Soteriology

[Ibrahim]

In response to question about soteriology in Islam. This is also a new term for me, I haven't seen it used previously.

Super-short answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteriology#Islam


Introductory online answer:
http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/defaul ... v-salv.htm
Excerpt:

From the beginning, God created the human soul and inspired it with its evil and piety (91:6-7). Thus man is as prone to evil and destruction as he is to righteousness and good deeds. With this choice, however, go sin and repentance, and forgiveness and guidance. Adam did disobey his Lord, but then he received certain words from his Lord and He turned towards him, for He is truly relenting, compassionate (2: 36). Thus Adam sinned and was guided back to God by God through revelation. Adam was both the first sinner but also the first prophet. Every man and woman thereafter carries in him or herself the same potential. This is not to say that every human being is a prophet, but that the goal of humanity is life with God. Nowhere more powerfully and aesthetically has this ideal been interiorized and presented than in the lives and works of the mystics, the friends (awliya') of God, whom we call Sufis.

It has already been observed that every human individual is born in the state (fitra) of innate faith in God as the one and only creator and sovereign lord of all beings. What then, it must be asked, is the role of the prophets in human history? Their role is twofold, first to remind men of their covenant with God, or bring them back to the state of pure faith. Man, according to the Qur'an, is a forgetful creature. The Qur'an was sent, as were other scriptures, from God as a reminder. Indeed, one of the many names of the Qur'an is al-Dhikr (the remembrance). The second task of the prophets, or to be more precise, the prophet-messengers, is to transmit divine precepts or moral imperatives which are to regulate human conduct. In Islam, this is known as the shari'a, or sacred law.

So in Islam you have the dual path to salvation, first of following the law and second by repenting and seeking forgiveness for failing to follow the law (the methods of Judaism and Christianity) but what is distinct is that man has no inherently "fallen" state for mankind. Instead, man is given the capacity for both good and evil in equal measure. Paradoxically this ideal state for free will is also wedded to the concept of predestination and fate, though knowledge of fate resides with God and not with us, we still make decisions.

So even the meaning of "salvation" is totally different than in e.g. Christianity. We are not doomed to die and then saved, we're presented with right and wrong in equal measure and choose the outcome. Prophets and the Law ("Shariah") provide guidance, but all salvation comes directly from God without intermediaries.


I'm ignoring various schools of mysticism here, but this is the mainstream view. The specificity of repentance and compliance also varies from sect to sect. E.g. Wahhabis take a much grimmer view than the faculty at al-Azhar, who take a different view than Indonesian imams, etc. Plus traditional Sunni/Shia distinctions. This is the tip of a theological iceberg, but most religions are naturally rather focused on the subject.

[monster_gardener]

In response to question about soteriology in Islam. This is also a new term for me, I haven't seen it used previously.

Super-short answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteriology#Islam


Introductory online answer:
http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/defaul ... v-salv.htm
Excerpt:

From the beginning, God created the human soul and inspired it with its evil and piety (91:6-7). Thus man is as prone to evil and destruction as he is to righteousness and good deeds. With this choice, however, go sin and repentance, and forgiveness and guidance. Adam did disobey his Lord, but then he received certain words from his Lord and He turned towards him, for He is truly relenting, compassionate (2: 36). Thus Adam sinned and was guided back to God by God through revelation. Adam was both the first sinner but also the first prophet. Every man and woman thereafter carries in him or herself the same potential. This is not to say that every human being is a prophet, but that the goal of humanity is life with God. Nowhere more powerfully and aesthetically has this ideal been interiorized and presented than in the lives and works of the mystics, the friends (awliya') of God, whom we call Sufis.

It has already been observed that every human individual is born in the state (fitra) of innate faith in God as the one and only creator and sovereign lord of all beings. What then, it must be asked, is the role of the prophets in human history? Their role is twofold, first to remind men of their covenant with God, or bring them back to the state of pure faith. Man, according to the Qur'an, is a forgetful creature. The Qur'an was sent, as were other scriptures, from God as a reminder. Indeed, one of the many names of the Qur'an is al-Dhikr (the remembrance). The second task of the prophets, or to be more precise, the prophet-messengers, is to transmit divine precepts or moral imperatives which are to regulate human conduct. In Islam, this is known as the shari'a, or sacred law.

