Greece

Ibrahim
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Re: Greece

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:the cliche about making things more relevant than they should be by martyring them exists for a reason.

i think it was a mistake to give the golden dawn this kind of attention, far better to work around them and thusly keep them marginalised than do panic reactions that give them status.
I see what you're saying about manufacturing martyrs, but the GD were worming their way into a number of major public institutions, so it would be hard to avoid them or marginalize them. Plus, economic hardship (self-inflicted or no) is going to benefit extreme political parties.
if they have a real base and are getting real votes then shooting the messenger aint going to change the message, we are getting into muslim brotherhood territory here ;)

their are no easy answers or quick solutions to the rise in haters, you just got todo the long term work of integrating them or go hard and kill em all - i doubt most people have the stomach for the later, which leaves only the former as viable imho.
With fascists - just as with any authoritarian stream - you just have to cut the snake's head for the snake to die. You may get other similar snakes later, but not immediately. I say: chop GD's head and you will have a couple of years to make them irrelevant.
Your enthusiasm for purges notwithstanding, historically this has failed and failed again. Your bloodthirsty reactionary responses were tried against socialism in Europe from the 19th century onward. Now every country in Europe is at least partially socialist with a major socialist political party or parties controlling substantial portions of their legislature.

You're wrong if you think you can murder your way out of these problems.
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Endovelico
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:With fascists - just as with any authoritarian stream - you just have to cut the snake's head for the snake to die. You may get other similar snakes later, but not immediately. I say: chop GD's head and you will have a couple of years to make them irrelevant.
Your enthusiasm for purges notwithstanding, historically this has failed and failed again. Your bloodthirsty reactionary responses were tried against socialism in Europe from the 19th century onward. Now every country in Europe is at least partially socialist with a major socialist political party or parties controlling substantial portions of their legislature.

You're wrong if you think you can murder your way out of these problems.
I'm talking about authoritarian streams and you refer to socialist parties in Europe, as if it were the same thing. Had someone cut Hitler's head, do you think that any of his Nazi partners would have been able to conquer power in Germany? The same with Mussolini, or Franco, or Salazar, even if we are talking about different types of authoritarianism. Dictatorships which depend on a dictator's charisma will not survive once the dictator is gone. North Korea doesn't follow this pattern because it is already long established. But an aspirant dictatorial party, like the GD, would disappear with its leader.

Now, I do suggest that you keep your bad temper under control, so that discussions on this forum may remain possible. Besides, your provocative quasi-jihadist posture does not impress me at all...
noddy
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Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

i most certainly do not believe hitler or his ilk are special or required but are in fact just populists who ride on the underlying viewpoints, kill them and another takes their place.

i also am not aware of any of the larger hater groups ever being stopped by heads being chopped off, in fact all i can think of is the opposite.

this whole simplistic cowboy approach of chopping the heads of the snake only works on tiny groups with lower levels of commitment and the correct analogy for larger movements is more along the lines of chopping off the head and smashing all the backbone that supports the head, and thats called a civil war.
ultracrepidarian
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Endovelico
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

My point is that extremist groups tend to be led by charismatic figures, although not all charismatic figures need to be extremist. When the charismatic leader disappears, the movement will also disappear unless there is a mature grassroots movement supporting that leader. Look at Venezuela. The death of Hugo Chavez almost killed his revolution, in spite of the fact that a large percentage of the population supported his policies. And we still have to see how long Maduro will resist as President. This discussion arose about the Golden Dawn movement in Greece and its danger, and my opinion was, and is, that worrisome as the GD is, if its leader is made to disappear, the GD will fade away. The same would have happened in Germany, around 1930, if Hitler had been disposed of. Mind you, I'm not promoting political assassination as a solution, I'm just saying what the results might be if leaders of extremist movements were to disappear.
noddy
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Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

chopping off al queda type heads is doing crackingly well as is the ongoing head lopping of various biker and mafia groups.

alexis got it right, the only solution will be greek politicians actually making the place better and reducing the levels of bitterness and anger because aslong as you have increasing bitterness and anger you have increasing amounts of people looking for an outlet for the bitterness and anger.

if its not a multi headed hydra right now it soon will be if the ground conditions dont change.
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Parodite
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Re: Greece

Post by Parodite »

I agree with Endo on Hitler. It is the nature of a cult lead by a charismatic leader. He dies and the cult disappears. Unless the charismatic leader was charismatic beyond death, which only religious charismatic leaders were able to achieve i.e. when they spoke in the name of an authority that exists beyond death from the get go. Hitler did not manage to become such an Icon, he had to rely on earthly successes only. Which made him vulnerable to death, and with is his death his cult disintegrated as well.

GD in Greece is maybe a Hitler-light. Most neo-Nazis are small wannabe Hitlers. They also operate in a different reality than Germany pre-WW2. No immediate threat.

