Germany

[Endovelico]

[Simple Minded]

OK, I will take the pain. Too irritated by this ignorant.

List of facts:

- Contrary to Seewald's contention, had liberal-minded Europeans of the 1820s not been passionate about Greek independence cause, it would not have prevented the following 1830 and 1848 revolutions. Culprit, if one is needed, is France, her revolution, her megalomaniac emperor and his laws being spread around Europe by way of arms. Consequences of which the Holy Alliance of 1815 could only hope to slow, not to suppress. More distant culprits are France, Britain and America, whose revolutions and other political upheavals reinforced and inspired one another into a political and intellectual movement that could not be suppressed, no matter whether one tried to spread it like Napoléon, or to hinder it

- In Seewald's view, revolutions of 1830 and 1848 were "destruction of Europe's order". I will leave him that opinion. I would only note that if he really thinks so, he should be distressed being German, for Germany was born as a result of 1848 revolution creating the desire for unity, while Bismarck used the 1870 war to actually create that unity. Incidentally, modern Germany is a more recent country than modern Greece

- In Seewald's view, consequences of Greece freeing itself of Turkish yoke with help of France, Britain and Russia, if those consequences were negative, would have to be by the fault of the Greeks. Absurd: one cannot fault a people for desiring to free itself from foreign domination, and if helping that nation was a fault, then it's on France, Britain and Russia

- Contrary to Seewald, Greeks are not presently preparing to "destroy Europe's order". They are negotiating with their creditors, which whatever opinion may have of their respective negotiation positions, is quite different from destruction of any order. Remembering that bankruptcy and default are risks of life, and possibilities for any creditor-debtor relationship

- Seewald is forgetting that Germany has defaulted on its debt more often than Greece during the 20th century. So if default is "destruction of order", then I'm afraid Germans are in no position to give lessons on this

- Speaking of bloodier versions of "destruction of order" than a mere default, I seem to remember that Germany has destroyed Europe's peace not once, but twice, in the 20th century. Seewald should not venture such accusations against Greece or any other European country, because he's in no position to

- On ethnicity, race and peoples, the fact is that most present day peoples are not ethnically identical to what their forefathers were two or three millenia ago. The only exception I could think of is Japanese people. As for the others, they all exchanged gametes in huge ways with other peoples. That is true for Greeks (who include indeed a large Slavic component which was assimilated), for French (Celtic basis, but with strong Germanic and Latin influxes, even before 19th century when that trend accelerated), even for Jews. And of course it's true of Germans who include a large Slavic component which was assimilated long ago (along with several others)
Being a member of a given people is not a question of ethnicity but of culture, birth and "willing to belong". Claiming that present Jews are no real Jews, present Greeks are no real Greeks, or present Germans are no real Germans... is just bollocks

Alexis,

Good posts. But this is what "Europe" has become. The European ideal was one of cooperation and solidarity among the many nations which had joyfully killed each other for centuries. Some of us thought there was an European civilization, and that on such a civilizational foundation we could build a true community of like minded peoples hoping for a more just and tolerant world. Well, those who thought so were definitely not many and "Europe" soon proved it did not exist. In fact there are - as there always were - three "Europes". The Mediterranean, the Northern and the Eastern ones. With France not knowing whether it belongs to the Mediterranean or the Northern - probably Occitania and Corsica belong to the former and the rest to the latter -, and Romania and Bulgaria not knowing whether they belong to the Mediterranean or to the Eastern "Europes". But the sad point is that there is no way one is going to build one "Europe" out of the three mentioned ones. We are completely alien to each other and cannot cooperate in almost anything, with the possible exception of science. To avoid disaster - or even war - the only solution is for each "Europe" to go its independent way. The Mediterranean Europe should create a true Union based on cooperation, solidarity, development and a focus on the southern hemisphere. Northern Europe will be increasingly attracted by the US and will end up being part of the American empire. As such it will gradually lose its European character. Eastern Europe will cozy up to Russia, whether it likes the idea or not. Is that bad? Probably not, as it will allow each "Europe" to preserve its identity. Thanks to massive emigration to America, Northern Europe is in fact more akin to the US than to Europe. And Eastern Europe has mostly a Slavic identity. Let's be friends, let's trade with each other, and let's get out of the way of each other.

excellent summarIES Alexis & Endo - CORRECTION!!!.