So in Islam you have the dual path to salvation, first of following the law and second by repenting and seeking forgiveness for failing to follow the law (the methods of Judaism and Christianity) but what is distinct is that man has no inherently "fallen" state for mankind. Instead, man is given the capacity for both good and evil in equal measure. Paradoxically this ideal state for free will is also wedded to the concept of predestination and fate, though knowledge of fate resides with God and not with us, we still make decisions.

So even the meaning of "salvation" is totally different than in e.g. Christianity. We are not doomed to die and then saved, we're presented with right and wrong in equal measure and choose the outcome. Prophets and the Law ("Shariah") provide guidance, but all salvation comes directly from God without intermediaries.


I'm ignoring various schools of mysticism here, but this is the mainstream view. The specificity of repentance and compliance also varies from sect to sect. E.g. Wahhabis take a much grimmer view than the faculty at al-Azhar, who take a different view than Indonesian imams, etc. Plus traditional Sunni/Shia distinctions. This is the tip of a theological iceberg, but most religions are naturally rather focused on the subject.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

but most religions are naturally rather focused on the subject.

Quite Right.

Recalling a Minister friend of mine, who in one of her sermons said: "Most people's religion is Fire Insurance".

[Marcus]

. . the meaning of "salvation" is totally different than in e.g. Christianity. We are not doomed to die and then saved, . .

Thanks, Ib, I'll print out your post and references for more reflection.


Not sure what the above means, but as written it is a misconception. Christians are "saved" in this life, not the next.


Does Islam have an Ecclesiology?

[Ibrahim]

. . the meaning of "salvation" is totally different than in e.g. Christianity. We are not doomed to die and then saved, . .

Thanks, Ib, I'll print out your post and references for more reflection.


Not sure what the above means, but as written it is a misconception. Christians are "saved" in this life, not the next.

Perhaps I'm misusing the term "saved." I'm referring to original sin, humans being inherently sinful/condemned, but are absolved of this inherent sinfulness through works/faith/being elect depending on whether you are Catholic/Lutheran/Calvinist. This concept doesn't exist in Islam, a person could theoretically live a blameless life.

Does Islam have an Ecclesiology?

Not really because there is no church or priesthood.

[Marcus]

Does Islam have an Ecclesiology?

Not really because there is no church or priesthood.

In Christianity, the believers themselves constitute the "church," the ecclesia. There is no priesthood in Protestantism . . the entire ecclesia constitutes the priesthood. There are only "governors" so to speak, e.g., elders, etc. and offices, e.g., deacons, etc.


What then is the role of the mosque? Simply a meeting house of sorts?

[Ibrahim]

Does Islam have an Ecclesiology?

Not really because there is no church or priesthood.

In Christianity, the believers themselves constitute the "church," the ecclesia. There is no priesthood in Protestantism . . the entire ecclesia constitutes the priesthood. There are only "governors" so to speak, e.g., elders, etc. and offices, e.g., deacons, etc.

Right, Luther's "priesthood of all believers," except they still perform the role of priest in the Eucharist/Lord's Supper/communion/your preferred term. The only time this wouldn't matter at all is for Zwinglian sacramentalists. People believing in transubstantiation or consubstantiation require a person to act in the role of priest.

I thought Anglicans and some Lutherans still used the term "priests." Catholic and Orthodox Christians still have a formal anointed priesthood, of course.

What then is the role of the mosque? Simply a meeting house of sorts?

Pretty much.

[Marcus]

Right, Luther's "priesthood of all believers," except they still perform the role of priest in the Eucharist/Lord's Supper/communion/your preferred term. The only time this wouldn't matter at all is for Zwinglian sacramentalists. People believing in transubstantiation or consubstantiation require a person to act in the role of priest.

I thought Anglicans and some Lutherans still used the term "priests." Catholic and Orthodox Christians still have a formal anointed priesthood, of course.

What then is the role of the mosque? Simply a meeting house of sorts?

Pretty much.

Actually, I think the better word is "officiant," and what the requirements are as such, I imagine, vary from denomination to denomination. I have a lay ordination from a group that eventually came into full communion with the the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America and I officiated at the Lord's Table many times. Have long since been converted to Calvinism.


