Evolution

[noddy]

finally though, after all these years a penny has dropped on why this argument has always seemed so odd and pointless.

the new atheist position, the aggressive materialist one, is a reactionary position to an absurd question, all idiocy follows from that.

its like satanism, only makes sense in the context of robust christianity, the moment you lose that context and the binary question of belief in that context, it disappears into nothing and makes no sense.

so, no - this is not an argument between materialism and god, that position is a false binary position created in the evangelical argument of taking a stance on if you believe or dont believe.

in my world, non believers dont even accept the question, so that answer is always gibberish.

we dont know about infinity, we dont know about life after death, we dont know about the beginning?creation? of the universe, their is no position to take, all positions are intellectually lacking in any coherent platform.

evolution is a cute theory based on what we do know, it might not be much, its full of flaws, but its all we got, the rest arent even in the ballpark and playing the same game.

[Parodite]

The whole point of faith/belief seems to me that it concerns itself with unknowns; known- and unknown unknowns. I don't think that when more is known scientifically, the amount of unknown is proportionally shrinking. So far every scientific answer begs for more interesting questions. I would baptise God being The Infinitely Unknown. The Forever Receding Event Horizon. To have some faith in the infinite unknown seems a good thing though; we don't know the bottom-line anyways so there is a degree of freedom. With or without better understood evolution-creation, which is irrelevant.

[noddy]

The whole point of faith/belief seems to me that it concerns itself with unknowns; known- and unknown unknowns. I don't think that when more is known scientifically, the amount of unknown is proportionally shrinking. So far every scientific answer begs for more interesting questions. I would baptise God being The Infinitely Unknown. The Forever Receding Event Horizon. To have some faith in the infinite unknown seems a good thing though; we don't know the bottom-line anyways so there is a degree of freedom. With or without better understood evolution-creation, which is irrelevant.

yeh, thats a better way of putting it.

the turtles havent got anywhere, their is no danger to the infinite.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Faith is based on the liminal realisation that our concept of reality is illusory. Because our consciousness is embodied, it has a point of view and that's a curse as far as the acquisition of absolute truth is concerned. Enlightened physicalism is the current state of ontological monism we associate with science..... and that may crumble soon....'>........

[Mr. Perfect]

The whole point of faith/belief seems to me that it concerns itself with unknowns; known- and unknown unknowns. I don't think that when more is known scientifically, the amount of unknown is proportionally shrinking. So far every scientific answer begs for more interesting questions. I would baptise God being The Infinitely Unknown. The Forever Receding Event Horizon. To have some faith in the infinite unknown seems a good thing though; we don't know the bottom-line anyways so there is a degree of freedom. With or without better understood evolution-creation, which is irrelevant.

"Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.

However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

"Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.

However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.

nMKziOGkQTw

[noddy]

you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.

i say it would be full steam ahead on progressive emotional humanism, team traditional christian isnt even on the radar.

evolution would be an irrelevant side piece.

[Simple Minded]

While pointless, that's what makes the discussion fun. Much like looking at cloud formations.

Humans can't perceive infinity.
Imagine an infinite inkblot!
What does it look like to you?

How do I step outside my selfish human perception? With my imagination!

[Simple Minded]

you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.

It would be tribalism writ large. Until, of course, everyone got on the same page..... of the same Holy Book.

As log as the conversation is with words, rather than conversion via sword, no harm, no foul.

Examine observations as they come in and modify the overall theory to accommodate the new observations seems more likely to be peaceful. Leave your pride at the door please.

[Mr. Perfect]

you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.

i say it would be full steam ahead on progressive emotional humanism, team traditional christian isnt even on the radar.

evolution would be an irrelevant side piece.

It's not mutually exclusive, Christians invented science and discovered most of it.

A return to morality would benefit everyone.

Christianity is the largest world religion.

[Mr. Perfect]

"Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.

However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.

nMKziOGkQTw

Also the basis for hoarding and having too many tabs open.

However, it's too kind. The secular left is intent on destroying the human race itself, there is no reason to beat around the Bush. The Bible said to multiply and replenish the Earth, and the secular left again is doing the opposite.

In their narrative Humans are at odd with nature itself, must stop breathing, must stop breeding, and they are successful with this in the West for some time now. Our only hope is to segment them, let them die off and we can start again with a more human population.

gn9hZIS54aI

The Democrats are tearing the fences down in a blind rage, questioning nothing. Which then goes into self destruction and the roots of that. The roots of that are Satan, not the pentagram one but the actual one. Satan above all else wishes humanity would destroy itself.

[Mr. Perfect]

noddy did your parents go to Church?

[Mr. Perfect]

you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.

It would be tribalism writ large. Until, of course, everyone got on the same page..... of the same Holy Book.

As log as the conversation is with words, rather than conversion via sword, no harm, no foul.

There are fouls a plenty. You guys are looking in the wrong direction.