When is it time to act and outlaw them? Me thinks when they not only intend but actually start to use physical violence against others. GD followers already have attacked immigrants physically so that ought to be enough to outlaw them or put them "on watch" and remove some rights perhaps. Their political philosophy may appear democratic (so did Hitler in the beginning) but they reject human rights all the same. To at this point imprison the head of the snake (let alone kill him) is illegal unless he has done something the law doesn't allow him to do and it is proven beyond reasonable doubt. Those heads-of-snake however make sure they cannot be associated directly with criminal acts of the followers and get away with it. Some field soldiers can be sacrificed in the beginning. They calculate. As long as they can become a majority, win elections.

Now that the GD is becoming seriously big winning elections potentially, then what? Starting to do the Egypt military gunta thing and just kill them, round them up won't do. It means the law has already been defeated when you need unlawful acts to solve your problems. It would mean civil war has started already, the end of law. Better wait and prepare till the snake himself starts his civil war once it is in power. Then hit hard the moment he moves across the red lines.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Greece

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Parodite wrote:.

I agree with Endo on Hitler. It is the nature of a cult lead by a charismatic leader. He dies and the cult disappears. Unless the charismatic leader was charismatic beyond death, which only religious charismatic leaders were able to achieve i.e. when they spoke in the name of an authority that exists beyond death from the get go. Hitler did not manage to become such an Icon, he had to rely on earthly successes only. Which made him vulnerable to death, and with is his death his cult disintegrated as well.

GD in Greece is maybe a Hitler-light. Most neo-Nazis are small wannabe Hitlers. They also operate in a different reality than Germany pre-WW2. No immediate threat.

When is it time to act and outlaw them? Me thinks when they not only intend but actually start to use physical violence against others. GD followers already have attacked immigrants physically so that ought to be enough to outlaw them or put them "on watch" and remove some rights perhaps. Their political philosophy may appear democratic (so did Hitler in the beginning) but they reject human rights all the same. To at this point imprison the head of the snake (let alone kill him) is illegal unless he has done something the law doesn't allow him to do and it is proven beyond reasonable doubt. Those heads-of-snake however make sure they cannot be associated directly with criminal acts of the followers and get away with it. Some field soldiers can be sacrificed in the beginning. They calculate. As long as they can become a majority, win elections.

Now that the GD is becoming seriously big winning elections potentially, then what? Starting to do the Egypt military gunta thing and just kill them, round them up won't do. It means the law has already been defeated when you need unlawful acts to solve your problems. It would mean civil war has started already, the end of law. Better wait and prepare till the snake himself starts his civil war once it is in power. Then hit hard the moment he moves across the red lines.

.


Hitler and fascism no cult, rather the PREVAILING " Weltanschauung " of that time in all Europe .. Brits were more of everything than the Germans, difference only was, Germans were more honest and less diplomatic, just read Churchill writings to see how he looked down to Middle Eastern, Africans and and and

Notion, those Germans were a CULT from Mars, dishonest


That non issue

Issue, whether that " Weltanschauung " has changed

History post Hitler last 70 yrs, facts on the ground, does not look like it has



.
Ibrahim
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Re: Greece

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:With fascists - just as with any authoritarian stream - you just have to cut the snake's head for the snake to die. You may get other similar snakes later, but not immediately. I say: chop GD's head and you will have a couple of years to make them irrelevant.
Your enthusiasm for purges notwithstanding, historically this has failed and failed again. Your bloodthirsty reactionary responses were tried against socialism in Europe from the 19th century onward. Now every country in Europe is at least partially socialist with a major socialist political party or parties controlling substantial portions of their legislature.

You're wrong if you think you can murder your way out of these problems.
I'm talking about authoritarian streams and you refer to socialist parties in Europe, as if it were the same thing. Had someone cut Hitler's head, do you think that any of his Nazi partners would have been able to conquer power in Germany? The same with Mussolini, or Franco, or Salazar, even if we are talking about different types of authoritarianism. Dictatorships which depend on a dictator's charisma will not survive once the dictator is gone. North Korea doesn't follow this pattern because it is already long established. But an aspirant dictatorial party, like the GD, would disappear with its leader.
I didn't think many people still went for this "great man" theory of history. Maybe you find HItler charismatic, but I don't. And of those movements were based on a groundswell of malcontents and directly aided and abetted by members of the political elite who were terrified of Bolsheviks (or, in the case of Russia, counterrevolutionaries). They collected violent losers for support, and the targeted both their political enemies and convenient scapegoats. All of this is just like Golden Dawn and there are certainly no "great leaders" required. None with the er... "charisma" of a Mussolini anyway.

Now, I do suggest that you keep your bad temper under control, so that discussions on this forum may remain possible.
You're the one constantly advocating violence against people you personally disagree with. I'm not the one who needs to keep my temper under wraps, I haven't agitated for the murder of anyone.


