The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Enki
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The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by Enki »

The interpretation of the parable of the talents, I believe has been interpreted diametrically opposite to the message contained within. The mainstream interpretation must completely abuse and destroy context for it to mean what people have been taking it to mean. People have interpreted it to say that Jesus rewards those who invest well. I look at it a different way and see it as political satire. Jesus is not the King rewarding his subjects for good investment acumen in this story, the King in this story is Herod. Herod is a cruel and avaricious master, punishing those who do not increase his fortune, and rewarding those who do.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

First lets look at interpretations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_o ... pretations

As a teaching for Christians

This is the most debased and abused one, because it puts Christ/God in the position of absentee landlord. It assumes that in this one instance, Christ is saying the opposite of what he says everywhere else. How can, 'The meek inherit the Earth', if 'the meek who have nothing shall have what little they have taken from them still.'

As a critique of religious leaders

This starts to make more sense, but is still divorced from context.

As a social critique

This one makes the most sense, but still, the context is not completely accounted for.

There is also a lot written about the value of a Mina, I think the value of a Mina is simply irrelevant.

Now, lets look at it from the whole context.
Zacchaeus the Tax Collector

19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Here is where the stage is set for context. Zeccaeus a Publican is a sinner because he has gotten rich taking money from the lowest to give to the highest. He extracts wealth from the poor to serve the rich. Upon meeting Christ he decides to give away half of his wealth and to pay restitution to those he has wronged from the remainder. Christ praises this action and says that salvation has returned and this man is a true son of Abraham who has remembered who his people are. Zecchaeus is clearly one who has been rewarded by Herod, after all, he is the Chief Publican.
The Parable of the Ten Minas

11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
Lets put this into the context of when he was speaking. “A man of noble birth (Herod) went to a Rome to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
The people of Israel don't like being ruled by Herod.
15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
He was made King and went back to Rome.
16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
Herod rewards those who have increased his fortune.
20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’
The third servant rebukes Herod.
22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
This servant has not stolen anything, he has not lost anything. Herod has what he had to begin with, but the servant is punished simply because he did not increase Herod's fortune.
25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
This is where it demonstrates the opposite of every value Jesus has ever stated. The meek have their small portion taken from them in order to reward the rich.
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King

28 After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29 As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30 “Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it.’”

32 Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33 As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?”

34 They replied, “The Lord needs it.”

35 They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. 36 As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road.

37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

38 “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!”
“Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”

40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”


In this Jesus does not ask for anything, he does not take from people, he does not rebuke them for not giving enough. His followers ask for the donkey, the people spontaneously create the carpet leading him toward Jerusalem.

Jesus at the Temple

45 When Jesus entered the temple courts, he began to drive out those who were selling. 46 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer’[c]; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[d]”

47 Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him. 48 Yet they could not find any way to do it, because all the people hung on his words.


Jesus disrupts commerce at the temple and stops all of those people working furiously to turn one Mina into ten from doing so.
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Enki
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by Enki »

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Here is Matthew. We can deconstruct Matthew as well. But I would say the parable of the sheep and the goats contradicts the interpretation regarding God rewarding the rich and punishing the poor that so many people take from the parable of the talents.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Swing and a miss.

Jesus never used sin to teach righteousness. If investing were sinful he wouldn't have used it in parable. There was no parable of the pimp and the hooker.

Investing is life.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

I'm pleased that you are reading your Bible, Enki.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Swing and a miss.

Jesus never used sin to teach righteousness. If investing were sinful he wouldn't have used it in parable. There was no parable of the pimp and the hooker.

Investing is life.
Except that Jesus espoused charity which is the opposite of investment. Propserity gospel adherents like yourself have to ignore the obvious allusion to Herod, and they have to ignore pretty much EVERYTHING JESUS SAID besides that. Like in order to interpret the Parable of the Talents the way in which you do, you have to ignore the first part of Luke 19 and the last part, and only read the middle, except the part about King Herod.

It's also obvious that you didn't read it.

The world in which investing is life is the Fallen World. The buying and selling of one another is precisely what 'fallen' means. You hit the keystone of the arch of this fallen world. This world can be a paradise. And besides everything belongs to God, so really you're just claiming you own it, when really God owns it. You are investing that which you did not earn, as it says in the passage.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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God said "THOU SHALT NOT STEAL", endowing both of us with property rights. He went on to talk about coveting, you may want to look into that;

Jesus gave many parables of vineyards. Do you know what a vineyard is? Capital... Capital is life.

I only discuss the contents of the Bible with people who believe in it or are interested in learning if it is true. I don't educate belligerents.

Find a parable of the pimp and hooker and then perhaps we can talk more. Earth could be a paradise, if the people were to embrace Christianity, liberty and free enterprise.

In order to give money away you first must have an income stream; capital.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by anderson »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Swing and a miss.

Jesus never used sin to teach righteousness. If investing were sinful he wouldn't have used it in parable. There was no parable of the pimp and the hooker.