As the issues get more complex, and continually parsed, there are an infinite number of "we's" and "them's" into which the larger whole can continually sub-divide.

Survival of the least well deinfed and most rapidly adaptable. Zombies eat the slow runners.....

Culture is always in flux. Thankfully. It is how we adapt as a species.

[Typhoon]

Berthold Seewald, Die Welt's redacteur for culture and history, is wrong on so many counts, one does not know where to begin. And I will not even take the pain of doing so.

OK, I will take the pain. Too irritated by this ignorant.

List of facts:

- Contrary to Seewald's contention, had liberal-minded Europeans of the 1820s not been passionate about Greek independence cause, it would not have prevented the following 1830 and 1848 revolutions. Culprit, if one is needed, is France, her revolution, her megalomaniac emperor and his laws being spread around Europe by way of arms. Consequences of which the Holy Alliance of 1815 could only hope to slow, not to suppress. More distant culprits are France, Britain and America, whose revolutions and other political upheavals reinforced and inspired one another into a political and intellectual movement that could not be suppressed, no matter whether one tried to spread it like Napoléon, or to hinder it

- In Seewald's view, revolutions of 1830 and 1848 were "destruction of Europe's order". I will leave him that opinion. I would only note that if he really thinks so, he should be distressed being German, for Germany was born as a result of 1848 revolution creating the desire for unity, while Bismarck used the 1870 war to actually create that unity. Incidentally, modern Germany is a more recent country than modern Greece

- In Seewald's view, consequences of Greece freeing itself of Turkish yoke with help of France, Britain and Russia, if those consequences were negative, would have to be by the fault of the Greeks. Absurd: one cannot fault a people for desiring to free itself from foreign domination, and if helping that nation was a fault, then it's on France, Britain and Russia

- Contrary to Seewald, Greeks are not presently preparing to "destroy Europe's order". They are negotiating with their creditors, which whatever opinion may have of their respective negotiation positions, is quite different from destruction of any order. Remembering that bankruptcy and default are risks of life, and possibilities for any creditor-debtor relationship

- Seewald is forgetting that Germany has defaulted on its debt more often than Greece during the 20th century. So if default is "destruction of order", then I'm afraid Germans are in no position to give lessons on this

- Speaking of bloodier versions of "destruction of order" than a mere default, I seem to remember that Germany has destroyed Europe's peace not once, but twice, in the 20th century. Seewald should not venture such accusations against Greece or any other European country, because he's in no position to

- On ethnicity, race and peoples, the fact is that most present day peoples are not ethnically identical to what their forefathers were two or three millenia ago. The only exception I could think of is Japanese people. As for the others, they all exchanged gametes in huge ways with other peoples. That is true for Greeks (who include indeed a large Slavic component which was assimilated), for French (Celtic basis, but with strong Germanic and Latin influxes, even before 19th century when that trend accelerated), even for Jews. And of course it's true of Germans who include a large Slavic component which was assimilated long ago (along with several others)
Being a member of a given people is not a question of ethnicity but of culture, birth and "willing to belong". Claiming that present Jews are no real Jews, present Greeks are no real Greeks, or present Germans are no real Germans... is just bollocks

[ Insightful and novel posts like this are why I kept the board going after the former host retired. ]

As an aside, while many Japanese believe the myth of the purity of the so-called Japanese race, the reality is the Japan is also a hybrid mix between at least two genetically distinct groups

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v57/n ... 2121a.html

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/e ... sv074.full

In the end, we are all far far more genetically related than not.

Being a member of a given people is not a question of ethnicity [mod add: and/or genetics] but of culture, birth and "willing to belong". Claiming that present Jews are no real Jews, present Greeks are no real Greeks, or present Germans are no real Germans... is just bollocks

Quite.

