How prosperity destroyed Arabic culture

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Oil, natural resources, or any other "free" money, is a "kiss of death" for development of a Nation


How (Oil) prosperity destroyed Arabic culture



Interesting, and, accurate, article





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[Ibrahim]

Kind of a BS argument considering that the majority of Arabs live in poverty, and the usual critique leveled at Arabs is that they are too traditional.

Oil sheikhs are gross, but no grosser than trust fund cokeheads in NYC, Eurotrash in Monaco, or corrupt bureaucrats playing baccarat in Macau. They are a cultural hangnail, they don't drive the culture itself.

Corrupt and kleptocratic leadership is a different matter, but hardly unique to the Arab world or even culturally distinct. In the latter half of the 20th century we saw it everywhere. South America, Middle East, Central, South, East, and Southeast Asia, Eastern and Western Europe, and Africa.

[Enki]

Listening to the sheer contempt that western business consultants hold for their oil money rich Arab clients is something that has made me laugh on more than one occasion.

[Parodite]

Read the article. Yea, if the Islamic world could only recover and reassert itself, shake off Western destructive forces and their puppet dictatorial regimes and revive Ummah Paradise of the past! Hurt Islamic pride needs and outlet... let him whine and blame in bipolar fashion, it's a basic human right.

I'm just not sure how that would look like... the Ummah Today, since the general trend is that religion is relegated to the private spheres of individuals and spirited clubhouses where they are allowed to gather in religion-state separated democracies as co-existing subcultures in a common society. Ummah in your head only?

Usually when God is put on the throne of the King he also wants to call the shots, not just hover around in and between peoples brain cells as a pleasant socio-poetic experience. The question is if Allah is allowed to sit at the feet of the King and be happy with Silver or even just Bronze. Or will He start to compete again and Go for Gold? Time will tell I guess.

The bad news is that Grabbing the Gold is part of all three Abramic narratives. In various versions. Jesus in the end will be victorious, his enemies slain and destroyed in the fire (Revelations) thusly restoring the Christian Ummah. Jews entertain various dreams in which they will not only survive but will be the ones leading humanity to the waters of Ummah Bliss. An interesting Judeo-Christian Ummah ReMix was mentioned and promoted by Spengler and his Rosenzweig "The Star of Redemption" (I read it with great torture to my brain cells) where Jews are the spearhead followed by their friends, the Jew- and Israel friendly army of Christians notably from America to bring the world to Ummah Paradise. Islamic Ummah is a bitofa bad dream obstructing and delaying that project of course... And vice-versa.

"Beware the dreamers of the day for they will enact their dreams with open eyes"
~anon

[Ibrahim]

Read the article. Yea, if the Islamic world could only recover and reassert itself, shake off Western destructive forces and their puppet dictatorial regimes and revive Ummah Paradise of the past! Hurt Islamic pride needs and outlet... let him whine and blame in bipolar fashion, it's a basic human right.

I'm just not sure how that would look like... the Ummah Today, since the general trend is that religion is relegated to the private spheres of individuals and spirited clubhouses where they are allowed to gather in religion-state separated democracies as co-existing subcultures in a common society. Ummah in your head only?

Usually when God is put on the throne of the King he also wants to call the shots, not just hover around in and between peoples brain cells as a pleasant socio-poetic experience. The question is if Allah is allowed to sit at the feet of the King and be happy with Silver or even just Bronze. Or will He start to compete again and Go for Gold? Time will tell I guess.

The bad news is that Grabbing the Gold is part of all three Abramic narratives. In various versions. Jesus in the end will be victorious, his enemies slain and destroyed in the fire (Revelations) thusly restoring the Christian Ummah. Jews entertain various dreams in which they will not only survive but will be the ones leading humanity to the waters of Ummah Bliss. An interesting Judeo-Christian Ummah ReMix was mentioned and promoted by Spengler and his Rosenzweig "The Star of Redemption" (I read it with great torture to my brain cells) where Jews are the spearhead followed by their friends, the Jew- and Israel friendly army of Christians notably from America to bring the world to Ummah Paradise. Islamic Ummah is a bitofa bad dream obstructing and delaying that project of course... And vice-versa.

"Beware the dreamers of the day for they will enact their dreams with open eyes"
~anon

Complete incoherent nonsense in defense of a theologically and historically unsupportable premise.

[noddy]

corrupt and kleptocratic leadership is the problem, id agree with that.

of course this triggers much meta analysis about the cultures that support such behaviour but one might suggest the modern west isnt looking as good as it once did in that regard.

how much of the printed trillions is making it out to the punters again ?

