The U.K.

[Zack Morris]

Note: spelling and punctuation errors due to these posts being made on iPhone. A modern miracle in the palm of even "homeless" Americans. Utopian prosperity literally in our grasp!

[Mr. Perfect]

So I guess you didn't read your own post.

Why would the EU fail everywhere except Britain.

[Mr. Perfect]

Progressive policies have brought near-utopia to developed countries. Life in the US and Europe was terrible prior to the 1930's. Citizens had few rights, even fewer luxuries, and no dignity.

Today, all are awash in prosperity and largely conflict-free existence facilitated in no small part by a shift in how government's provide for their citizens and interact with each other.

Noisy grumbling is due to lack of perspective. Small problems amplified into stupid-fest of modern conservative politics. We have landed gentry here living high on the hog, with ample liesure time to rail on social media (this forum) about zoning laws infringing on their right to living zoning law-free and imaginary Aztlan/Mexican secession movement in a part of the country they don't live or visit. Tell tale signs of utopian status.

Tl;dnr much.

Unfettered progressivism created Venezuela. Capitalism created your phone. Qed.

Back to the drawing board for you.

[Zack Morris]

EU as a political body has well known failures. That's only partly what drove Brexit, which played up immigration and alleged harm caused by free trade. Those things are not going away. EU political framework will inevitably be replaced. Mobility and free trade will remain in whatever new order emerges. Brexiters will get none of what they wanted: no protectionism, no reversal of immigration, no magical increase in NHS spending from imaginary EU savings.

[Zack Morris]

Progressive policies have brought near-utopia to developed countries. Life in the US and Europe was terrible prior to the 1930's. Citizens had few rights, even fewer luxuries, and no dignity.

Today, all are awash in prosperity and largely conflict-free existence facilitated in no small part by a shift in how government's provide for their citizens and interact with each other.

Noisy grumbling is due to lack of perspective. Small problems amplified into stupid-fest of modern conservative politics. We have landed gentry here living high on the hog, with ample liesure time to rail on social media (this forum) about zoning laws infringing on their right to living zoning law-free and imaginary Aztlan/Mexican secession movement in a part of the country they don't live or visit. Tell tale signs of utopian status.

Tl;dnr much.

Unfettered progressivism created Venezuela. Capitalism created your phone. Qed.

Back to the drawing board for you.

Venezuela neither progressive nor modern. Nothing demonstrated.

Any model conservative countries? Pakistan perhaps? Limited central government, widespread firearm ownership, lax regulatory environment, pro-family and pro-religion attitudes. "Average Joe" runs the show and can be himself.

Indonesia also a conservative paradise.

[Mr. Perfect]

EU as a political body has well known failures. That's only partly what drove Brexit, which played up immigration and alleged harm caused by free trade. Those things are not going away. EU political framework will inevitably be replaced. Mobility and free trade will remain in whatever new order emerges. Brexiters will get none of what they wanted: no protectionism, no reversal of immigration, no magical increase in NHS spending from imaginary EU savings.

So why are you guys throwing tantrums about the Brexit then. Are you reading these before posting.

[Mr. Perfect]

Venezuela neither progressive nor modern.

Venezuela is not modern because it fully embraced progressivism.

Nothing demonstrated.

I demonstrated that your phone was made by capitalism and not progressivism. Still waiting on a Venezuela phone.

Any model conservative countries? Pakistan perhaps? Limited central government, widespread firearm ownership, lax regulatory environment, pro-family and pro-religion attitudes. "Average Joe" runs the show and can be himself.

Indonesia also a conservative paradise.

1980's Reaganism is more what we're going for. Here in America he is considered our greatest President, and for good reason.

[Typhoon]

Quillette | Remain vs Leave: Elite Technocracy vs Liberal Democracy

[YMix]

Any model conservative countries? Pakistan perhaps? Limited central government, widespread firearm ownership, lax regulatory environment, pro-family and pro-religion attitudes. "Average Joe" runs the show and can be himself.