Besides, your provocative quasi-jihadist posture does not impress me at all...
You're the violent extremist here, this pathetic claim is based on nothing but your own prejudices. I challenge you to find a single quote to support it.
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YMix
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Re: Greece

Post by YMix »

Rheinmetall is the new name in German - Greek web of corruption

“I accepted so many bribes that I can’t remember all of them,” former defense procurement official confesses during marathon testimony that implicates German, Swedish and Russian companies in a web of corruption with tens of millions of euros moved between German and Swiss banks.
Antonis Kantas, the former deputy director of the MoD’s procurement office, has admitted to accepting a bribe worth 1.5 million euros from a Greek retired military officer representing companies including the German arms manufacturer Rheinmetall over two procurement programs. He also confessed to receiving a 1.7 million euro bribe for a third defense contract.

Rheinmetall was the tenth-largest European defence contractor in 2011. Formed in 1889, the company played an integral part in the Nazi war effort during World War II relying heavily on conscripted labour. In 1941, Rheinmetall was also involved, via one of its directors who served as a representative of the Wermacht in Athens, in the looting of the biggest Greek arms industry at the time.

In August and September 2013, the offices of of Rheinmetall Defense Electronics and Atlas Elektronik (also involved in the deals) were raided first in Bremen by the German police and then in Athens by the Greek police (Kathimerini, link in greek). The raids were part of an investigation ordered by prosecutors in Greece seeking evidence amid a probe into alleged bribes paid to Greek officials in connection to the scandal over the purchase of 4 submarines by the Greek MoD.

During his marathon 4 day testimony which concluded yesterday, Mr Kantas gave investigating magistrates a wealth of information regarding the numerous bribes alleged to have been paid to him and other MoD officials including the names of people involved in the scandal. He is reported to be cooperating with the investigation with the hope of receiving a more lenient treatment from the courts.

“I accepted so many bribes that I can’t remember all of them,” Antonis Kantas reportedly told investigating magistrates during his preliminary hearing over corrupt practices during his 1996-2002 tenure as the number 2 official in the MoD’s procurement office.

Mr Kantas shed light on how the illegal payments were made revealing that accounts were used in Dresdner and UBS banks to which the arms company representative would transfer the bribes. It is expected that investigations of the bank accounts will reveal more people involved in the scandal. Other banks linked to the web of corruption include Bank Hoffmann (merged with the Credit Suisse Group into Clariden Leu), BNP Paribas and others relating to a number of bribery scandals and money laundering rings.

Mr Kantas is also reported to have described how on one occasion a middleman left a briefcase with 600,000 euros in cash in his office.

According to reports the 71 year old Kantas offered up details of how the procurement process was rigged. To begin with the conditions of each tender would be tailored to the preferred arms supplier so as to eliminate much of the competition. The then director of the procurement office, Giannis Sbokos (whose trial is also pending), would then also ensure that paid-off officials were placed in key positions on the relevant committees evaluating the bidding process.

Mr Kantas also revealed the details of numerous accounts in seven different Swiss banks and has also stated his willingness to provide transaction details. In all Mr Kantas is reported to have named 10 people involved in the bribery scandal (8 company representatives and two financiers) and 10 procurement contracts for which illegal payments were made, at least 3 or 4 of which were new to investigators. Of the ten only one has reached the stage of being investigated by magistrates with the rest, including the infamous submarine contracts still at the stage of preliminary investigations. The bribes paid for these contracts are said to have run into the many millions of euros, with Mr Kantas alone claiming to have received a total of 16 million euros.

Kantas’s testimony will likely trigger further investigatiοns into MoD officials by the two special magistrates handling the case. Aside from the two former ministers in charge of the MoD at the time, Akis Tsochatzopoulos (who is already in prison convicted of money-laundering) and his successor Yannos Papantoniou who is facing criminal charges for tax evasion, the magistrates will also scrutinize members of the MoD evaluation committees, intermediaries, arms industry businessman and other related individuals such as two financiers named by Mr Kantas. The accused is also reported to have named a retired military officer who played a central role in the movement of dirty money.

According to reports Mr Kantas maintained that the officer, known by magistrates to have represented the German companies Rheinmetall and Atlas Elektronik (a subsidiary of Rheinmetall), paid him a 1.5 million euro bribe for the MoD to opt for the German Type 214 submarines and for the Swedish - German made ASRAD vehicle mounted short-range air defense systems. He also admitted to receiving a 1.7 million euro bribe to secure the contract for the supply of Leopard tanks, and other bribes from a Russian weapons manufacturer for a contract to supply Kornet anti-tank missiles and launchers.

It should be noted that the procedures for the procurement of all three of the above weapons systems including contract extensions spanned the tenures of both Mr Tsochatzopoulos and Mr Papantoniou as ministers of defense.

