Greece

[YMix]

i think thats mixing cause and effect - or atleast it is in my country.

none of the old industries are proving very sustainable in the face of automation and globalisation and this is destroying job security and leaving vast amounts of the population unemployed or unemployable.

True.

flexability is perhaps a word that ends up meaning nothing but at heart its acknowledging the death of the mass employment industrial age and actually allowing for a work less, more flexable age, grab new jobs as they show up with as few barriers to entry as possible, with as many new startups as possible.

the trick is the governments and other entrenched interests are not ready to allow this flexability because it will upset all the status quos of housing and wages and taxes - adjusting the cost of living in a complex society is very hard to do and tends to happen via shocks and doom.

To me, flexibility sounds like "you're going to work into your '70s and then starve without a pension". Which is where I'm heading at this point. Amusingly, the older generation, the people who hate communism, all have pensions secured by the very communism they hate. My generation, on the other hand, had to work for employers who only offered temp contracts, training contracts or "minimum-possible-salary-on-contract-and-the-rest-as-copyright-income" contracts. You'd be surprised how many people can be paid copyrights, which are obviously taxed less.

seperate question to my mind.

why do i lose 60-80% of my money on taxes just so i can live under a bridge and beg at soup queues when i lose my job - to my mind the socialist stuff is a lie upon lies and all it does is fund another corporation provding comfy middle class jobs to those lucky enough to have the right degrees and connections to get them.

i want as much of government gutted as possible so that money can make it out to the people and not just fund the lifestyles of government workers - this would give me more flexbility to work less and do risky startups

Sounds reasonable.

id rather all that tax money went on a minimum wage for everyone, that would be fairer to the unemployed and poor and that would give me confidence in the system for the next downturn that steals all my contracts - i currently have taken a 20% paycut due to downturn and may lose my job if it gets any worse, i have no security, the government will do nothing to help me, i dont understand the nonsense that they will.

I feel a socialistic solidarity with you, my brother from across the oceans.

[YMix]

i meant guaranteed income, not minimum wage, you are quite right.

So you do know how to spell guaranteed correctly! Had me fooled for a while.

[noddy]

i meant guaranteed income, not minimum wage, you are quite right.

So you do know how to spell guaranteed correctly! Had me fooled for a while.

sorry - when ive had a bit to drink the persona slips and me readin and writin can leak out.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Isn't all this 'flexible career' talk suspiciously Marxish? What was the prediction? Capitalism would crumble under its own weight and everyone would be afforded the opportunity to be a fisherman in the daytime, a teacher in the afternoon and a social justice warrior in their pajamas? That was the gist of it, right?

[noddy]

seems like 'flexible' has as many individualist interpretations as 'fair'.

[Simple Minded]

seems like 'flexible' has as many individualist interpretations as 'fair'.

Very true. But as Endo noted in another thread, as soon at "they" become more "aware," "they" will think more like "me" and become "we."

I think it is only a matter of time.........now.......

[Simple Minded]

i meant guaranteed income, not minimum wage, you are quite right.

ok..suspected you meant that

It still all goes back to how do you help someone, without creating perverse incentives, or not penalize those who do work "excessively" (another word that needs definition), or provide a safety net that is "enough" (another word that needs definition) without being so comfortable/fulfilling that few bother to get out of bed in the morning.

There is a fine line between a mother's (or Government's) teat and her backhand.

Some day, "someone" will find a definition of "fair" that "everyone" likes..........

and if those who are too young to vote now don't want to pay for the definition of "fair" du jour, then they can change it when they get old enough to vote, or pick up a rock, or light a match........ it is called "flexibility!"

organic flexibility vs. systemic/societal stability....... always bet on organisms mutating to adapt to changing environments.....

