NYC gun laws fail

Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Time for common sense reforms, recognize the right of gay people to carry guns, the police cannot protect them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... DL20130519
Greenwich Village, the birthplace of the U.S. gay rights movement, remained in shock on Sunday over the shooting death of a gay man by a gunman who police said uttered anti-gay slurs before targeting the victim.

Mark Carson, 32, was shot dead in Greenwich Village around midnight on Friday in what police are calling a hate crime. Others say it could be a backlash against the recent advance of gay marriage laws across the United States.

The Manhattan neighborhood has long been a haven for bohemians and artists, and its Stonewall Inn has been a landmark for gay rights since a 1969 clash when patrons of the gay bar resisted a police raid.

Sympathizers built a shrine to Carson on Sunday, leaving cards, candles and flowers at the spot where he was killed, on Sixth Avenue at Eighth Street.

"This is supposed to be like the world's capital where it's OK to be gay," said Josh Steinman, 42, who paused for a moment in front of the memorial.

The attack marked the 22nd anti-gay hate crime in New York City this year, compared to 13 incidents at this time last year, New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said.

"It's clear that victim here was killed only because, and just because, he was thought to be gay," Kelly told reporters on Sunday. "There's no question about that. There were derogatory remarks. This victim did nothing to antagonize or instigate the shooter. It was only because the shooter believed him to be gay."

A suspect identified as Elliot Morales, 33, was arrested on a charge of second degree murder as a hate crime shortly after the shooting. He is being held without bail and two of his companions are cooperating with police, Kelly said.

"I can't believe that something like that happened in the Village," said Carmine Tzavis, 40, a bartender at Stonewall Inn.

The police commissioner stopped short of confirming an increase in anti-gay attacks because, he said, hate crimes are typically underreported, so the data are skewed.

People in the Village said they were alarmed and feared the violence may have been sparked by the rapid passage of gay marriage laws.

On Tuesday, Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton signed a bill making his state the 12th to allow same-sex couples to marry.

"I seem to think it's an overreaction to the marriage equality stuff," said Brian Kennedy, 56, who came to the crime scene on Sunday to pay his respects.

Kennedy, who is gay, said he moved to New York from Atlanta in 1991 because he believed the city would be more accepting. Now he has his doubts.

"Getting beat up is one thing. Getting shot point-blank in the face is another," Kennedy said.

The Anti-Violence Project has organized a march and vigil at the crime scene on Monday.

A spokesman for the anti-defamation group GLAAD called the killing "a stark and sobering reminder of the rife homophobia that still exists in our culture."

"Until we rid our society of the discrimination that allows us to be seen as inferior and less than human, we will never truly be safe, even in one of the most accepting cities in the world," spokesman Wilson Cruz said in a statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_York

The murderer was either licensed by the state or he flouted the laws. Either way the law failed.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Taboo
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 11:05 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Taboo »

One flower does not spring make, nor does one case prove a point. I lack a strong view on the issue myself, but here's some contrary evidence, more statistically grounded:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... o/1969227/
Study: States with more gun laws have less gun violence

Fleegler and researchers from Boston Children's Hospital, Harvard Medical School and Harvard School of Public Health studied information from all 50 states between 2007 to 2010, analyzing all firearm-related deaths reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and data on firearm laws compiled by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

States with the most laws had a mortality rate 42% lower than those states with the fewest laws, they found. The strong law states' firearm-related homicide rate was also 40% lower and their firearm-related suicide rate was 37% lower.

Specifically, Fleeger pointed to states with many gun laws like Massachusetts, which had 3.4 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people, and New Jersey, which had 4.9 gun-deaths per 100,000 people. Conversely, he focused on states with less laws like Louisiana, which had 18 deaths per 100,000 individuals and Alaska, which had 17.5 deaths per 100,000 individuals.

The study also found that laws requiring universal background checks and permits to purchase firearms were most clearly associated with decreasing rates of gun-related homicides and suicides.
I don't see what the big deal about universal background checks and permits is. We do want the guns in the hands of sane non-criminal types, so if background checks can filter out some undesired owners, how is that a bad thing?
User avatar
Taboo
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 11:05 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Taboo »

Some extra graphs:
Image
Of course, these are just correlations.

Image
The above includes all deaths, including suicide, accidental and defensive use. Which is why they will seem larger then the homicide rate.
User avatar
Enki
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Enki »

Republican states whatcha gonna do?
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Your data sources seem to be completely from thin air, or the onion or something. Don't go with the onion.

9 of the 10 lowest gun murder states have no gun laws at all. Hawaii is the exception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_i ... s_by_state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state (sort by gun murder rate per 100,000)

Of the top 10 murder cities and states nearly all have the most restrictive gun laws.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Enki
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Enki »

So when someone fails to shoot a murderer in a pro-gun state, is that a failure of those gun laws?
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Taboo wrote: I don't see what the big deal about universal background checks and permits is. We do want the guns in the hands of sane non-criminal types, so if background checks can filter out some undesired owners, how is that a bad thing?
Permits create registries that can among other things be leaked to the media/by the media. There is no record of a permit preventing a crime.