Investing is life.
The argument isn't that "investing is sinful." The argument is that the parable wasn't about investing.

His argument is compelling and connects well with the context of other teachings of Jesus and with the larger socio-historical context. If you want to challenge the argument, you have to actually engage with it.
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Ah, the Wisdom of the Bible

Post by Taboo »

A more on topic analogy from Mathew some chapter and verse or another. 6:24-34 (Luke 12:24-27)

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
This one's pretty clear. Obsession with money to the exclusion of human kindness is judged to be wrong by the text. I'm taking it for granted here that "serving God" is assumed to be good.

"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?"
Ah, do not be crass materialists. Tithe, damn it! Tithe! Life is not about food, shelter or water, it's about pleasing Jesus' dad by pleasing your local parish priest.

" Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?"
Well, in light of evolutionary theory and advances in biology we now know that 99% of species are extinct, and that most offspring of most animals die before even reaching adult stage. Virtually all wild animals die violent, painful deaths at the hands of predators and parasites. I surely hope we are of more value to the "Heavenly Father" (no, not Kim-Jong-Un, you tit, but Jesus' Dad)

"And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life?"
Well, being materially anxious about the future, while not exactly spiritually uplifting, is likely to result in saving for lean times, which, in the historical context, were bound to come on occasion. Batting 0 for 2 at the moment (am I even using those terms right? :))

"And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin;"
This is my favorite anti-capitalist passage in the Bible. The text has Jesus here seemingly advocating that we should all just sit on our ass and Worship his dad. Presumably, unlike in Soviet Russia, mana would pour out of the sky or something.

"yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these."
Image
Indeed. The Negev desert stands a stark reminder of how beautifully lilies grow in the blessed land of Israel.

"Therefore do not be anxious, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?' 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. 34 "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day. "
Ah, nothing like fatalism and blind belief in external relief to turn one into an industrious little capitalist.

The Parable of the Talents is quite straigthforward, in rewarding dogged obedience and rampant activism for the sake of your preferred religious meme, one of the many little things that make Christianity a universalist proselytizing religion. I interpret these talents here as being of the purely spiritual, convert-making variety. The version in Luke is more straight-forward in promising rewards in the "Kingdom" for those who do most ably the bidding of their "Lord." IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY, and everything to do with spiritual converting zeal.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by Taboo »

Tinker's argument is interesting, especially in light of the version in Luke. However, by the time we get to the Mathew version, the meaning has been altered to be allegorical.
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Re: Ah, the Wisdom of the Bible

Post by YMix »

Taboo wrote:"Therefore do not be anxious, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?' 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. 34 "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day. "
Ah, nothing like fatalism and blind belief in external relief to turn one into an industrious little capitalist.
Not to mention:

Deuteronomy 23:19 Thou shalt not lend upon interest to thy brother: interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of any thing that is lent upon interest.

That's genuine capitalism right there.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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anderson wrote: The argument isn't that "investing is sinful." The argument is that the parable wasn't about investing.
Tinker's argument is a strawman argument. No one I've ever seen on these forums has ever said this parable was about investing. Investing is the parable, or figure, which if it was a sin would not have been used.
His argument is compelling and connects well with the context of other teachings of Jesus and with the larger socio-historical context. If you want to challenge the argument, you have to actually engage with it.
Engage a strawman argument? What for?
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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The parable of the talents I never read as a pro- or con monetary investments, but more as a useful analogy (people knew Herods ways..) to make the audience understand that you have to "invest" in God, the Good Life to get the right returns. The investment bank there has only one currency, the l-word; Love. Then all the rest will be fine; included the material aspects of life.

That he overturned the tables of money exchangers in the Temple in my reading neither means he was anti-money or anti interest, but rather that in his opinion and taste the place was thusly not used according its holy purpose, a bit like shitting in the kitchen.
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Re: Ah, the Wisdom of the Bible

Post by Enki »

Taboo wrote: The Parable of the Talents is quite straigthforward, in rewarding dogged obedience and rampant activism for the sake of your preferred religious meme, one of the many little things that make Christianity a universalist proselytizing religion. I interpret these talents here as being of the purely spiritual, convert-making variety. The version in Luke is more straight-forward in promising rewards in the "Kingdom" for those who do most ably the bidding of their "Lord." IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY, and everything to do with spiritual converting zeal.
No, it's the opposite. He is CRITICIZING the master in the parable. He is saying, "That Herod is a bastard." The Lord in the parable IS NOT JESUS.
Last edited by Enki on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

Post by Enki »

Taboo wrote:Tinker's argument is interesting, especially in light of the version in Luke. However, by the time we get to the Mathew version, the meaning has been altered to be allegorical.
Actually if you read the whole chapter in Matthew it's interesting because of its relationship to the Sheep and the Goats.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Parodite wrote:The parable of the talents I never read as a pro- or con monetary investments, but more as a useful analogy (people knew Herods ways..) to make the audience understand that you have to "invest" in God, the Good Life to get the right returns. The investment bank there has only one currency, the l-word; Love. Then all the rest will be fine; included the material aspects of life.
It's not a story about investing, it's a story about a cruel despot whose reign is illegitimate. Note: "Did not earn.", "You are a cruel master and I am afraid of you.", "Went to a foreign land to be crowned King.", "Delegation sent to the foreign land to tell them you are not our King."
That he overturned the tables of money exchangers in the Temple in my reading neither means he was anti-money or anti interest, but rather that in his opinion and taste the place was thusly not used according its holy purpose, a bit like shitting in the kitchen.
I think he was pretty clearly anti-money and anti-interest based upon a full reading of the bible. What makes the Parable of the Talents interesting is its abused context by Prosperity Theologians as an apologia for capitalism.