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

seems like 'flexible' has as many individualist interpretations as 'fair'.

hey, I'm not knocking it- it's clearly comin' fast down the pike- not invoking 'big M' to cause trouble here. Just thought it was a curiosity about where we are at. Looking at the scoreboard, it looks something like

after 20 centuries of play
Capitalism 5- Communism 1

Go team capital! (The Capital City Fat Cats?)

but now that is all decided, it's time we adopt scientific socialist solutions to make sure team capital can field a team that lasts the century.

curiouserandcuriouser

[noddy]

well, its early days yet, maybe team innovation will revitalize the whole show and make all the doom n gloom irrelevant.

the current thing is barely capitalist anyway, ~50% of the workers are government funded and many of the allegedly private industries are government mandated and protected.

ive said it before - doing the equivilant of unleashing the model-t ford amongst the horses in the modern world is illegal and borderline pscyhotic to our current mindset so their is a big argument its all self inflicted.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

i meant guaranteed income, not minimum wage, you are quite right.

ok..suspected you meant that

It still all goes back to how do you help someone, without creating perverse incentives, or not penalize those who do work "excessively" (another word that needs definition), or provide a safety net that is "enough" (another word that needs definition) without being so comfortable/fulfilling that few bother to get out of bed in the morning.

There is a fine line between a mother's (or Government's) teat and her backhand.

Some day, "someone" will find a definition of "fair" that "everyone" likes..........

and if those who are too young to vote now don't want to pay for the definition of "fair" du jour, then they can change it when they get old enough to vote, or pick up a rock, or light a match........ it is called "flexibility!"

organic flexibility vs. systemic/societal stability....... always bet on organisms mutating to adapt to changing environments.....

I'd be much more worried about the perversity of price fixing around a guaranteed income than what it would do to the work ethic of Joe Schmoe.

Don't know how that translates to Greece and its scores of Nicholas Popadopoloses.

[noddy]

i think guaranteed income would have lots and lots of negative effects and i dont care about any of them =]

the net positve is utter destruction of the busy body parasite class and the socialist part of our system actually being socialist.

a small price to pay... *evil manic laffter goes ere*

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

A lot of smart people left the Great Depression convinced that the future (us) had a choice between organizing around fascist states or communist ones. The 2nd World War left us with a general democratic socialist template that has worked as a "hold steady" pattern, right? The problem is that the dance goes on, but we've not done much more than shuffle our feet (off-beat, natch)for a few decades and our date is getting bored.

Our world has become a real wallflower and now all the crazies will want to dance with our date!

[noddy]

the levels of indifference and self sufficiency to sustain 'modern multi culti democratic freedom blah' are highly dependent on good times (tm)

that post ww2 template you talk of only really lasted for one generation.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

the levels of indifference and self sufficiency to sustain 'modern multi culti democratic freedom blah' are highly dependent on good times (tm)

that post ww2 template you talk of only really lasted for one generation.

Right. The problem with the template is that calling for revolution through reforms is just another way to say you lack the courage of your conviction. In asking for guarantees, nothing is accomplished- nothing is believable. And of course, nothing is the most exhausting thing people do.

0AQckXCVlbY

This has been a favorite of mine since I was little- whether it be the PPM version, or one of the Bob Dylan versions- and it is apropos of the current situation.

[Parodite]

You scepticons on basic income, a question.

How much would you need/month as an absolute minimum to have a roof over your head, buy basic food and have your health care covered on an absolute minimum level?

So not talking a comfy 3 room apartment and any money left for a holiday, a car or even a pet. You may need to struck a deal with your neighbors to use their wifi. Maybe you find a cheap shabby 1 room apartment, or can occupy a room of a friend or family temporarily and be able to pay them some for monthly costs. For arguments sake, I'll just guesstimate it at $500/month.

Would you loose in such a situation the incentive to find work? Most likely most people won't lose the incentive to work for such a minimalistic life style is generally not associated with happiness. All this money does is keeping you away from the poverty trap. Moreover, any money you make you can keep 100%, which enables people to work flexible hours and temp jobs. Think single moms for instance, or people needing to combine work and study.

In the Netherlands the absolute minimum social net is 850,- euros/month. However if you find work.. you only make financial progress if you make more than 850,- net/month. So that is a bad incentive to find work, accept part time or flex jobs. It also is an incentive to do black work and keep that on top of the 850,-. There are 850/mnth hill billies here in the street driving a Mercedes...