The special magistrates investigating the case, Gabriel Mallis and Ioannis Stavropoulos now face the task of identifying others who accepted payments from the company representatives and businessmen named by Mr Kantas. According to reports some of those involved are already beginning to talk with Panos Efstathiou, named over a scandal involving the ERMIS weapons system, making the first move. “I will talk,” Mr Efstathiou is reported as having said, “I will not be the sacrificial victim.”
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Endovelico
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

One could say that Germans are punishing Greece partially to cover up for its own crimes and responsibilities. Or maybe just to recover the money they paid up in bribes... :D
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Endovelico
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Escaped Marxist guerrilla Christodoulos Xiros alarms Greece with pledge to return to arms
Helena Smith in Athens - The Observer, Sunday 26 January 2014

Up close, Christodoulos Xiros does not come across as a menacing man – in many ways he still resembles the soft-spoken craftsman he once was. But this weekend, barely three weeks after absconding from the high-security Korydallos prison in Athens, the dark-eyed 56-year-old, a key member of the defunct 17 November terror group, has struck fear into the hearts of many across crisis-hit Greece.

In the space of five days, panic-stricken authorities have launched the biggest manhunt in modern times, placed a €4m bounty on his head – dead or alive – and thrown a security cordon around the capital not seen since the 2004 Olympics.

On Friday, as European justice ministers gathered in the country that currently holds the EU's rotating presidency, there were sharpshooters on the roofs, sniffer dogs roaming the streets and more than 2,000 riot police outside government offices and hotels.

"I am worried that soon there will be an attack," said former foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis, giving voice to the fears stalking Greece after Xiros failed to report to authorities while visiting his family during a nine-day leave from prison earlier this month.

It was 15 days before the self-described "free member of 17 November" re-emerged, with a video message vowing a return to armed action. "It's time for battle," Xiros said against a background of images depicting resistance fighters and a second world war communist hero. "I have decided to thunder the guerrilla shotgun against those who stole our lives and sold our dreams for profit."

The event has been a huge embarrassment even for a government already dealing with a society at boiling point and an economy still ravaged by recession and debt almost four years after first being bailed out.

Bakoyannis – whose first husband, a conservative MP, was gunned down by the 17 November organisation in 1989 – was convinced, along with most Greek officials, that the scourge of terrorism had been eradicated with the disbandment of the guerrilla gang in 2002.

Xiros, who was serving six life sentences for a string of deadly attacks and bombings, was among the 15 convicted members of 17 November whose incarceration was meant to have ended the activities of an organisation that, long before the appearance of al-Qaida, was at the top of America's most wanted list.

Over a period of 27 years, the seemingly impregnable Marxist-Leninist group killed 23 people, including CIA station chief Richard Welch, its first victim, and British defence attache Brigadier Stephen Saunders, assassinated as he drove to work in June 2000.

In the commotion that followed Xiros's escape, Alexandros Giotopoulos, the French-born academic believed to have founded the gang, and Dimitris Koufondinas, its chief hitman, have declared, in letters written from prison, that "17 November is dead". But while security officials agree – pointing out that Greeks' tolerance for its crusade against capitalist culture and its crude anti-Americanism has long since evaporated – fears abound that the country's austerity-ravaged society and fragile political climate provide fertile ground for a resurgence of political violence.

Anger in Washington has added to the pressure on prime minister Antonis Samaras's shaky government to capture Xiros. The US State Department still regards 17 November as a terrorist organisation.

Western diplomats worry that Xiros will try to forge a leading role among a new generation of guerrillas linked to a criminal underworld that is thought to be well-armed and careless about who gets killed. During his 11-year stint in prison he is known to have fraternised with members of the militant group Conspiracy of the Cells of Fire, best-known for the parcel bombs it dispatched to the offices of EU leaders, including that of the German chancellor Angela Merkel, at the onset of the Greek crisis.

In his video message, Xiros issued a rallying cry for anarchists and leftists to unite in revolt against the "scum" who had brought Greece to the brink of ruin. "What is dangerous about him is that he has a hyper-acute sense of justice and a pathological sense of responsibility," said the former US diplomat Brady Kiesling, who has been studying Greek far-left violence for a forthcoming book. "And that is what makes a terrorist."

In the aftermath of his disappearance, speculation was rife that Xiros, the son of a fundamentalist Orthodox priest, had decided to abscond because he had fallen in love with a woman he met on a previous release from prison. But as police swooped on homes in Athens, rounding up and arresting figures on the anti-establishment left, rumour was also rife that a terrorist attack was imminent.

"Although we do not know the circumstances under which it was made, for a large part of the revolutionary community he disgraced himself by signing a police confession that he belonged to 17 November," said Kiesling. "I think he is now desperately trying to place himself in a noble position for a handful of people he cares about."

Xiros's ability to elude the authorities has inevitably also focused attention on a Greek state apparatus that has all but collapsed. Anti-terrorist units, like the judiciary, police, prison officers and politicians, have been sapped of morale by the country's ongoing crisis.

He is the second convicted terrorist to go underground: Nikos Maziotis – the leader of another disbanded guerilla group, Revolutionary Struggle – absconded on a similar leave of absence from prison last year. Maziotis was believed to be behind a shooting attack on the official residence of the German ambassador to Athens in December. The Greek justice minister announced on Friday that the authorities would re-examine the release rights of those serving time for terrorism offences. "They should never have been given such permits," the minister said.