[Simple Minded]

[ Insightful and novel posts like this are why I kept the board going after the former host retired. ]

It seems obvious to me, that "We" are the real "them."

Long ago, in ancient times actually, the ancient God-Kings of SimpleMindedStan realized that "power corrupts!"

To preserve our integrity & moral superiority, As a people, "we" have sworn eternal fidelity to geo-political impotence.

"You guys" could learn something from our example....

"outa sight, outa mind" has many more comforts......

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


Germany admits to 'genocide’ of Namibians

.

The speaker of the German parliament has said that a mass killing of indigenous Namibians by German imperial troops a century ago constituted a “genocide.”

Writing in a guest column for news weekly Die Zeit, Norbert Lammert said that the Herero and Nama peoples had been systematically massacred by German imperial troops in the early years of the 20th century.

"Using today's standards of international law, the crushing of the Herero revolt was genocide," Lammert wrote on Wednesday.

Lammert also pointed out that thousands of Namas and Hereros also died from malnutrition and huger in prison camps.

"There were tens of thousands of Herero and Nama victims, not only through fighting but also illness and the targeted killing through allowing people to die of thirst and hunger," the senior German official said, adding, "Others died in concentration camps and in slave labor."

Irritated by German settlers grabbing their land and cattle and taking their women, the Herero people started an uprising in January 1904 with warriors. The revolt was joined by Nama tribe joined one year later

The colonial rulers responded ruthlessly and signed a notorious extermination order against the Hereros.

Figures show German troops massacred around 70,000 Hereros, which amounted to about 80 percent of its population. The troops also wiped out half of the people of the Nama ethnic group.

A large number of victims were beheaded and their skulls sent to German researchers in Berlin for "scientific" experiments.

.

.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


The German-American friendship no longer exists.
Perhaps it has always been an illusion, perhaps the United States pulled away over the course of time.
But
what binds these two nations today cannot be considered friendship.

It wasn't security of the Western world that concerned the Americans. Instead they pursued their own interests, unscrupulously vying for slight political advantages in diplomatic dealings and in the struggle for economic prosperity. The reference to the terrorist threat has long become a fig leaf for habitual and brazen espionage.

In the US, the complaints, such as the ones formulated in this editorial, are taken as naive and twee. They are considered laughable. However, if naivety means that one has not yet given up the belief in fairness as the basis for the partnership, then one should be naive. It is also better than the pathetic act that Merkel's administration has put on for years with regards to the NSA: feigned public outrage over America's tactics.

The German government has engaged in a devil's pact with the US and its Orwellian spying machine. This may have been done out of fear -- fear of not receiving the potentially imperative information about a planned attack. But through her silence, Merkel has made the German government complicit. She allowed the law to be broken. She also permitted the principles that characterize open, democratic societies to be compromised.

Look, Germany now becoming his own man .. and .. German Interest "diverging" from American interest

America should pull back B4 too much damage done

.

[YMix]

Owx40qYKlgo

[Heracleum Persicum]

Owx40qYKlgo

Yes, Agree, German caused it and she must solve it

Angela, there is a price for peace in Europe .. sort of "no war against Germany" tax

in "clear text", Angela loosen the check-book

Zionist getting free "nuclear submarines", Greece want it's share too

All these parasites

Poor Angela


.

[YMix]

in "clear text", Angela loosen the check-book

I have no idea how you came up with that. The "clear text" is: Angela, let German salaries rise along with the economy and stop undercutting other countries.

[Heracleum Persicum]

in "clear text", Angela loosen the check-book

I have no idea how you came up with that. The "clear text" is: Angela, let German salaries rise along with the economy and stop undercutting other countries.

German "salaries", since 50 yrs, decided by "Arbeit nehmer und Arbeit geber" in friendly and "responsible" manner, German "Arbeit nehmer" is meaningfully represented in "company boards" .. that is why no strike,
German workers in prosperity

.

[YMix]

German "salaries", since 50 yrs, decided by "Arbeit nehmer und Arbeit geber" in friendly and "responsible" manner, German "Arbeit nehmer" is meaningfully represented in "company boards" .. that is why no strike,
German workers in prosperity.