Indonesia also a conservative paradise.

Not a model, but getting there:

Like Orbán in Hungary, Kaczyński is suspected by many of his opponents of seeking to elevate a new rank of elites, through the creation of an economy with heavy state control. During his speech, he denounced Leszek Balcerowicz, the liberal economist whose 1989 shock therapy is widely credited for Poland’s post-Communist economic rise, and announced a program aimed at creating a “new redistribution of wealth.” And then, after thanking the delegates for his nearly unanimous election as party leader, he concluded: “I see this result as a vote of confidence, but also an authorization to be the real, true leader of this great movement of change.”

[Zack Morris]

Lol the Reagan economy is exactly what we have now: an economy that has exacerbated the trade deficit and empowered the financial sector above all others. Obvious failure. YMix is right, looks like Poland is becoming the conservative model state.

[Torchwood]

Quillette | Remain vs Leave: Elite Technocracy vs Liberal Democracy

Problem is, the EU is neither one thing nor another. It should either be a fully fledged federal state, with the European Parliament granted primacy over national parliaments which become equivalent to US states; or a purely free trade area for goods and services, a WTO without tariffs, with member states retaining control over flows of capital and labour. In both cases economic efficiency and democracy are then reconciled.

The three fiascos from this have been the Euro and Schengen (only workable in a proper federal state) and flows of labour from low income Eastern Europe to the West. The UK avoided the first two, but is most affected by the latter. The problem with "ever closer union" is that I cannot see France ever really agreeing to a fully federal state, the national identity is too strong, at a lesser scale that is also true of the Netherlands and Scandinavia (and probably Poland). Italy and Germany are different, unified late and it did not work out too well.

The UK will face a stark choice in the negotiations with the EU:
either EEA single market acccess, less sovereignty (still follow some EU rules without a say in them) plus still free movement of labour
no agreement and go to WTO rules, which are unsatisfactory for services where the UK runs a surplus, economic implosion, City of London badly hit.

I go with the first, because Leave will be betrayed but their voters wont be so poor. Everyone then becomes unhappy with the result, politics as usual

[Parodite]

It just beats me that Remain people so easily and cheaply want to give up their sovereignty, giving away their democratic rights to unelected officials in Brussels with only one (disputable!) argument: it costs us money. They take the bribes offered by the bureaucratic dictatorship, the oligarchy of career politicians, banksters and big corp who designed all this. Those who take the bribe are guilty of treason.

Single market is fine and profitable for all in Europe. But the free movement of people will be destructive. European countries hardly recovered from centuries long bloody territorial conflict, the nation states that emerged from that Hell just started to harmonize from within and be in peaceful interdependence economically. Finally a peaceful European neighborhood was emerging. Things went all in the right direction. Eastern European countries got rid of Russia's rapist dick, are in the process of getting rid of their own local dictatorships and building healthy democracies and prosperity.

At this point trying to force these countries and cultures into one EU mold is insane. The free movement of people in particular is destructive. No EU member state is able to decide who lives and works in their country anymore. This is just fuels all the wrong sentiments and mechanisms that tortured Europe for ages. And there is a very negative effect for poor EU member countries: educated people will "emigrate" to anywhere in the EU where more money can be made; a brain-drain. Poor EU counties in the South and East not only loose their educated people, they already suffer from the Euro which prevents them to devaluate their own currency if they still had one. Drained countries, only poor people left except for those working for the EU oligarchy. And rich countries destabilizing for all the obvious reason of low-wage competition, cultural mis-integration, alienated semi-citizens who can live and work.. but not vote. Also people who flee politically tensed countries will decide to move away. Add war refugees pounding at the door of the EU "fortress" and all ending up in the rich EU countries. Populists like Geert Wilders love it.

FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE HAS A FUNDAMENTAL IMPACT ON DEMOGRAPHIC TRENDS

[Mr. Perfect]

And I find it hilarious still that the insular left once again only begins to debate (with itself) after the debate and the election are already concluded. I watched Brexit debates for almost 6 years? just as a casual observer. Exit won every single one I saw. Every single one. Occasionally that results in ballot box success, as it did in this case.

Insularity costs.

[Simple Minded]

EU should charge quarterly dues, and membership should be open to anyone on Earth who wants to join. If my dues are currently paid, my EU/EBT/WIC card works just like a debit card. If my dues aren't paid, my balance is zero and I have no benefits.

If I want to be a EUropean for six months a year and live/vaca there, why not?

Why make is more complicated/racist/xenophobic than belonging to a Sam's club or renting a timeshare beach house (EUSouth) or ski lodge (EUNorth)?

First EU nation/region that adopts the Simple Minded EUropean plan will make the others obsolete.

[Typhoon]

So the UK May have a new PM.

Looks like she plans to get Brexit over and done with.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

So the UK May have a new PM.

Looks like she plans to get Brexit over and done with.

.

All she can do is damage control .. making best of the situation .. Europeans know by now British game .. nothing new .. Poor Bonaparte

Germans (and French) now probably will move towards Russia .. Brits now on the last leg of empire .. plan seems to be "fleecing" Arabs of their "Oil windfall" British MPs, preparing stripping naked Amirs & Sheiks, making money old fashion way


.

[Doc]

EU should charge quarterly dues, and membership should be open to anyone on Earth who wants to join. If my dues are currently paid, my EU/EBT/WIC card works just like a debit card. If my dues aren't paid, my balance is zero and I have no benefits.

If I want to be a EUropean for six months a year and live/vaca there, why not?

Why make is more complicated/racist/xenophobic than belonging to a Sam's club or renting a timeshare beach house (EUSouth) or ski lodge (EUNorth)?

First EU nation/region that adopts the Simple Minded EUropean plan will make the others obsolete.

Personally I think the EU got off on the wrong direction. Instead of have one big clump of government they should have gone to city states with big walls surrounding. Then everyone inside and outside the walls could be free to do whatever their local constitution allowed for.

[Simple Minded]

EU should charge quarterly dues, and membership should be open to anyone on Earth who wants to join. If my dues are currently paid, my EU/EBT/WIC card works just like a debit card. If my dues aren't paid, my balance is zero and I have no benefits.

If I want to be a EUropean for six months a year and live/vaca there, why not?

Why make is more complicated/racist/xenophobic than belonging to a Sam's club or renting a timeshare beach house (EUSouth) or ski lodge (EUNorth)?

First EU nation/region that adopts the Simple Minded EUropean plan will make the others obsolete.

Personally I think the EU got off on the wrong direction. Instead of have one big clump of government they should have gone to city states with big walls surrounding. Then everyone inside and outside the walls could be free to do whatever their local constitution allowed for.

I think that worked pretty well in the past. I also think that movie sequel is in the works as we speak.......

Another route would be to appoint a god-king who will sell you dispensations.

[Alexis]

Personally I think the EU got off on the wrong direction. Instead of have one big clump of government they should have gone to city states with big walls surrounding. Then everyone inside and outside the walls could be free to do whatever their local constitution allowed for.

You mean, like a certain Northern American country - that shining city on a hill - where some would like to build a great wall protecting that big city-state from its Southern neighbor?



I was obviously speaking of that country:

sCyzdD0vYOw

[Doc]

Personally I think the EU got off on the wrong direction. Instead of have one big clump of government they should have gone to city states with big walls surrounding. Then everyone inside and outside the walls could be free to do whatever their local constitution allowed for.

You mean, like a certain Northern American country - that shining city on a hill - where some would like to build a great wall protecting that big city-state from its Southern neighbor?

Did you know that the drug trade in Mexico is bigger than oil exports?

I was obviously speaking of that country:

sCyzdD0vYOw

I don't think a racist could make it as president in the US. I mean really "Ca" nada C'mon ! Califorinians no matter how loonie left they are they are not a race. Ca'nadians celebrate loonie-ism on their coins anyway

So what is the point?