Until now prisoners, including most of 17 November, have been granted temporary release after serving eight years of their sentences. Xiros, to the dismay of authorities in Washington, has secured several such exits since 2011.

"Last year, he was the guest of honour when he came to baptise the kid of the guy who now rents his workspace," Ilias Leriadis, the deputy mayor on the island of Ikaria, Xiros's ancestral home, told the Observer. "This is a traditionally leftist island, and although we don't support his call for arms, and leftwing parties have strongly opposed it, he has a lot of support among friends and family here."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ber-greece
I find the underlined section of the above article very enlightening. It is dangerous to have "a hyper-acute sense of justice" and an overwhelming sense of responsibility. In other words, justice is relative and shouldn't be taken seriously, and a sense of responsibility is dangerous. Dangerous to those who disregard the common good, that is. And therefore a terrorist is someone who takes justice seriously and feels responsible for the welfare of the community. Very interesting, indeed.
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monster_gardener
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Dissing Dueling and Greek Stupidity......

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Escaped Marxist guerrilla Christodoulos Xiros alarms Greece with pledge to return to arms
Helena Smith in Athens - The Observer, Sunday 26 January 2014

Up close, Christodoulos Xiros does not come across as a menacing man – in many ways he still resembles the soft-spoken craftsman he once was. But this weekend, barely three weeks after absconding from the high-security Korydallos prison in Athens, the dark-eyed 56-year-old, a key member of the defunct 17 November terror group, has struck fear into the hearts of many across crisis-hit Greece.

In the space of five days, panic-stricken authorities have launched the biggest manhunt in modern times, placed a €4m bounty on his head – dead or alive – and thrown a security cordon around the capital not seen since the 2004 Olympics.

On Friday, as European justice ministers gathered in the country that currently holds the EU's rotating presidency, there were sharpshooters on the roofs, sniffer dogs roaming the streets and more than 2,000 riot police outside government offices and hotels.

"I am worried that soon there will be an attack," said former foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis, giving voice to the fears stalking Greece after Xiros failed to report to authorities while visiting his family during a nine-day leave from prison earlier this month.

It was 15 days before the self-described "free member of 17 November" re-emerged, with a video message vowing a return to armed action. "It's time for battle," Xiros said against a background of images depicting resistance fighters and a second world war communist hero. "I have decided to thunder the guerrilla shotgun against those who stole our lives and sold our dreams for profit."

The event has been a huge embarrassment even for a government already dealing with a society at boiling point and an economy still ravaged by recession and debt almost four years after first being bailed out.

Bakoyannis – whose first husband, a conservative MP, was gunned down by the 17 November organisation in 1989 – was convinced, along with most Greek officials, that the scourge of terrorism had been eradicated with the disbandment of the guerrilla gang in 2002.

Xiros, who was serving six life sentences for a string of deadly attacks and bombings, was among the 15 convicted members of 17 November whose incarceration was meant to have ended the activities of an organisation that, long before the appearance of al-Qaida, was at the top of America's most wanted list.

Over a period of 27 years, the seemingly impregnable Marxist-Leninist group killed 23 people, including CIA station chief Richard Welch, its first victim, and British defence attache Brigadier Stephen Saunders, assassinated as he drove to work in June 2000.

In the commotion that followed Xiros's escape, Alexandros Giotopoulos, the French-born academic believed to have founded the gang, and Dimitris Koufondinas, its chief hitman, have declared, in letters written from prison, that "17 November is dead". But while security officials agree – pointing out that Greeks' tolerance for its crusade against capitalist culture and its crude anti-Americanism has long since evaporated – fears abound that the country's austerity-ravaged society and fragile political climate provide fertile ground for a resurgence of political violence.

Anger in Washington has added to the pressure on prime minister Antonis Samaras's shaky government to capture Xiros. The US State Department still regards 17 November as a terrorist organisation.

Western diplomats worry that Xiros will try to forge a leading role among a new generation of guerrillas linked to a criminal underworld that is thought to be well-armed and careless about who gets killed. During his 11-year stint in prison he is known to have fraternised with members of the militant group Conspiracy of the Cells of Fire, best-known for the parcel bombs it dispatched to the offices of EU leaders, including that of the German chancellor Angela Merkel, at the onset of the Greek crisis.

In his video message, Xiros issued a rallying cry for anarchists and leftists to unite in revolt against the "scum" who had brought Greece to the brink of ruin. "What is dangerous about him is that he has a hyper-acute sense of justice and a pathological sense of responsibility," said the former US diplomat Brady Kiesling, who has been studying Greek far-left violence for a forthcoming book. "And that is what makes a terrorist."