Not the point.

[Alexis]

Germany is at it. Again.

The English-speaking press does not mince its words. And this is indeed not a time for politeness.

The euro ‘family’ has shown it is capable of real cruelty

The world is watching what is being done to Greece in the name of euro stability.

It sees a nation stripped of its dignity, its sovereignty, its future.

(...) Who runs these banks, and for whom? Twitter slogans talk of the three world wars: the first waged with guns, the second with tanks and this third world war waged by banks. Extreme? Well, there clearly is more than one way to take over a country.

Greece’s brutal creditors have demolished the eurozone project

By forcing Alexis Tsipras into a humiliating defeat, Greece’s creditors have done a lot more than bring about regime change in Greece (...) They have destroyed the eurozone as we know it and demolished the idea of a monetary union as a step towards a democratic political union.

In doing so they reverted to the nationalist European power struggles of the 19th and early 20th century. They demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany, held together by the threat of absolute destitution for those who challenge the prevailing order. The best thing that can be said of the weekend is the brutal honesty of those perpetrating this regime change.

(it is noteworthy that this has been written by a German citizen)


Killing the European Project

This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can’t accept; but even so, it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for.

(...) But much of the damage has already been done. Who will ever trust Germany’s good intentions after this?

(...) what we’ve learned these past couple of weeks is that being a member of the eurozone means that the creditors can destroy your economy if you step out of line.

(...) The European project — a project I have always praised and supported — has just been dealt a terrible, perhaps fatal blow. And whatever you think of Syriza, or Greece, it wasn’t the Greeks who did it.

Hollande has been shamefully inadequate. History will be very harsh on him, as well as on Merkel. His objective was only to ensure survival of the euro, without any regard to dignity nor sovereignty of Greece, nor even basic common wisdom, nor even any thought of the historical consequences of such a vileny.

While he had in his power to stop Germany cold: he would just have had to say that by continuing to attack Greece, Germany was destroying her relationship not with Greece, but with France. Had it been public enough, the German government could not have overcome such a warning, because the German population remains mostly sound, by contrast with her government.

We're at it again. Hollande is the new Daladier.



One good side to this scandal however, is that it has been made crystal clear what the euro is, and what the European Union is and will remain, as long as the euro exists.

Any idea or hope of getting "another Europe", that is to change and adapt the economic strategy which is embedded into the very existence of the euro, has been shown to be an illusion.

Tsipras - let us not be too harsh on him, even though some will be - believed earnestly such a thing was possible. Given his constant and fiery efforts, if it had been, he would certainly have succeeded. He failed, and his failure is the beacon of even more difficult times for Greece under Euro yoke. But in it also lies a precious lesson.

Unio Europaea delenda
(The European Union needs to be destroyed)

[Typhoon]

With the benefit of hindsight, the Brits made the historically correct decision to stay with their pound currency.

[Endovelico]

The only way out of this mess is leaving the EU. And the southern European countries should then create their own union, based on democracy, liberty, solidarity, human rights. Germans are as good as ever, and everything they touch turns, as always, to s_it!...

[Doc]

With the benefit of hindsight, the Brits made the historically correct decision to stay with their pound currency.

Course they did. As a multi national currency the Euro really does not have a strong foundation. There are no strict rules of short to mid term accountability on even an annual basis. If Greece's financial records for example had been audited at least once a year the problems of the Greek leadership cooking the books would have been apparent before it got into so much trouble. Now those leaders are long gone and it is a horrible mess.

[Doc]

The only way out of this mess is leaving the EU. And the southern European countries should then create their own union, based on democracy, liberty, solidarity, human rights. Germans are as good as ever, and everything they touch turns, as always, to s_it!...

Endo don't you think that is a bit over the top? Greece did sign onto the Euro. One currency to bind them all and what not. 5,000 page constitution as well.

[Endovelico]

The only way out of this mess is leaving the EU. And the southern European countries should then create their own union, based on democracy, liberty, solidarity, human rights. Germans are as good as ever, and everything they touch turns, as always, to s_it!...