My idea for the Netherlands would be to replace this with a 400-500 euros/month unconditional basic income where you can keep the full extra money working. (Because basic income is calculated via income tax, there is some break-even point where you start to contribute to the national social net when you make more money) This is also of great help especially for young people clawing their way into the market. But these are just technicalities and the automated tax system can easily be calibrated to make it work smoothly, and indeed as Noddy says allows people who now work for the gvt big brother is watching you social security industry do something more useful.

Maybe you guys live on happily forever on $500/month and lost all incentive to work.. but me somehow doubteth that seriously You seem to prefer hundreds of thousands of poor people trapped in poverty and misery, trailer parks, drug related criminality slums and so on. It generates jobs at the DEA! And the fun of burdening students with thens of thousands of debt will teach those young baby-boom suckers what it means to fight for survival in the combative USofA! The only save havens seems to be Wallstreet&Co. Or just suck yourself into a gvt job.. Obama will take Care of you.

[Nonc Hilaire]

We're just trying to ignore the fact the nature of capital and labor have changed, and that graft has conquered justice and representative government is a fiction.

Laissez-faire capitalism has failed and the system needs to reworked. Maybe social credit (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit), maybe a minimum guaranteed income or something else. I dunno, but the current system has completely degenerated.

[YMix]

You scepticons on basic income, a question.

How much would you need/month as an absolute minimum to have a roof over your head, buy basic food and have your health care covered on an absolute minimum level?

The absolute minimum depends on the cost of living. The better question is how to prevent a race between the minimum income and consumer prices.

[YMix]

We're just trying to ignore the fact the nature of capital and labor have changed, and that graft has conquered justice and representative government is a fiction.

Laissez-faire capitalism has failed and the system needs to reworked. Maybe social credit (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit), maybe a minimum guaranteed income or something else. I dunno, but the current system has completely degenerated.

Pretty much.

[Simple Minded]

You scepticons on basic income, a question.

How much would you need/month as an absolute minimum to have a roof over your head, buy basic food and have your health care covered on an absolute minimum level?

So not talking a comfy 3 room apartment and any money left for a holiday, a car or even a pet. You may need to struck a deal with your neighbors to use their wifi. Maybe you find a cheap shabby 1 room apartment, or can occupy a room of a friend or family temporarily and be able to pay them some for monthly costs. For arguments sake, I'll just guesstimate it at $500/month.

Would you loose in such a situation the incentive to find work? Most likely most people won't lose the incentive to work for such a minimalistic life style is generally not associated with happiness. All this money does is keeping you away from the poverty trap. Moreover, any money you make you can keep 100%, which enables people to work flexible hours and temp jobs. Think single moms for instance, or people needing to combine work and study.

In the Netherlands the absolute minimum social net is 850,- euros/month. However if you find work.. you only make financial progress if you make more than 850,- net/month. So that is a bad incentive to find work, accept part time or flex jobs. It also is an incentive to do black work and keep that on top of the 850,-. There are 850/mnth hill billies here in the street driving a Mercedes...

My idea for the Netherlands would be to replace this with a 400-500 euros/month unconditional basic income where you can keep the full extra money working. (Because basic income is calculated via income tax, there is some break-even point where you start to contribute to the national social net when you make more money) This is also of great help especially for young people clawing their way into the market. But these are just technicalities and the automated tax system can easily be calibrated to make it work smoothly, and indeed as Noddy says allows people who now work for the gvt big brother is watching you social security industry do something more useful.

Maybe you guys live on happily forever on $500/month and lost all incentive to work.. but me somehow doubteth that seriously You seem to prefer hundreds of thousands of poor people trapped in poverty and misery, trailer parks, drug related criminality slums and so on. It generates jobs at the DEA! And the fun of burdening students with thens of thousands of debt will teach those young baby-boom suckers what it means to fight for survival in the combative USofA! The only save havens seems to be Wallstreet&Co. Or just suck yourself into a gvt job.. Obama will take Care of you.