In the aftermath of his disappearance, speculation was rife that Xiros, the son of a fundamentalist Orthodox priest, had decided to abscond because he had fallen in love with a woman he met on a previous release from prison. But as police swooped on homes in Athens, rounding up and arresting figures on the anti-establishment left, rumour was also rife that a terrorist attack was imminent.

"Although we do not know the circumstances under which it was made, for a large part of the revolutionary community he disgraced himself by signing a police confession that he belonged to 17 November," said Kiesling. "I think he is now desperately trying to place himself in a noble position for a handful of people he cares about."

Xiros's ability to elude the authorities has inevitably also focused attention on a Greek state apparatus that has all but collapsed. Anti-terrorist units, like the judiciary, police, prison officers and politicians, have been sapped of morale by the country's ongoing crisis.

He is the second convicted terrorist to go underground: Nikos Maziotis – the leader of another disbanded guerilla group, Revolutionary Struggle – absconded on a similar leave of absence from prison last year. Maziotis was believed to be behind a shooting attack on the official residence of the German ambassador to Athens in December. The Greek justice minister announced on Friday that the authorities would re-examine the release rights of those serving time for terrorism offences. "They should never have been given such permits," the minister said.

Until now prisoners, including most of 17 November, have been granted temporary release after serving eight years of their sentences. Xiros, to the dismay of authorities in Washington, has secured several such exits since 2011.

"Last year, he was the guest of honour when he came to baptise the kid of the guy who now rents his workspace," Ilias Leriadis, the deputy mayor on the island of Ikaria, Xiros's ancestral home, told the Observer. "This is a traditionally leftist island, and although we don't support his call for arms, and leftwing parties have strongly opposed it, he has a lot of support among friends and family here."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ber-greece
I find the underlined section of the above article very enlightening. It is dangerous to have "a hyper-acute sense of justice" and an overwhelming sense of responsibility. In other words, justice is relative and shouldn't be taken seriously, and a sense of responsibility is dangerous. Dangerous to those who disregard the common good, that is. And therefore a terrorist is someone who takes justice seriously and feels responsible for the welfare of the community. Very interesting, indeed.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endovelico.
Endovelico wrote:Until now prisoners, including most of 17 November, have been granted temporary release after serving eight years of their sentences. Xiros, to the dismay of authorities in Washington, has secured several such exits since 2011.
WTD? :roll:

The US State Department is undoubtedly shocked that Christodoulos Xiros has managed to escape from Greek authorities after being granted leave from prison. The terrorist organisation was responsible for the deaths of five Americans in Greece.
Speaking to M. Ignatiou, the US correspondent for Mega TV, a spokesperson for the US state department was quoted as saying:

"We are deeply concerned that the convicted terrorist Christodoulos Xiros, who was a key member of a terrorist organization 17th of November that killed five employees of the U.S. Mission to Greece, is missing following a leave from prison where he was serving six consecutive life sentences for murders.
http://www.thepressproject.net/article/ ... ulos-Xiros

If moronic stuff like this is Standard Operating Procedure for the modern Greeks, if they are really this careless/foolish/stupid, then no wonder the country is in trouble.... :roll:

A Life Sentence should mean that the perp is kept locked up permanently, not allowed to attend fun family functions like baptisms. Not being allowed to attend is part of the punishment!

If he or she must be taken somewhere outside the prison, it should be in manacles and under guard.
He is the second convicted terrorist to go underground: Nikos Maziotis – the leader of another disbanded guerilla group, Revolutionary Struggle – absconded on a similar leave of absence from prison last year.
:roll:

Amazing! The Greek Euroz are such slow learners that they manage to make Uz look smart... ;) :lol: :roll:


I am mostly against the death penalty but if this is the slovenly stupid way life sentences are going to be applied in Greece, then maybe LzzrdGrrl is correct that the death penalty may be needed

And maybe the Greeks need to start brewing Hemlock again ............ ;) :twisted:


Otherwise.......
It is dangerous to have "a hyper-acute sense of justice"
Quite correct....

Remembering times and places when 'duels' & similar mayhem were and still are fought over some trifle of etiquette and 'honor'/ getting "dissed"............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duels
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Re: Dissing Dueling and Greek Stupidity......

Post by Endovelico »

monster_gardener wrote:
It is dangerous to have "a hyper-acute sense of justice"
Quite correct....

Remembering times and places when 'duels' & similar mayhem were and still are fought over some trifle of etiquette and 'honor'/ getting "dissed"............
Justice and honour are two quite different concepts. Duels were never meant to further justice...

As to your comments on Greeks allowing life prisoners to go home on leave (!?#&...), I can only agree. Too crazy to be true...
noddy
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Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

i dont approve of the death penalty however it bothers me less than the ever changing rules that gets one in serious trouble in the first place.
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Re: Greece

Post by Typhoon »

Endovelico wrote:One could say that Germans are punishing Greece partially to cover up for its own crimes and responsibilities. Or maybe just to recover the money they paid up in bribes... :D
Another view*.
The year is drawing to a close and Greece is imploding.