[Ibrahim]

corrupt and kleptocratic leadership is the problem, id agree with that.

Its the political and economic problem, most obviously. I don't see that its either caused by, or causes changes to, the traditional culture. Changes, such as they are, are caused by modernization and by increased contact with other countries, as everywhere.

of course this triggers much meta analysis about the cultures that support such behaviour but one might suggest the modern west isnt looking as good as it once did in that regard.

how much of the printed trillions is making it out to the punters again ?

Foreign influence is always part of the problem, in the Middle East, South America, Africa, etc. etc.

[noddy]

Foreign influence is always part of the problem, in the Middle East, South America, Africa, etc. etc.

i was getting at the klepto bit - cultures that indulge the bigman taking all the goodies versus cultures that keep the bigman honest and the role is more of a responsibility than an indulgence.

as for the foreign influence, a strong culture doesnt suffer from it and in this modern world being robust against it is an absolute prerequisite - we can all shed a tear for those which cant deal with it but they are dead man walking.

[Ibrahim]

Foreign influence is always part of the problem, in the Middle East, South America, Africa, etc. etc.

i was getting at the klepto bit - cultures that indulge the bigman taking all the goodies versus cultures that keep the bigman honest and the role is more of a responsibility than an indulgence.

This is true. The first generation of post-colonial leaders were all too enthusiastic about perpetuating the colonial model, except with the money going right into a Swiss account in their own name rather than to the king of Belgium.

as for the foreign influence, a strong culture doesnt suffer from it and in this modern world being robust against it is an absolute prerequisite - we can all shed a tear for those which cant deal with it but they are dead man walking.

E.g. US culture hasn't suffered from its past decade+ dealing with the Arab world? I can hardly recognize the US anymore. It like the prison guard and the prisoner, they're both in prison and they are both changed by it.

As for the Spenglerian "not worth a masters thesis" genocidal cultural chauvisnism, while it is true that some cultures will disappear, I don't think Arabs are set to be one of them. Cultures are always in flux, but nobody is ever going to say "is that an Arab or a Welshman, I can't tell."

[noddy]

E.g. US culture hasn't suffered from its past decade+ dealing with the Arab world? I can hardly recognize the US anymore. It like the prison guard and the prisoner, they're both in prison and they are both changed by it.

As for the Spenglerian "not worth a masters thesis" genocidal cultural chauvisnism, while it is true that some cultures will disappear, I don't think Arabs are set to be one of them. Cultures are always in flux, but nobody is ever going to say "is that an Arab or a Welshman, I can't tell."

i most certainly dont take my viewpoint to the spengler fixation on arabs and nor do i think "arabs" are going to disappear anymore than "euros"

particular sub cultures and tribes within the "arab" label are zombies waiting to happen but thats not unique to arabs thats just part of the radical globalisation and modernisation changes we are part of - some may exist as isolated oddities like the leftover hunter gatheres in the post farming world but even that is less likely than previously due to population pressures.

my point is purely that "outsider meddling" isnt a valid angle because its garunteed in our highly interconnected modern world, so much so one could almost consider it compulsory unless you take things to north korean extremes.

which isnt to say it doesnt happen or doesnt have bad effects when it does.

as for the arab/us relationship - hard to tell whats sympton and whats cause.

[Ibrahim]

E.g. US culture hasn't suffered from its past decade+ dealing with the Arab world? I can hardly recognize the US anymore. It like the prison guard and the prisoner, they're both in prison and they are both changed by it.

As for the Spenglerian "not worth a masters thesis" genocidal cultural chauvisnism, while it is true that some cultures will disappear, I don't think Arabs are set to be one of them. Cultures are always in flux, but nobody is ever going to say "is that an Arab or a Welshman, I can't tell."

i most certainly dont take my viewpoint to the spengler fixation on arabs and nor do i think "arabs" are going to disappear anymore than "euros"

Right, I was just speaking to the school of thought generally. Not implying that you were a proponent of it.

particular sub cultures and tribes within the "arab" label are zombies waiting to happen but thats not unique to arabs thats just part of the radical globalisation and modernisation changes we are part of - some may exist as isolated oddities like the leftover hunter gatheres in the post farming world but even that is less likely than previously due to population pressures.

my point is purely that "outsider meddling" isnt a valid angle because its garunteed in our highly interconnected modern world, so much so one could almost consider it compulsory unless you take things to north korean extremes.

which isnt to say it doesnt happen or doesnt have bad effects when it does.

as for the arab/us relationship - hard to tell whats sympton and whats cause.