VlxzD7PTCa8

[noddy]

noddy did your parents go to Church?

most of my family are religious, spent my entire childhood in religious schools, done all the training.

catholic, protestant and evangelical, spent quality time in all of em, years of bible training classes.

all i can gather is some people use their moral structures to come up with reasons to be decent others come up with excuses to be horrid.

ive not noticed particularly that any one religion or secular philosophy has a monopoly on either.

[noddy]

"Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.

However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.

nMKziOGkQTw

good point - its important to remember why we started on a project of working with material evidence and excluding all the faith based and philosophy based evidence.

cant get two people from the same religion to agree on the details, it gets absurd fast when you start bringing in multicultural viewpoints.

[noddy]

you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.

i say it would be full steam ahead on progressive emotional humanism, team traditional christian isnt even on the radar.

evolution would be an irrelevant side piece.

It's not mutually exclusive, Christians invented science and discovered most of it.

A return to morality would benefit everyone.

Christianity is the largest world religion.

only you could believe they will return to cowboy christianity - they hate that with a passion.

they will return to progressive veganist humanism as the basis for all morality.

best off wishing for materialism, it will leave you cracks to exist in.

[noddy]

you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.

It would be tribalism writ large. Until, of course, everyone got on the same page..... of the same Holy Book.

As log as the conversation is with words, rather than conversion via sword, no harm, no foul.

There are fouls a plenty. You guys are looking in the wrong direction.

VlxzD7PTCa8

need to stand on one leg, with one eye closed and put your fingers in your ears to make this narrative work.

[noddy]

so it opens the question of panspermia or other such things.

Science of the gaps

exactly.

this is only a problem for some flavours of religion, a god that recedes - with science its the ho hum status quo, every answer triggers another question.

I don't know about that.

poorly expressed on a grumpy day.


the gaps are builtin for science, philosophical concerns with those gaps is a different subject all together.

[Simple Minded]

noddy did your parents go to Church?

most of my family are religious, spent my entire childhood in religious schools, done all the training.

catholic, protestant and evangelical, spent quality time in all of em, years of bible training classes.

all i can gather is some people use their moral structures to come up with reasons to be decent others come up with excuses to be horrid.

ive not noticed particularly that any one religion or secular philosophy has a monopoly on either.

well said. parallels my own experience. "Religion" (capital R business) seems to make some people worse, "religion" (lower case r personal) can be a discipline some individuals use to become better people. proselytizers tend to belong to the former group more than the later.

"Jesus" is a positive influence for some, and a license to be as nasty as they want for others.

Walk down a street with 10 households practicing 5 different religions, and the people who will tell you that their religion is the only valid religion are often the most obnoxious, disagreeable, and hatful people of the bunch.

Especially when the only reason they can give you for belonging to that religion is that they were born into a family that practices that religion.

[Mr. Perfect]

need to stand on one leg, with one eye closed and put your fingers in your ears to make this narrative work.

How so.

[Mr. Perfect]

well said. parallels my own experience. "Religion" (capital R business) seems to make some people worse, "religion" (lower case r personal) can be a discipline some individuals use to become better people. proselytizers tend to belong to the former group more than the later.

"Jesus" is a positive influence for some, and a license to be as nasty as they want for others.

Walk down a street with 10 households practicing 5 different religions, and the people who will tell you that their religion is the only valid religion are often the most obnoxious, disagreeable, and hatful people of the bunch.

Especially when the only reason they can give you for belonging to that religion is that they were born into a family that practices that religion.

Quite a bit of projection in there.

[Mr. Perfect]

only you could believe they will return to cowboy christianity - they hate that with a passion.

they will return to progressive veganist humanism as the basis for all morality.

Who is they.

best off wishing for materialism, it will leave you cracks to exist in.

How so.

[noddy]

only you could believe they will return to cowboy christianity - they hate that with a passion.

they will return to progressive veganist humanism as the basis for all morality.

Who is they.

best off wishing for materialism, it will leave you cracks to exist in.

How so.

they being the new progressives - which you think of as the problems of secular, and i think of as an evangelical cult

to my mind they they are the next step of protestantism - not only have the discarded the priesthood and act as their own popes, they are also their own jesus - directly comparing and competing with traditional christianity as the moral centre of society.

its completely different to the atheism in my country, because the dominant christianity in my country was quieter, so its all much more toned down.

secular materialism is neither here nor there on all that - these things happen within the context of the local culture and what is being reacted too.

the cracks are capitalism.

[noddy]

need to stand on one leg, with one eye closed and put your fingers in your ears to make this narrative work.

How so.

trying to pin down the problem of millions of disenfranchised blacks and young whites on modern politics without using your other eyeball to look at how previous politics might have created this issue.

ill give you a clue - my country is massively secular in comparison to yours and we dont have any of this going on.

[Mr. Perfect]

trying to pin down the problem of millions of disenfranchised blacks and young whites on modern politics without using your other eyeball to look at how previous politics might have created this issue.

We don't have any disenfranchised people in America. Young whites and non whites own the media culture and are pandered to constantly. During the riots corporations gave them permission to sack their property.

ill give you a clue - my country is massively secular in comparison to yours and we dont have any of this going on.

I don't know what that has to do with anything.

Looks like you found a large jug of kool aid.