After almost five years of extreme economic rigor which crushed the low and middle classes that fell outside the protective umbrella of the ruling kleptocracy, complete and final bankruptcy is once again looming ahead.

Our laughably incompetent government switched into militant anti-European mode back in May. They began trumpeting the exit from the EU-IMF program, peddling the lie that they had fulfilled all its requirements. In fact they had carried out none of the structural reforms they had signed on to. The public sector is as corrupt as ever and the economy is still in the hands of the scandalously privileged unions and various private business mafias that have the political personnel in their pay.

The only thing the government have managed is to balance the budget by a) not paying the state's debt to private individuals and b) by taxing to death small businesses and the average wage-earner. So, when they tried to once again draw financing from the international markets they received a drubbing, and the rates of return on Greek government bonds skyrocketed back in October. Ever since they have been "negotiating" with the EU-IMF about not fulfilling commitments they agreed to and wrote into law back in 2012. No wonder that the talks ground to a screeching halt.

Meanwhile, the inability to elect a new President of the republic in the present parliament makes an early election highly probable by next spring. So, come the new year the country is threatened with the perfect storm: no international financial protection program, hence no liquidity to the Greek banks from Frankfurt, no legitimate head of state, a government at the end of its tether and the general chaos that ordinarily ensues during election time and which nearly drove the country out of the EU in 2012.

Except that this time the consequences of a Greek exit are much more manageable for Europe. We are rapidly sliding back to our age-old Balkan malaise, if not straight into a fourth-world vegetative state.

In all this the "radical left" opposition is touting its own magic potion: if they gain power they will demand of the EU to forgive most of the country's colossal debt (primarily owed at this point to governments, i.e. to the European tax-payer) and if they refuse Greece will default on its obligations. What they will do if the international community slams the door in their face they don't say. Also, they will provide thousands of new public sector jobs, and increase drastically the minimum wage as well as public works spending. All this out of non-existent financial resources.

When they presented this farcical concoction to international lenders in London a couple of weeks ago, they were laughed out of the room. If they mean all this balderdash (and it seems that they do), Greece is out of the Euro overnight and, given that the country imports everything it needs, shortages and monster inflation will result. They are then going to be chased down the streets by stone-throwing crowds, the very same ones that are now cheering them on convinced by them that it rains pennies from heaven.

So all in all, both government and opposition are locked in embrace as they lead the country dancing down the cliff. They keep hurling obscenities at each other, to be sure, as they are wrestling for power. But to have power for themselves alone is their only aim -and their only difference. Apart from that they are in profound agreement that the mafia-ridden system of nationalist-Stalinist statism that ruined the country was just about perfect and that it was the "evil foreigners" that swooped down on us uninvited to disturb our bliss. This is the mentality that also grips the people at large, beaten into their brains by the mass media, themselves prime beneficiaries of the rotten system. As long as these conditions prevail there is no salvation, however you finesse the economic figures here and there.

~ Pericles Vallianos, National and Kapodistrian University of Athens
One suspects that the internal politics in Portugal, Italy, and Spain are similar, the only difference being a question of degree.

*Tip of the hat to a friend of a friend of a friend for passing this on.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

ive heard that italy is one of the few modern western countries that the black market economy is bigger than the official one, its how they have survived with retarded governance for so long.

on that level, they are far far ahead of the rest of us :)

grid lock as an artform, brilliant!
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Re: Greece

Post by Typhoon »

noddy wrote:ive heard that italy is one of the few modern western countries that the black market economy is bigger than the official one, its how they have survived with retarded governance for so long.

on that level, they are far far ahead of the rest of us :)

grid lock as an artform, brilliant!
:lol: Indeed :wink:
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Greece

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
Another view*.
The year is drawing to a close and Greece is imploding.

After almost five years of extreme economic rigor which crushed the low and middle classes that fell outside the protective umbrella of the ruling kleptocracy, complete and final bankruptcy is once again looming ahead.

Our laughably incompetent government switched into militant anti-European mode back in May. They began trumpeting the exit from the EU-IMF program, peddling the lie that they had fulfilled all its requirements. In fact they had carried out none of the structural reforms they had signed on to. The public sector is as corrupt as ever and the economy is still in the hands of the scandalously privileged unions and various private business mafias that have the political personnel in their pay.

The only thing the government have managed is to balance the budget by a) not paying the state's debt to private individuals and b) by taxing to death small businesses and the average wage-earner. So, when they tried to once again draw financing from the international markets they received a drubbing, and the rates of return on Greek government bonds skyrocketed back in October. Ever since they have been "negotiating" with the EU-IMF about not fulfilling commitments they agreed to and wrote into law back in 2012. No wonder that the talks ground to a screeching halt.

Meanwhile, the inability to elect a new President of the republic in the present parliament makes an early election highly probable by next spring. So, come the new year the country is threatened with the perfect storm: no international financial protection program, hence no liquidity to the Greek banks from Frankfurt, no legitimate head of state, a government at the end of its tether and the general chaos that ordinarily ensues during election time and which nearly drove the country out of the EU in 2012.