[YMix]

Theresa May has just sent BoJo to his political death.

Johnson is now charged, as Britain’s foreign secretary, with negotiating a divorce with E.U. colleagues who largely hold him in contempt. The cheerfully undiplomatic former mayor of London has a long history of colorfully insulting other nations and leaders, but the sharpest anger is connected to his campaign for Britain to leave the E.U.

“I have no worries about Boris Johnson, but you know well what his style is,” French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault told France’s Europe 1 radio. “He lied a lot during the campaign.”

The reference covers a range of later-discredited claims by the anti-E.U. side before last month’s campaign, including the level of Britain’s payments to the European Union. The criticism from the usually buttoned-down Ayrault is almost without precedent in the discreet world of European politics, where top leaders typically attack one another’s policies, not characters. But it foretells the reception the mop-haired Johnson is likely to receive among the 27 other E.U. foreign ministers during the coming years of fraught negotiations. E.U. foreign ministers will meet in Brussels on Monday in Johnson’s first test as foreign secretary.

“I need a partner with whom one can negotiate and who is clear, credible, reliable,” Ayrault said.

[...]

Hours before Johnson’s appointment was made public Wednesday, Steinmeier lashed out at him without using his name, criticizing “irresponsible politicians” who lured Britain toward a “Brexit,” then “didn’t take responsibility and instead played cricket.” Johnson disappeared from public view in the days after last month’s shocking referendum result in favor of a British exit from the E.U. and instead played cricket at a friend’s country estate.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


'Outrageous' and 'a liar'


True


.

[Mr. Perfect]

EU was built on lies. They deserve Boris.

[Doc]

Theresa May has just sent BoJo to his political death.

Johnson is now charged, as Britain’s foreign secretary, with negotiating a divorce with E.U. colleagues who largely hold him in contempt. The cheerfully undiplomatic former mayor of London has a long history of colorfully insulting other nations and leaders, but the sharpest anger is connected to his campaign for Britain to leave the E.U.

“I have no worries about Boris Johnson, but you know well what his style is,” French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault told France’s Europe 1 radio. “He lied a lot during the campaign.”

The reference covers a range of later-discredited claims by the anti-E.U. side before last month’s campaign, including the level of Britain’s payments to the European Union. The criticism from the usually buttoned-down Ayrault is almost without precedent in the discreet world of European politics, where top leaders typically attack one another’s policies, not characters. But it foretells the reception the mop-haired Johnson is likely to receive among the 27 other E.U. foreign ministers during the coming years of fraught negotiations. E.U. foreign ministers will meet in Brussels on Monday in Johnson’s first test as foreign secretary.

“I need a partner with whom one can negotiate and who is clear, credible, reliable,” Ayrault said.

[...]

Hours before Johnson’s appointment was made public Wednesday, Steinmeier lashed out at him without using his name, criticizing “irresponsible politicians” who lured Britain toward a “Brexit,” then “didn’t take responsibility and instead played cricket.” Johnson disappeared from public view in the days after last month’s shocking referendum result in favor of a British exit from the E.U. and instead played cricket at a friend’s country estate.

[YMix]

EU foreign ministers canceled an informal dinner planned for Sunday night at which they expected to discuss Brexit, saying it would be “inappropriate” after the terror attack in Nice.

Diplomats said some ministers were opposed to talking about the U.K.’s departure from the EU in the presence of its controversial new foreign secretary, Boris Johnson — whose surprise appointment this week drew scorn from his French and German counterparts.

[...]

“The desire of the entire 27 countries to do something with the Brits was frankly not very strong,” said a European diplomat. The source said several ministers felt the meeting was “a very bad idea.”

[...]

Another diplomat said the meeting was canceled because Mogherini did not “have the mandate to talk about Brexit.” The source added that EU leaders are planning to discuss British exit from the EU at an informal gathering in Bratislava on September 16.