75% of weapons used by criminals are obtained illegally, they don't go through any background checks at all. So legal gun owners will go through the system while criminals will avoid it. The harm comes, speaking as a gun owner, when paperwork is filled out incompletely or in error, the creation of Martha Stewart crimes. Background checks create a legal burden on law abiding gun owners and do not prevent a gun crime. They also can be used as a basis for a registry. And there is the bit about "not being infringed", if I go to buy a gun and a man says no, unless this this this that is by definition an infringement.

See here. Notice how many guns come from gun shows. You have been lied to. And please read the gun thread, all this has been covered.

Source: usdoj

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Firearmsources.svg

Image
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote:So when someone fails to shoot a murderer in a pro-gun state, is that a failure of those gun laws?
Reword and try again.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

tabs, to continue, the reason we would consider defensive use and accidents separately is because they would be more of a function of ownership, a gun owner is more likely to have an accident or use it defensively than someone who does not by definition so gun owning states would rank higher, and defensive use should be listed AS A POSITIVE.

Murder is a different case, it is NOT equally distributed among gun owners. It is HEAVILY distributed among young males in the drug business, many of which cannot own a handgun legally (under 21). If you stay away from young males in the drug business your likelihood of being murdered drops to almost anywhere else in the world, near zero. Carry a gun and it plummets even further.


Gun murder has been dropping for 20 years, GOP or Dem in power nationally, while gun ownership has been going up and gun freedoms on the increase

DON"T SCREW IT UP.

Do not listen to the left, they are full of lies and struggle to think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... ted_States

Image

Image
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Enki
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect, I still have you on ignore. I always know that if you reply to a post more than once that your replies are just trolling so I never read them.

Just an FYI if you want to make sure your zingers actually get read by their intended audience.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

And...?
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

While Tinker worries about "trolling", human beings are concerned about right and wrong, and the conclusions are inevitable. Good on these gays. Good for them.

http://www.edgeonthenet.com/news/nation ... subculture
Gays and guns seem as likely to go together as Nicki Minaj and Mariah Carey. As a culture, even under attack, we are a peaceful lot -- you catch more bees with honey, right?

"Wrong," says Gwendolyn Patton of Pink Pistols, a group that advocates gun ownership for the LGBT community. With taglines like "pick on someone your own caliber," and "armed gays don’t get bashed," Patton says Pink Pistols changes the perception that gay people are easy victims.

"We teach queers to shoot, and then we teach the rest of the world we’ve done it," Patton told WBEZ91.5, a public radio station in Chicago. "Because then they may think twice about using (LGBT people) as a target."

Doug Krick, a libertarian activist from Illinois founded the Pink Pistols in July 2000 while living in Massachusetts. The organization now has 60 chapters in 33 states and three countries. The group’s activities include firing range visits, political activism and will occasionally produce report cards on politicians; rating them on their position on issues of interest to members. Other than that, little is known about the organization and it’s even difficult to know just how big the Pink Pistols movement is because the organization doesn’t keep a national count.

While some might roll their eyes, advocates like Chuck Michel, a spokesman for the California Rifle and Pistol Association and a lawyer for the National Rifle Association, does not. In fact, in 2005, at the height of the Proposition H ordinance debate, which gained national attention for seeking to ban the otherwise legal ownership and sales of firearms in San Francisco, Michel said Pink Pistols played a critical role in the gun owner rights fight.

"They have a great deal of legitimacy because they recognize they are at great odds of becoming victims because of their sexual preference ... I think people will understand that they should not be deprived of their rights," he told the San Francisco Chronicle.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Chicago gun laws continue to fail.

http://www.bet.com/news/national/2013/0 ... e-day.html
The level of gun violence in Chicago, which has caused shock waves nationally, is continuing with eight people having been shot in the nation’s third largest city in a 24-hour period that ended Friday morning, including one that ended with the death of a 15-year-old boy.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Baltimore, which arguably has the most restrictive gun laws in America, bears witness to the failure of gun control.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/06/3 ... ns-killed/
The surge in violence continues in Baltimore as the police report more shootings, the last of which happened late Saturday in Northeast Baltimore.

Christie Ileto has more on how clergy and lawmakers are trying to calm anxious residents.

At least 40 shootings have happened in the last 10 days and 16 of them were deadly.

Police say two people were shot on Saturday. Neither of the shootings was fatal.

Shortly after 8:30 p.m. Saturday, police say a man was shot in the back while standing on Edison Highway in northeast Baltimore. He was taken by ambulance to a hospital.

Earlier Saturday afternoon, a man was shot in the leg in west Baltimore.

Police have stepped up their presence on the streets in response to a surge in violence that included 11 fatal shootings in the span of a week. Commissioner Anthony Batts has said nearly three times the usual number of officers would be on the streets this weekend.

City clergy are now asking residents to step up and end this violent trend.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Chicago gun laws just keep failing.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130708 ... ay-weekend
Since Wednesday afternoon, 11 people have been killed and at least 61 wounded in violence around the city.

Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Zack Morris
Posts: 2837
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:52 am
Location: Bayside High School

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Zack Morris »

Most inner city gun violence involves people who know each other, with the unfortunate side effect of bystanders being killed (collateral damage, to borrow a conservative term). The residents of these neighborhoods are already heavily armed, so why aren't crime rates going down? It's not clear how handing out more guns in these neighborhoods -- where anyone who wants a gun for protection can already easily obtain one -- would help. You can't stop a stray bullet with a gun, after all.

Meanwhile, the parts of Chicago where gun restrictions exist, and are largely obeyed, are free of gun violence. Likewise for New York. Amazingly safe place and there are all sorts of whackos and short-tempered folks running around in close proximity here. My train was delayed because someone was threatening people with a broken bottle on another train. Nobody got killed though because Zimmerman can't be hatin' up in here.

Meanwhile, where you live, people in rural communities have to worry about snipers in the woods and roving bands of criminals occupying homes and using them as meth labs or launching pads for home invasions. I feel sorry that your life bears such an uncanny resemblance to The Road but you're always welcome to visit civilization. Come and enjoy the symphony, the opera, a world-class art museum (but avoid the Natural History Museum -- it's not creationist-friendly!), or a nice jazz lounge. Have a superb dinner. Lighten your load and leave that arsenal at home for an evening. Best of all, SWAT raids are virtually unheard of in Manhattan!
Demon of Undoing
Posts: 1764
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:14 pm

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Demon of Undoing »

That's the difference between you and others, ZM. If someone was threatening people in an enclosed train with a fistfull of broken glass, someone quite possibly should have been killed. The idea that some nut might get to leisurely slice and dice a potential train car full of people, people who would have nothing more to defend themselves with than panic, is appalling. I heard it straight out of the mouth of an NYC cop- I wouldn't live here if I wasn't allowed to carry, he said. He was a man that knew his city. The thought of having a loved one on that train, and there being virtually no chance of someone stopping it because they're law- abiding and unarmed, negates all the museums and dinners in the world.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Zack Morris wrote:Most inner city gun violence involves people who know each other,
citation needed
with the unfortunate side effect of bystanders being killed
citation needed
(collateral damage, to borrow a conservative term).
I think Obama calls it Kinetic Action.
The residents of these neighborhoods are already heavily armed,
citation needed
so why aren't crime rates going down? It's not clear how handing out more guns in these neighborhoods -- where anyone who wants a gun for protection can already easily obtain one -- would help.
Zack Morris, I invite you to spend all the time you can in gang neighborhoods, unarmed. Nothing would make me happier than if you were to do that. Please go in there after dark.
You can't stop a stray bullet with a gun, after all.
You're more likely to be killed by ______ than a stray bullet Zack Morris.
Meanwhile, the parts of Chicago where gun restrictions exist, and are largely obeyed, are free of gun violence. Likewise for New York. Amazingly safe place and there are all sorts of whackos and short-tempered folks running around in close proximity here.
Wonder why then 9 of the 10 lowest murder states have no gun laws whatsoever. I think I'll stay in the low murder no gun law states, thanks.
My train was delayed because someone was threatening people with a broken bottle on another train. Nobody got killed though because Zimmerman can't be hatin' up in here.
The amount of stupid in the above cannot be measured by the mathematics available to mankind.
Meanwhile, where you live, people in rural communities have to worry about snipers in the woods and roving bands of criminals occupying homes and using them as meth labs or launching pads for home invasions.
Zack Morris, are minorities even people to you? Do you view them as people, or as some sort of subhuman?
I feel sorry that your life bears such an uncanny resemblance to The Road but you're always welcome to visit civilization. Come and enjoy the symphony, the opera, a world-class art museum (but avoid the Natural History Museum -- it's not creationist-friendly!), or a nice jazz lounge. Have a superb dinner.
It's amazing how little Manhattan has to offer considering all the hype. This is all you could come up with?
Lighten your load and leave that arsenal at home for an evening. Best of all, SWAT raids are virtually unheard of in Manhattan!
Seeing how the SWAT are my buddies and you have to deal with stop and frisk I'll stay where I am.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Looks like Chicago gun laws fail also. Fail badly. The natural result of leftism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/gov ... al-of-u-s/
The city of Chicago registered more homicides than any city in the nation in 2012, surpassing even New York — despite the fact that the Second City has only one third as many residents as the Big Apple.

In new crime statistics released Monday, the Federal Bureau of Investigation reported 500 murders in Chicago in 2012, up sharply from the 431 recorded in 2011. New York reported 419 murders last year, compared with 515 in 2011.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27574
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Typhoon »

The lack of a civil society.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I wonder why these liberal Democrat cities lack civil societies. I wonder.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27574
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:I wonder why these liberal Democrat cities lack civil societies. I wonder.
We finally have an answer to the question: What happens if two people Stand Their Ground with each other?
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I think colonel you clearly don't understand stand your ground laws.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Juggernaut Nihilism
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

It's not that gun laws cause more or less crime, statistically speaking. I don't care about that. Violent crime is a reality, and citizens ought to have a right to protect themselves to the utmost.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: NYC gun laws fail

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Media reporting "assault weapons" used in Chicago today but they are already banned countywide and City wide. These laws don't work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_i ... e#Illinois
Censorship isn't necessary
Post Reply