Except that this time the consequences of a Greek exit are much more manageable for Europe. We are rapidly sliding back to our age-old Balkan malaise, if not straight into a fourth-world vegetative state.

In all this the "radical left" opposition is touting its own magic potion: if they gain power they will demand of the EU to forgive most of the country's colossal debt (primarily owed at this point to governments, i.e. to the European tax-payer) and if they refuse Greece will default on its obligations. What they will do if the international community slams the door in their face they don't say. Also, they will provide thousands of new public sector jobs, and increase drastically the minimum wage as well as public works spending. All this out of non-existent financial resources.

When they presented this farcical concoction to international lenders in London a couple of weeks ago, they were laughed out of the room. If they mean all this balderdash (and it seems that they do), Greece is out of the Euro overnight and, given that the country imports everything it needs, shortages and monster inflation will result. They are then going to be chased down the streets by stone-throwing crowds, the very same ones that are now cheering them on convinced by them that it rains pennies from heaven.

So all in all, both government and opposition are locked in embrace as they lead the country dancing down the cliff. They keep hurling obscenities at each other, to be sure, as they are wrestling for power. But to have power for themselves alone is their only aim -and their only difference. Apart from that they are in profound agreement that the mafia-ridden system of nationalist-Stalinist statism that ruined the country was just about perfect and that it was the "evil foreigners" that swooped down on us uninvited to disturb our bliss. This is the mentality that also grips the people at large, beaten into their brains by the mass media, themselves prime beneficiaries of the rotten system. As long as these conditions prevail there is no salvation, however you finesse the economic figures here and there.

~ Pericles Vallianos, National and Kapodistrian University of Athens
One suspects that the internal politics in Portugal, Italy, and Spain are similar, the only difference being a question of degree.

*Tip of the hat to a friend of a friend of a friend for passing this on.
Not just the above mentioned countries. Above text in bold red reads like much of what Victor Davis Hanson writes about central California. His articles and the personal anecdotes he recites during interviews are astonishing.
Simple Minded

Re: Greece

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:ive heard that italy is one of the few modern western countries that the black market economy is bigger than the official one, its how they have survived with retarded governance for so long.

on that level, they are far far ahead of the rest of us :)

grid lock as an artform, brilliant!
:lol: a workable plan that should be emulated often...
Simple Minded

Re: Greece

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:ive heard that italy is one of the few modern western countries that the black market economy is bigger than the official one, its how they have survived with retarded governance for so long.

on that level, they are far far ahead of the rest of us :)

grid lock as an artform, brilliant!
The Italians politicians read Karleoni Marx, the Italian people read Antonio Shrugged... ;)
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Typhoon wrote:One suspects that the internal politics in Portugal, Italy, and Spain are similar, the only difference being a question of degree.
You suspect wrong, at least as far as Portugal is concerned. Maybe you should try and read some of the Portuguese press on that subject.
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Re: Greece

Post by Typhoon »

Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:One suspects that the internal politics in Portugal, Italy, and Spain are similar, the only difference being a question of degree.
You suspect wrong, at least as far as Portugal is concerned. Maybe you should try and read some of the Portuguese press on that subject.
Can you assist me [and the forum] and kindly provide links to various views.
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Re: Greece

Post by Typhoon »

Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:One suspects that the internal politics in Portugal, Italy, and Spain are similar, the only difference being a question of degree.
You suspect wrong, at least as far as Portugal is concerned. Maybe you should try and read some of the Portuguese press on that subject.
My kitchen [Brazilian] Portuguese has mostly faded from memory, so I'll have to make do with the Engliiiiish FT.

Portugal’s old order loses its grip in painful times of change
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Doc
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Re: Greece

Post by Doc »

Typhoon wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:One suspects that the internal politics in Portugal, Italy, and Spain are similar, the only difference being a question of degree.
You suspect wrong, at least as far as Portugal is concerned. Maybe you should try and read some of the Portuguese press on that subject.
My kitchen [Brazilian] Portuguese has mostly faded from memory, so I'll have to make do with the Engliiiiish FT.

Portugal’s old order loses its grip in painful times of change
Unfortunately this is behind a pay wall CS The only way around that is to copy the link from Google news:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 2063,d.eXY
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Typhoon wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:One suspects that the internal politics in Portugal, Italy, and Spain are similar, the only difference being a question of degree.
You suspect wrong, at least as far as Portugal is concerned. Maybe you should try and read some of the Portuguese press on that subject.
Can you assist me [and the forum] and kindly provide links to various views.
I don't have the time to do that search for you, but whenever I come across an article on the subject I will provide the link here.

If you want to read a serious analysis of the debt problem in Portugal, you may want to have a look at the following:

http://auditoriacidada.info/facebook/do ... io_iac.pdf
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