Well there is room in between hermit kingdoms and the kind of aggressive foreign meddling that you see in the modern histories of e.g. Egypt. Other Arab states, for example Saudi Arabia, seem to be able to do whatever they like at home, yet navigate the international community rather skillfully to get exactly what they want. Then again there is Lebanon, which was a Western-looking and cosmopolitan society that got swept away by events both within and beyond its control.

All I would insist on is that the culture is still there regardless of whether or not you've oppression, anarchy, or steady progress towards whatever. The culture is as suited as any to cope with the modern world, the politics are where problems arise.

[noddy]

rural conservatives crying at the meddling of outside modern influences, im sure ive seen you take a few different sides on that split

i realise many say the "great game" stuff is overblown but their is no escaping that the middle east is ermm, in the middle of all the big players - its much easier to get lower level meddling when your on the edge and irrelevant - curse geography maybe.

[Ibrahim]

rural conservatives crying at the meddling of outside modern influences, im sure ive seen you take a few different sides on that split

I was talking about urban Arab culture, which technically goes back to the bronze-age coastal states. Bedouin go back even further and seems pretty resilient as well, rural Americans hording guns and rusted-out engine blocks in their front yard are probably a good analogy to the Bedouin.

i realise many say the "great game" stuff is overblown but their is no escaping that the middle east is ermm, in the middle of all the big players - its much easier to get lower level meddling when your on the edge and irrelevant - curse geography maybe.

The geography and the oil have created as many winners as losers. Its a crap shoot.

[monster_gardener]

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Oil, natural resources, or any other "free" money, is a "kiss of death" for development of a Nation


How (Oil) prosperity destroyed Arabic culture



Interesting, and, accurate, article





.

Are Arabs As Acute As Alaskans?


Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari......

Oil, natural resources, or any other "free" money, is a "kiss of death" for development of a Nation

Not if you are as acutely wise as Alaskans are...........

They were smart enough to make sure that the INDIVIDUAL Alaskans got at least some of the oil money into the INDIVIDUAL pockets and that it didn't all go to power and fame hungry greedy politicos who want to build things that have their names on them.......

Maybe the Arabs should consult with Marcus and Yukon Cornelius

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

[monster_gardener]

rural conservatives crying at the meddling of outside modern influences, im sure ive seen you take a few different sides on that split

I was talking about urban Arab culture, which technically goes back to the bronze-age coastal states. Bedouin go back even further and seems pretty resilient as well, rural Americans hording guns and rusted-out engine blocks in their front yard are probably a good analogy to the Bedouin.

i realise many say the "great game" stuff is overblown but their is no escaping that the middle east is ermm, in the middle of all the big players - its much easier to get lower level meddling when your on the edge and irrelevant - curse geography maybe.

The geography and the oil have created as many winners as losers. Its a crap shoot.

Thank Your VERY Much for your post, Ibrahim.

Bedouin go back even further and seems pretty resilient as well, rural Americans hording guns and rusted-out engine blocks in their front yard are probably a good analogy to the Bedouin.

That may be one of the kindest things you have ever said about Uz Down in the Black Gang Americans...........

Thank you....... I think........

Its a crap shoot.

Nope......

See the previous post about Alaskans vs. Arabs......

One of the wisest things Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkeys can do is realize and remember NOT to trust themselves if they gain power......

For this reason, The Alaskans are a bit wiser for the moment than the average............

Many citizens[who?] also believed that the legislature too quickly and too inefficiently spent the $900 million bonus the state got in 1969 after leasing out the oil fields[citation needed]. This belief spurred a desire to put some oil revenues out of direct political control.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

[Apollonius]

Listening to the sheer contempt that western business consultants hold for their oil money rich Arab clients is something that has made me laugh on more than one occasion.

Do you know many people who have worked in the Middle East? Quite a few friends of mine have worked in the Gulf, Saudi, and Oman. They are mostly technicians of some sort, or else medical personnel.



Arabs literally look down their noses at these contract workers, sneering in undisguised contempt. Sometimes they will cross the street just to spit on the sidewalk you're strolling on.

Indian workers are treated much worse. I personally know of several cases where the abuse reaches levels that would not be tolerated by Muslims, or probably anyone else, living in the West.

[Ibrahim]

Saudi abuses of migrant workers (from Yemen, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, and the Arab states generally) is legendary, to the point that the Saudi military is specifically trained and armed (by the US) to suppress worker uprisings.

Can you infer much about "Arab culture" from the way rich Saudis behave? Doesn't seem very logical to me, but to each their own.

