........

Even then best used for flowers and ornamentals....


*Or whatever I am .......... Hopefully less wrong .............

[noddy]

...It didn't get that way because bongo players and chicks with hairy pits...

Funny how some people on the right seem to think that the left is all folklore... At least in my country 99% of the thinking comes from the left. The right's only effort is to try and lift our common greedy instincts to the category of a desirable trait of humanity. Wolves eat sheep, period. The right has no sense of ethics. At most - living in a Catholic country - they try to replace ethics with some vague religious platitudes, ignoring everything the Church has said about the "preference for the poor", and never having read Paul VI's encyclical "Populorum progressio". The right is incapable of thinking of any alternative to capitalism and try, at most and if they are good intentioned, to give rise to a capitalism with a human face, replacing rights with charity. Yes, there are bongo players and chicks with hairy pits on the left, but at least they care about other people and they strive to make the world a better and more ethical place. They may believe a bit too much in Santa Claus, but at least they believe in something and they know they live in a community, not in the jungle.

platitudes indeed.

shame its all hogsh*t from both sides, liberty from the right and care from the left.... complete and utter hogsh*it wrapped in hogsh*t then dipped in hogsh*t and then sprinkled in hogsh*t.

reality makes a mockery of platitudes and the hollow ones are starting to show. right wing individual freedom ? left wing saftey nets for all ?
hogsh*t... paranoid security state and 10's of thousands of homeless families.

on topic - its still not bad enough for chaos and if the frog boiling remains at a slow generational pace it never will be.

oh, and english spawned wasp types dont really do chaotic revolution from my vague sense of history, they tend to work with the system, thats a hot blooded euro thing.

[Demon of Undoing]

...It didn't get that way because bongo players and chicks with hairy pits...

Funny how some people on the right seem to think that the left is all folklore... At least in my country 99% of the thinking comes from the left. The right's only effort is to try and lift our common greedy instincts to the category of a desirable trait of humanity. Wolves eat sheep, period. The right has no sense of ethics. At most - living in a Catholic country - they try to replace ethics with some vague religious platitudes, ignoring everything the Church has said about the "preference for the poor", and never having read Paul VI's encyclical "Populorum progressio". The right is incapable of thinking of any alternative to capitalism and try, at most and if they are good intentioned, to give rise to a capitalism with a human face, replacing rights with charity. Yes, there are bongo players and chicks with hairy pits on the left, but at least they care about other people and they strive to make the world a better and more ethical place. They may believe a bit too much in Santa Claus, but at least they believe in something and they know they live in a community, not in the jungle.

I don't care which side of that irrelevant line anybody in America is on. All I know is that , in regards to this issue, one side wants to further weaken the ability of the people to resist the state- again, in the name of a useless and counterfactual " compassion"- and the other side has resisted that very well and with every legal tool at their disposal. I'm very nearly a single- issue supporter of the right in this country because of that.

We've got more guns here than ever before, more made every day, and we're at the lowest rates of gun deaths in our modern history. May not be causal, but can't be ignored. On this, the American left has absolutely zero to stand upon. They fail at both reality and sentiment. That can't be ignored.

[Hoosiernorm]

It's probably more of an armed panic than it is an armed resistance. When in doubt buy a gun, it's always worth something. Plus it gives a level of personal comfort that the user just doesn't seem to be able to possess any other way. It can set and rust in a closet and never be cleaned but the owner feels safer about themselves for having the thing around. Just wait until the handbill folks start telling NRA members that they are only going to disarm the "white" gun owners, it'll be like printing money at the arms manufacturers.

[YMix]

shame its all hogsh*t from both sides, liberty from the right and care from the left.... complete and utter hogsh*it wrapped in hogsh*t then dipped in hogsh*t and then sprinkled in hogsh*t.

And a Happy New Year to you, too.

[Enki]

Demon, all if those cliches are utterly beside the point. The right has hated the ACLU for years. They have no problem with abridging the first amendnent which is BY FAR more important than the second. The second exists to protect the first. They always cheered when those damn hippies got thrown in the clink. Now the right they care about is under attack but the government knows they are not serious people. They didn't rise up our even write their congressman about the encroachment on the first amendment over the past 70 years. So the government knows they are sheep ready for sheering.

There is no principle right wing, 'I may not ager with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.' On the right. The tolerances are understood. There will be no second amendment solution ever. The rugged individuals like yourself will meekly surrender their guns as they surrendered their right to fee speech, their right not to incriminate themselves, their right to legislate at the state level and their right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure.

Some will clutch their rifle, tuck their tails, and run to Patagonia but Patagonia won't exist in Generation either.

[noddy]

shame its all hogsh*t from both sides, liberty from the right and care from the left.... complete and utter hogsh*it wrapped in hogsh*t then dipped in hogsh*t and then sprinkled in hogsh*t.