Yes, some Protestant denominations do use Priest rather than, say, Pastor or Reverend.


Thanks for your answers . . I am genuinely interested. A few more questions: Does Islam have any sort of Eschatology? Is the 70 (?) virgins thing actually Islamic dogma? Is there anything in Islam that would prevent the ultimate, full equality of women in society?


Your knowledge of Christianity is noteworthy. Wish more Christians were that familiar with Islam.

[Nonc Hilaire]

. . the meaning of "salvation" is totally different than in e.g. Christianity. We are not doomed to die and then saved, . .

Thanks, Ib, I'll print out your post and references for more reflection.


Not sure what the above means, but as written it is a misconception. Christians are "saved" in this life, not the next.


Does Islam have an Ecclesiology?

I think the Islamic schools of Fiqh are comparable to ecclesiology in many ways.

[Marcus]

I think the Islamic schools of Fiqh are comparable to ecclesiology in many ways.

Can you flesh that out a bit? Source? Reference?

[monster_gardener]

I think the Islamic schools of Fiqh are comparable to ecclesiology in many ways.

Can you flesh that out a bit? Source? Reference?

Thank You Very Much for your post, Marcus.

Some links to the (in)famous Shafi'i school Fiqh manual, Reliance of the Traveler...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliance_of_the_Traveller

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Travelle ... 0915957728

Good Luck.....

Have read excerpts........ but not the whole thing............ The book is about 1251 pages long.

Enough to know not to Rely on those who Rely on The Reliance of the Traveler.......

Per Wiki not all of it is translated......... Things like rules about slavery are left untranslated in Arabic

For a Quick Look and Links including to other Fiqh manuals for other schools...........

http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... ok-of.html

Excerpts below......

The laws concerning marriage, divorce, crime & punishments, and jihad are imposed upon non-Muslims where Allah's writ runs. Islamic law forbids charging or receiving interest. Shari'ah compliant commerce involves the proscription of all interest and all traffic with Israel. It also involves the payment of 2.5% Zakat on financial transactions as well as on increase in wealth. What most westerners don't know is that 1/8 of Zakat collections must be paid to the terrorists to finance their war against us. It is illegal to give Zakat to Kuffar.

H8.7: The Eight Categories of Recipients
It is obligatory to distribute one's zakat among eight categories of recipients (O: meaning that zakat goes to none besides them), one-eighth of the zakat to each category. (n: In the Hanafi school, it is valid for the giver to distribute his zakat to all of the categories, some of them, or to confine himself to just one of them (al-Lubab fi sharh al-Kitab(y88), 1.155). )
H8.17: Those Fighting for Allah
The seventh category is those fighting for Allah, meaning people engaged in Islamic military operations for whom no salary has been allotted in the army roster (O: but who are volunteers for jihad without remuneration). They are given enough to suffice them for the operation, even if affluent; of weapons, mounts, clothing, and expenses (O: for the duration of the journey, round trip, and the time they spend there, even if prolonged. Though nothing has been mentioned here of the expense involved in supporting such people's families during this period, it seems clear that they should also be given it).

H8.24
It is not permissible to give zakat to a non-Muslim, or to someone whom one is obliged to support (def: m12.1), such as a wife or family member.


Some of the most important provisions have been documented with screen shots from the search engine at Muhaddith.

http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO9-0.html Jihad defined as making war on Kuffar.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO9-1.html The communal obligation to attack Kuffar at least once each year.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO9-8.html The caliph makes war on Jews... codification of 9:29.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO9-9.html The caliph fights all other people... codification of 8:39.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO4-9.html Unequal indemnity for killing non-Muslims.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO1-2.html Honoricide: no retaliation for killing your offspring.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO11-5.html Restrictions on Dhimmis.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO11-10.html Acts which violate Dhimma, subjecting the violator to the death penalty.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO9-13.html Women & children enslaved by reason of capture.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO8-7.html List of acts entailing apostasy.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO8-2.html Penalty for Apostasy.
http://www.crusadersarmory.co.cc/RelianceO25-9.html The eighth duty of subordinate rulers: to undertake Jihad.