Christ is clearly saying, "It's money or God, your choice.", and in that money is also Caesar.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Just to drive the point home about how much Jesus hated money:
1 Come now, ye rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you.

2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.

3 Your gold and your silver are rusted; and their rust shall be for a testimony against you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye have laid up your treasure in the last days.

4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

5 Ye have lived delicately on the earth, and taken your pleasure; ye have nourished your hearts in a day of slaughter.

6 Ye have condemned, ye have killed the righteous [one]; he doth not resist you.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Enki wrote:Just to drive the point home about how much Jesus hated money:
1 Come now, ye rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you.

2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.

3 Your gold and your silver are rusted; and their rust shall be for a testimony against you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye have laid up your treasure in the last days.

4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

5 Ye have lived delicately on the earth, and taken your pleasure; ye have nourished your hearts in a day of slaughter.

6 Ye have condemned, ye have killed the righteous [one]; he doth not resist you.
Could also be that he not so much "hated money" but rather the selfishness and greed of people, of those in power in particular. Greed, selfishness tends to jive well with power, the extortion of the powerless and poor follows. "Give me half of your money, give me half of your harvest, your gold and silver, give me your virgin daughters..." It is about stealing what is not yours, using force or the threat of force. His battle was not against the symptoms or the tools used to abuse and exploit, rather his concern was the separation from man of his God, becoming unempathically blind to the needs of man's fellow man.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
This speaks to investment specifically. It is talking about reaping what others have sown.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Enki wrote:
4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
This speaks to investment specifically. It is talking about reaping what others have sown.
Don't think it is about investment really. More about how people may invest and use their power position to exploit others.

Talking about power positions; God is often portrayed as the ultimate power house. He made and owns the Universe for starters. He made us, and can now break us at will. The Abramite religions all three struggle in finding and doing the will of their Owner. Of their Bank and Law giver. To pay all the bills, to go from sinful deficit to a situation of joyeous credit. To sit at the right side of God in the Plus forever and not on the left where Chapter 11 sends you to eternal oblivion below Zero. "Thou shalt be as Bankers"
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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If Jesus hated money why did he want poor people to have it? Any ideas?
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Enki wrote:
4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
This speaks to investment specifically. It is talking about reaping what others have sown.
Sounds like Jesus wants people to get paid. With dirty money.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Fun to speculate. What would Jesus think? Would he abolish banks? Would there be trade, if so in what format? Interest wrong per-se? Exchange using money or good old bartering? Do people share what they own, or is ownership in the ideal Christian society a non-starter? Should people organize a central body that can co-ordinate and collect charity to feed the poor et-al more efficiently? Or would any such bureaucratic system stand in between people and dehumanize society in the long run and be too vulnerable to centralized abuse? Etc..

Seems to me that Jesus did not see himself as a socio-economic engineer of sorts let alone a political activist. On the contrary, his message was dump all that sh*t and go back to the basics and get them right first. Those basics can not be engineered, they come about by magic; to do the trick without knowing how it works. By faith.. or something like that. Plus being concerned about others more than about your self. And if the reality is that you don't give a damn about others much as you don't feel it... you can always pray for change.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Parodite wrote:On the contrary, his message was dump all that sh*t and go back to the basics and get them right first. Those basics can not be engineered, they come about by magic; to do the trick without knowing how it works. By faith.. or something like that. Plus being concerned about others more than about your self. And if the reality is that you don't give a damn about others much as you don't feel it... you can always pray for change.
That's a pretty good assessment of the New Testament's take on the society and economy, but I'd say that Jesus's message was: dump all that sh*t, repent and love your neighbor because my dad's kingdom is coming in 5... 4... 3... Since the kingdom was about to happen, there was no point in worrying about anything, except salvation.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Mr. Perfect, so you are saying if I sow tomato seeds I will reap money?

I thought I would reap tomatoes, but you know more about farming than I do.
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Re: The Parable of the Talents has been so wrong

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Good question Tinker. If you grow tomatoes, then yes you will have tomatoes. We are agreed on this subject.

However, what if you need toilet paper? What if you don't know how to make toilet paper. One option would be to find someone with toilet paper who wants tomatoes, and you could trade. At that point your tomatoes become money... so you grew tomatoes and money at the same time.

Let's grasp this concept first then we can move on.
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