And a Happy New Year to you, too.

=] im home and drunk, tis a good new years, hope you and everyone else has one aswell.

heres to the hogsh*t, its not going anywhere.

[Doc]

Except the Tea Party never stood up for the rights of their political adversaries. So now, they wil lose theirs and no one will stand up for them.

If standing up to a tyrannical government is your thing, now is the time.

Huh? All the tea party was about was the debt and dislike of Obamacare. What has standing up for the rights of political adversaries have to do with it?

[YMix]

=] im home and drunk, tis a good new years, hope you and everyone else has one aswell.

heres to the hogsh*t, its not going anywhere.

Australians have beaten us to the New Year again!

genuflecting New Year, how does it work???

[monster_gardener]

So much better to have been partisan than to have submitted and been killed anyway.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_a ... e_movement

More at that link.

Regarding Terrain effects, Mountains vs. Plains..........

What about Cities?

CEE countries are kind of small. Not much room to hide. Your country is much bigger, but, then again, your government has far better toys.

A reason I despise the idea of World Government..........

World Government Gone Wild & Bad means no where to go........

Don't like that either, myself. Our local government is bad enough.

Is that what Euroz plan to use if things get bad there........?

Or is it Sheeple to the Slaughter again if you get another REAL Bad one..........

I don't know what other Europeans plan to do. But unlike your country, Europeans have a far longer and bloodier experience with revolutions and revolts. Romania alone had, in the 20th century, a revolution (1989) and a peasants' revolt (1907), not to mention the Braşov Rebellion of 1986.

The Plan of Carmen San Diego: Re: Kenny Rogers & Armed resistance.....

Thank You VERY MUCH for your reply, Ymix.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_a ... e_movement

Thank you for the link.

One disturbing note: many of the most important seem to have come from the anti-Semitic Iron Guard.....

Was more familiar with the Polish Situation: Cursed Soldiers etc......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_soldiers

One advantage Poles had was the traditional antagonism between the Nation State/Empire and the Catholic Church.....

Not that the Poles weren't major anti-Semites as Jews who tried to return after WW2 found out to their sorrow.......

AIUI in Eastern Europe, the Orthodox Church was more under the thumb of the Government.........

Again......... Know When to Walk Away, Know When to Run........

When it gets that bad, time to think about using your gun to get across the border(s) to some place better......

Don't like that either, myself. Our local government is bad enough.

Where I live in Uz, at the City Level it has some problems but is not bad....

The Mayor comes on the local talk show and listens to complaints and problems from the callers......

I don't know what other Europeans plan to do. But unlike your country, Europeans have a far longer and bloodier experience with revolutions and revolts. Romania alone had, in the 20th century, a revolution (1989) and a peasants' revolt (1907), not to mention the Braşov Rebellion of 1986.

You are probably right..... Don't know how the Uz Civil War body count compares with yours but though it was the worst for Uz IIRC you also had Countess Lizzie Bathory who by far out-did Lizzie Borden the little uz who got mad at Mommie and Daddy..........

And Vlad Dracul who besides what he did to Turks who were Jerks also did a Holocaust on the Germans in Romania....


But we too have had some close calls......

Remembering the San Diego Plan Plot in Texas about 1915.......

the Plan de San Diego, named for a small Texas town. This revolutionary manifesto called for a revolt against the United States to begin on February 20, 1915 and establishment of an independent Mexican American republic on lands seized from Mexico by the United States in 1848. The plan also called for an army consisting of Mexican Americans, blacks, and Japanese to kill all whites over the age of sixteen

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_t ... &psid=3692

21 Anglo Uz and ~300 to 5,000 Mexicans & Tejanos were dead before it was over......

Endo's assertion that revolutions are not planned and his call for Uz to take up arms are IMVHO murderously foolish.....

Likely that he, Ibrahim and others would be complaining about how bad we uz were and how we lacked "humanitat" before it was over.....

My mongrel clan has Anglos/Euroz, Hispanos including Mejicanos, Blacks, Asians and many in betweeners ......

If a revolution begins...... many of uz are probably going to die in nasty ways........

So I don't want to see it start but if it does........

Rulez often go out the window when wars start.........

Note some of the rulez of San Diego........

(5) "It is strictly forbidden to hold prisoners, either special prisoners (civilians) or soldiers; and the only time that should be spent in dealing with them is that which is absolutely necessary to demand funds (loans) of them; and whether these demands be successful or not, they shall be shot immediately without any pretext."*

(6) "Every foreigner who shall be found armed and cannot prove his right to carry arms, shall be summarily executed, regardless of his race or nationality."

(7) "Every North American over sixteen years of age shall be put to death; and only the aged men, the women, and the children shall be respected; and on no account shall the traitors to our race be spared of respected."

*Rather like the Germans and "Arbeit Macht Frei"........ Makes one not want to trust at all.........