A series of blog posts about Shari'ah has been compiled into a Windows Help File (chm). Shari'ah.chm (100K Zipped) Compiled from a series of articles about Shari'ah, how it can affect you and what you can do to stop it.

Reliance is the handbook of Shafi'i fiqh, authenticated by the Sheikhs of Al-Azhar University. The Maliki school's Risala is shorter, less detailed and easier to read. Unfortunately, it is only available in pdf format here: http://www.baytulislam.org/Documents/fi ... i-Fiqh.pdf

Hedaya is the handbook of Hanifi fiqh. Printed in an antique type face, densely packed and couched in arcane and archaic vocabulary, it is difficult to read. Hedaya, however, points out the differences between itself and the Shafi'i school. making it a useful tool for research. It adds a great deal of clarity to the issues of Jihad & Jizya. These links go directly to those issues in the second volume of the two volume edition.

http://ia700204.us.archive.org/10/items ... f#page=154

http://ia700204.us.archive.org/10/items ... f#page=227

Avoid the comments unless having a thick skin about Islam.....

Not an Islam friendly site..........

A mild excerpt..........

Most telling, for me, is the definition of slander.

"Slander (ghiba) means to mention anything
concerning a person that he would dislike..."

[Ibrahim]

I think the Islamic schools of Fiqh are comparable to ecclesiology in many ways.

Can you flesh that out a bit? Source? Reference?

That would be Islamic theology and, I suppose, exegesis. Experts in jurisprudence are the counterparts of Christian theologians. I don't see it as ecclesiology.

[Nonc Hilaire]

I think the Islamic schools of Fiqh are comparable to ecclesiology in many ways.

Can you flesh that out a bit? Source? Reference?

That would be Islamic theology and, I suppose, exegesis. Experts in jurisprudence are the counterparts of Christian theologians. I don't see it as ecclesiology.

Christian ecclesiology is rooted in theology and exegesis. There may a beneficial basis for comparison there, but maybe not.

My first questions would be do the different fiqh schools co-exist, or do they tend to center around different geographical areas and traditions? Do they worship together?

And Marcus, I'm going to leave the references for the Muslim members. Maybe I'll learn something.

[Ibrahim]

I think the Islamic schools of Fiqh are comparable to ecclesiology in many ways.

Can you flesh that out a bit? Source? Reference?

That would be Islamic theology and, I suppose, exegesis. Experts in jurisprudence are the counterparts of Christian theologians. I don't see it as ecclesiology.

Christian ecclesiology is rooted in theology and exegesis. There may a beneficial basis for comparison there, but maybe not.

My first questions would be do the different fiqh schools co-exist, or do they tend to center around different geographical areas and traditions? Do they worship together?

And Marcus, I'm going to leave the references for the Muslim members. Maybe I'll learn something.

Maybe I just don't understand what "ecclesilogy" means to Christians.


There are four main schools of Isalmic justiprudence, and in some cases two or more coexist within the same universities. Then again there are others who hate anybody who doesn't belong to their school of interpretation, and then in extreme cases are violent about it. So as always its difficult to make generalizations. Generally you get Shia and Summi groupings, so there might be different schools of interpretation at e.g. al-Azhar but all Sunni. Shia schools would have proponents in the major Shia universities. Though many of these were in Iran, and I don't know if the regime enforces conformity to one or the other. Traditionally they would have coexisted.

I can't provide any great sources on Islamic jurisprudence since I don't know all that much about it. As a rule it involves deciding what God wants you to do in situation X, finding a verse in the Quran, and then commentary/Hadiths that support that as well. While this is a very detailed science that takes years to master, its also very tedious to me. I'm familiar with the Quran, but not the Hadiths, and certainly not in commentary on the Hadiths. Arguably you can't even do any of this without a strong knowledge of classical Arabic, which I also lack.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Maybe I just don't understand what "ecclesilogy" means to Christians.

Most Christians have no idea what ecclesiology/soteriology/eschatology etc. mean. They are seminary level terms which refer to why one is asking particular questions. Ecclesiology is asking "How/why do we structure worship?". When you have as many sects and denominations as we do it helps keep theological discussions on topic.