Not a bad assessment Parodite. Welcome back BTW. But before we can propose benefits, we have to determine how much extra milk each cow in our heard is willing to pay each day "for the good of society." "We," the brain trust at OTNOT, still have not defined "fair."

And then there are the endless rules that may need to be created. If Euro Fred (EF) decides to spend his 500 euros/month on cocaine, rather than food and shelter, what to do? Put him in govt care with forced feeding? Leave him in the street?

At some point, "society" may decide that EF is a danger to himself, or a detriment to "their" neighborhood.

So many nuances, so few who are "aware." Coolest part about ideology is there is no cost. Implementation runs face first into the glass door of reality and gets ugly.

No shock that you have people focused on their own self-interests (milking the system), in the Netherlands, but Hillbillies? Really? Wouldn't that require hills?

[Simple Minded]

You scepticons on basic income, a question.

How much would you need/month as an absolute minimum to have a roof over your head, buy basic food and have your health care covered on an absolute minimum level?

The absolute minimum depends on the cost of living. The better question is how to prevent a race between the minimum income and consumer prices.

Excellent point! The subprime crises and skyrocketing housing prices comes to mind. To date, none that I am "aware" of have solved this problem. Of course, the reverse problem is price capping creating shortages.

But hey, temp solutions are all that "we" need. Posterity can deal with the nasty details and long term effects.

"In the long run, we're all dead!"

[Endovelico]

Don't you worry...

One of these days people will rearrange things, as they did in 1789 and in 1917... You may not like the outcome but the oligarchs will get their due...

[Simple Minded]

Don't you worry...

One of these days people will rearrange things, as they did in 1789 and in 1917... You may not like the outcome but the oligarchs will get their due...

No worries here Endo.

Once the oligarchs are gone, there will still be oppressors aplenty afoot, Leftists, Rightists, Capitalists, Corporatists, Socialists, Communists, Reptilians, Tri-Lateralists, Bilderbergers, Joos, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, etc. and if those aren't enough....... imagination shall provide what is needed.

Many Fred's at just about any age will find themselves oppressed by the decisions they made in their younger years. So many contemporary oppressions are the direct result of previous solutions to earlier problems. I suspect that will continue.

Consistency is "our" strong suit........

[noddy]

Don't you worry...

One of these days people will rearrange things, as they did in 1789 and in 1917... You may not like the outcome but the oligarchs will get their due...

No worries here Endo.

Once the oligarchs are gone, there will still be oppressors aplenty afoot, Leftists, Rightists, Capitalists, Corporatists, Socialists, Communists, Reptilians, Tri-Lateralists, Bilderbergers, Joos, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, etc. and if those aren't enough....... imagination shall provide what is needed.

Many Fred's at just about any age will find themselves oppressed by the decisions they made in their younger years. So many contemporary oppressions are the direct result of previous solutions to earlier problems. I suspect that will continue.

Consistency is "our" strong suit........

doubly so when all of endo's prescriptions require society to organise itself in a way that makes everyone useful and respected, with all people are invested in fairly.

*that* takes alot of oppression to make happen, our natural way is much less altruistic.

[Endovelico]

Consistency is "our" strong suit...

doubly so when all of endo's prescriptions require society to organise itself in a way that makes everyone useful and respected, with all people are invested in fairly.

*that* takes a lot of oppression to make happen, our natural way is much less altruistic.

You may very well be right but it would be easier if we made it very hard to accumulate large fortunes. Maybe a small dose of oppression might be acceptable in order to achieve that...

[Simple Minded]

doubly so when all of endo's prescriptions require society to organise itself in a way that makes everyone useful and respected, with all people are invested in fairly.

*that* takes alot of oppression to make happen, our natural way is much less altruistic.

True, people seem to prefer the state of being known as "egg" to that known as "omelet." Those Bastards.

"Humanity" is a small child that people look at and think "That kid is loaded with potential! He/she will do great stuff"

30 years later they look again and think "Yep, just like their father/mother. Sad!"

We are the people of the future!