[Enki]

Do you know many people who have worked in the Middle East? Quite a few friends of mine have worked in the Gulf, Saudi, and Oman. They are mostly technicians of some sort, or else medical personnel.

There is this one prick on another message board who goes there to pseudonymously dish on his Arab oil money clients. He's pretty hysterical but a total asshole.

Arabs literally look down their noses at these contract workers, sneering in undisguised contempt. Sometimes they will cross the street just to spit on the sidewalk you're strolling on.

Indian workers are treated much worse. I personally know of several cases where the abuse reaches levels that would not be tolerated by Muslims, or probably anyone else, living in the West.

I doubt they treat those trying to help them do business deals worth millions of dollars with the same level of contempt.

[monster_gardener]

Saudi abuses of migrant workers (from Yemen, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, and the Arab states generally) is legendary, to the point that the Saudi military is specifically trained and armed (by the US) to suppress worker uprisings.

Can you infer much about "Arab culture" from the way rich Saudis behave? Doesn't seem very logical to me, but to each their own.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

1. Apollonius did NOT say "rich Saudis".

The Saudi & Omani Arabs acting abusively may have been poor or middle class as well as rich.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ja ... inequality

Doesn't seem very logical to me, but to each their own

2. IIRC, Ibrahim, you are known to infer things about American and other cultures by the way members of the culture allegedly behave.....

[Ibrahim]

I doubt they treat those trying to help them do business deals worth millions of dollars with the same level of contempt.

For more along these lines compare Wall Street types interacting with one another vs. their treatment of waitresses/protesters/the rest of humanity.

Once again, some people are viewing economic social issues through the lens of ethnicity.

[Marcus]

—from The Seven Pillars of Wisdom . . chapter IV:

The first great rush round the Mediterranean had shown the world the power of an excited Arab for a short spell of intense physical activity; but when the effort burned out the lack of endurance and routine in the Semitic mind became as evident. The provinces they had overrun they neglected, out of sheer distaste of system, and had to seek the help of their conquered subjects, or of more vigorous foreigners, to administer their ill-knit and inchoate empires. So, early in the Middle Ages, the Turks found a footing in the Arab States, first as servants, then as helpers, and then as a parasite growth which choked the life out of the old body politic. The last phase was of enmity, when the Hulagus or Timurs sated their blood lust, burning and destroying everything which irked them with a pretension of superiority.

Arab civilizations had been of an abstract nature, moral and intellectual rather than applied; and their lack of public spirit made their excellent private qualities futile. They were fortunate in their epoch: Europe had fallen barbarous; and the memory of Greek and Latin learning was fading from men's minds. By contrast the imitative exercise of the Arabs seemed cultured, their mental activity progressive, their state prosperous. They had performed real service in preserving something of a classical past for a mediaeval future.

With the coming of the Turks this happiness became a dream. By stages the Semites of Asia passed under their yoke, and found it a slow death. Their goods were stripped from them; and their spirits shrivelled in the numbing breath of a military Government. Turkish rule was gendarme rule, and Turkish political theory as crude as its practice. The Turks taught the Arabs that the interests of a sect were higher than those of patriotism: that the petty concerns of the province were more than nationality. They led them by subtle dissensions to distrust one another. . .

[Ibrahim]

Again, people need to bear in mind that Lawrence* was a British military officer during the colonial era, was raised in Edwardian England, and was interacting chiefly with desert Bedouin. His views are collectively racist and not appreciably different from those of the British colonial class as a whole, and his personal experience was confined to a very specific subset at a specific time. The corpus of British colonial literature provides many many racist passages addressed to every non-European peoples that they came into contact with, and just this week I was reading about the Edward VIII referring to the Emperor of Japan as a "monkey in a suit" in 1934. Churchill's reams of racism are old news. The governors general of India, the trade legations in China, and so on, and so on. Its the original pseudo-scientific white supremacism. There is no end to this sewer, quote it at your peril.



*Love the movie though.

[Marcus]

. . His views are collectively racist . . British colonial literature provides many many racist passages . . Churchill's reams of racism are old news. . . There is no end to this sewer, quote it at your peril. . .

You are soooooo predictable . . peril? What peril? More of your bigoted rants?

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I've read this twice now, and I just keep coming back to the "prosperity relative to what?" question. I see more a call for a new Arab mythical narrative. I just don't see it Azari, no matter how much peace and "prosperity" it could bring.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Once again, some people are viewing economic social issues through the lens of ethnicity.

You are such a Marxist.