I have read a quite a few volumes of hadith, and if there is an Islamic ecclesiology I think that is the primary resource. Major disconnects I see between the ecclesiology in the hadith and the filtered perception of Islam projected in the US is Muhammad's belief that religious practice should be easy, and Muhammad's frequent insistence that the message was the point and that he as the messenger was only incidental.

Unless I'm wrong, and Islam is really the Westboro Baptist Church with scimitars.

[Ibrahim]

Maybe I just don't understand what "ecclesilogy" means to Christians.

Most Christians have no idea what ecclesiology/soteriology/eschatology etc. mean. They are seminary level terms which refer to why one is asking particular questions. Ecclesiology is asking "How/why do we structure worship?". When you have as many sects and denominations as we do it helps keep theological discussions on topic.

I have read a quite a few volumes of hadith, and if there is an Islamic ecclesiology I think that is the primary resource. Major disconnects I see between the ecclesiology in the hadith and the filtered perception of Islam projected in the US is Muhammad's belief that religious practice should be easy, and Muhammad's frequent insistence that the message was the point and that he as the messenger was only incidental.

Well I assumed ecclesiology meant rules governing organized worship. My conception of "church" is heavily based on Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, the two sects I am more familiar with, and in both the church refers to both all believers and as a separate "thing" unto itself. I.e. the "Catholic Church" is all Catholics, but also specific institutions.

Theologically speaking Islam doesn't make any distinctions between how you should live and how you should worship, both are part of Shariah, or "holy law" is its often translated. The untangling of exactly what that means in any given instance is the work of Islamic jurisprudence/Fiqh, so for any question there could be a many different answers, and there are some (e.g. Sufis) who reject legalism entirely.

Its unfortunate that "Shariah" wa seized upon by alarmists after 2001 and has become synonymous with extremism in North American public discourse, but properly speaking whatever Muslims are doing that they think is the right thing to do is Shariah. Obviously this is an enormously broad category.

[Nonc Hilaire]

After reading almost forty volumes of Bukhari hadith, and other hadith in other collections, my opinion is that both Jesus and Muhammad would both be quite disappointed with the majority of people who speak of them with presumed authority today.

[Marcus]

A few more questions:

Does Islam have any sort of Eschatology?

Is the 70 (?) virgins thing actually Islamic dogma?

Is there anything in Islam that would prevent the ultimate, full equality of women in society?

Does Islam make any attempt to engage Darwinistic Materialism?

Thanks for all thus far . . .

[Nonc Hilaire]

A few more questions:

Does Islam have any sort of Eschatology?

Islamic eschatology (end times prophecy) is remarkably consistent with Christian belief, including Jesus' return to preside over the final judgment.

[Ibrahim]

A few more questions:

Does Islam have any sort of Eschatology? .

Yes, there is a Day of Judgment, also called the Day of Resurrection. Basically the end of the world/universe. The "resurrection" doesn't refer to God or a Prophet like Jesus or Muhammad, but rather all humans judged worthy of admission to Paradise.

Is the 70 (?) virgins thing actually Islamic dogma?

Its not in the Quran, its mentioned in a Hadith but its unclear what is meant and people differ over the meaning. There isn't really anything like "dogma" in Islam, but there is certainly no clear rule or teaching about this. I.e. the common claim "in Islam if you die in battle/jihad you receive 72 virgins in Heaven" is false. I think it was a poetic flourish as part of a list of superlatives describing Heaven to people who might have been somewhat literal-minded.

This is what wikipedia says on the matter, you can click around if you want to know more.

The idea of 72 virgins in Islam refers to an aspect of paradise. In a collection by Abu `Isa Muhammad ibn `Isa at-Tirmidhi in his Jami` at-Tirmidhi[55] and also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir ibn Kathir of sura 55[56] it is stated:
It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard Muhammad saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a.[57]

However, regarding the above statement Hafiz Salahuddin Yusuf has said: "The narration, which claims that everyone would have seventy-two wives has a weak chain of narrators."[39] There is also a theory that the promise of 72 virgins is a mistranslation from "72 angels".[58]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#72_virgins

Is there anything in Islam that would prevent the ultimate, full equality of women in society?

Depends who you ask. I say no, but obviously some Wahhabis disagree. Everything Muhammad ever said about women was to improve their status and treatment relative to the cultural norms of pre-Islamic Arabia. If you are hyper-literal then this will stop short of modern egalitarianism, but I think it implies full equality.