Endo don't you think that is a bit over the top? Greece did sign onto the Euro. One currency to bind them all and what not. 5,000 page constitution as well.

The issue is not so much the euro, but the way Greece was treated. It was a repeat of 1940, without the Wehrmacht...

[Alexis]

Hollande has been shamefully inadequate.

Greece is the chicken. Spain, Portugal, Italy and France are the monkeys. Germany holds the (monetary) gun.

Europe does not have a Greek problem.

Europe may have a German problem. (*)

It may be a temporary illusion borne from an arrogant German government, blocked by its previous lies to the German population, and followed by a blind French government aghast at letting "good relations" falter (*)

Or it may be more serious. Time will tell (**)



(*) Again

(**) The following anecdote is not only told by former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, but also by one of De Gaulle's main memorialists Eric Roussel:

De Gaulle was always cagey about an ever-closer union with Germany. He saw unity across the Rhine as a fine sentiment fraught with danger, whatever its merits for France. Even after 1958, when he embraced the idea of a European Union erected along the Franco-German axis, De Gaulle remained guarded about it. When Henry Kissinger once asked him how France would prevent German dominance of the European Union, the French President replied: “Par la guerre!”

Roussel's version includes confirmation by same De Gaulle to another person: "We shall have to run them through"

Remembering, like the saying goes, that WWI was with guns, WWII with tanks, and WWIII with banks. The fact is that if France wanted to play just as much as Germany has played, we could.

[Parodite]

Funny how this monstruous political ideology of a United States of Europe is sold as the antidote to European wars and nartional divisions... and yet brings about exactly the opposite. Old divisions and sentiments having a great rebirth.

[Endovelico]

Funny how this monstruous political ideology of a United States of Europe is sold as the antidote to European wars and nartional divisions... and yet brings about exactly the opposite. Old divisions and sentiments having a great rebirth.

There can't be a United States of Europe as long as northern Europeans feel they are superior to southern Europeans. The only possible European union is that which would be built upon the old Roman foundations, including only the southern European countries.

[YMix]

There can't be a United States of Europe as long as northern Europeans feel they are superior to southern Europeans. The only possible European union is that which would be built upon the old Roman foundations, including only the southern European countries.

Northern Europeans look down on Southern Europeans. Everybody looks down on Eastern Europeans (though we do get to say: Hey, at least we're not Greece. Things could be worse). Not sure how you're going to square it.

[Parodite]

Funny how this monstruous political ideology of a United States of Europe is sold as the antidote to European wars and nartional divisions... and yet brings about exactly the opposite. Old divisions and sentiments having a great rebirth.

There can't be a United States of Europe as long as northern Europeans feel they are superior to southern Europeans. The only possible European union is that which would be built upon the old Roman foundations, including only the southern European countries.

Lets suppose everybody in Greece and Portugal think like you. I see no reason for other European nations to form any union with people which such different ideas about politics and economics.

[Parodite]

There can't be a United States of Europe as long as northern Europeans feel they are superior to southern Europeans. The only possible European union is that which would be built upon the old Roman foundations, including only the southern European countries.

Northern Europeans look down on Southern Europeans. Everybody looks down on Eastern Europeans (though we do get to say: Hey, at least we're not Greece. Things could be worse). Not sure how you're going to square it.

You must be kidding

[Endovelico]

Lets suppose everybody in Greece and Portugal think like you. I see no reason for other European nations to form any union with people which such different ideas about politics and economics.

The "other European nations" I'm talking about, besides Portugal and Greece, are Spain, Italy, Malta, Cyprus, Slovenia, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania. With a total population in excess of 200 million that's all we need. The others may keep being vassals to Germany for all I care...

[Parodite]

Lets suppose everybody in Greece and Portugal think like you. I see no reason for other European nations to form any union with people which such different ideas about politics and economics.

The "other European nations" I'm talking about, besides Portugal and Greece, are Spain, Italy, Malta, Cyprus, Slovenia, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania. With a total population in excess of 200 million that's all we need. The others may keep being vassals to Germany for all I care...

But how many people in those countries would actually want what you want?