Quran 3.194 "I disregard not the works of any who work among you, Be they male or female, The one is like the other."

Quran 4.124 "Whoso does good deeds, whether male or female, and has faith, shall enter the Garden and will not be wronged one fleck."

Does Islam make any attempt to engage Darwinistic Materialism?

Yeah, Islam has a version of "Intelligent design" theory, and there are also those who argue that, based on certain Quranic verses about procreation, that the Quran is describing gene theory, though I think that is a stretch at best. The majority of Muslims in the world are what we in North America call "creationists."

[Marcus]

Thanks, Ib, I wish that face of Islam were more familiar.

Best . .

[Ibrahim]

Thanks, Ib, I wish that face of Islam were more familiar.

Most of the news is generated by extremists. As I used to say on SpengFor, a man going to work andgoing home to have dinner with his family isn't news.


I think the other problem is informal segregation. People in large cities live next to people from other cultures and see them all the time, which in most cases familiarizes them with other people, Muslim immigrants being one such group. But in the US plenty of people have never really interacted with Muslims beyond "the guy at the gas station looks Muslim" so its alien to them. This is why rural communities are always more conservative on "ethnic" or "cultural" issues than urbanites, on average.

[monster_gardener]

A few more questions:

Does Islam have any sort of Eschatology?

Islamic eschatology (end times prophecy) is remarkably consistent with Christian belief, including Jesus' return to preside over the final judgment.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Nonc.

Islamic eschatology (end times prophecy) is remarkably consistent with Christian belief, including Jesus' return to preside over the final judgment.

Maybe....

Maybe Not So Much......

Could depend on the meaning of this Hadith...........

Narrated Abu Hurairah: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts)."
—Collected by Muhammad al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Bukhari[29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_I ... ond_coming

Break the Cross: .... Symbol of Christianity..............

Kill the Pigs: Could just mean that Porky Pig , Pig Farmers and Maxwell the Geico Insurance Mascot Pig are in trouble. .........................

Except that in Islam, pigs are symbolic of Christians


And abolish the jizya tax: At first it sounds great........ Who wants to get punched on the jaw even when you pay your protection money on time.........

Until you think about possible reasons why........ Maybe the Muslim Dons* don't want your stinking protection money anymore and Christian & Other Pigs beware......
The Jihad is on...... Convert or Die.............

"... the time and the place for [the poll tax] is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus' descent (upon him and our Prophet be peace) ..." (The Reliance of the Traveller. Trans. Nuh Ha Mim Keller, p. 603).

xJrgcmqbuhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJrgcmqbuhQ


*IMO Worse than Mafia Dons...

[Nonc Hilaire]

Where does this pigs symbolizing Christians idea come from?

What is not symbolic in the hadith is Jesus descending in the end times as the just ruler. I think that is remarkably similar to what is in the Revelations of John.

[Ibrahim]

Where does this pigs symbolizing Christians idea come from?

Is that a distinctly Islamic-on-Christian thing? Calling somebody a pig is an insult pretty much all over the world. Somebody being the literal descendant of a dog of pig is a big Arabic insult, on a personal or collective level.

What is not symbolic in the hadith is Jesus descending in the end times as the just ruler. I think that is remarkably similar to what is in the Revelations of John.

Islamic conceptions of Jesus are quite close to some of the early Christian ones that did not become canon (e.g. Arrianism). Tarif Khalidi wrote a book called The Muslim Jesus that discusses all this in greater detail.
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Muslim-Jesus-S ... =8-2-spell

[Nonc Hilaire]

[quote="

Islamic conceptions of Jesus are quite close to some of the early Christian ones that did not become canon (e.g. Arrianism). Tarif Khalidi wrote a book called The Muslim Jesus that discusses all this in greater detail.
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Muslim-Jesus-S ... =8-2-spell[/quote]

I'll look that book up. I know hadith point out that Muhammad's prophetic character was first proclaimed by a Nestorian hermit, and Kadijah's uncle was an Ebionite bishop. Both these early Christian sects discounted the Godly nature of Jesus and were violently persecuted by the orthodox Christians of their day.