Pope Francis goes Full Monty

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Signaling a dramatic shift in Vatican tone, Pope Francis said the Catholic Church had become obsessed by "small-minded rules" about how to be faithful

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"We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel," . .

"The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules," Francis said.

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Francis caving in (to the homosexual's MODERNITY) .. Ayatollahs laughing

Now, "Russian Orthodox Church" (Greek Orthodox Church) is the real AND only game in town to save west from total moral decay


Putin is the only hope, G_D save Validimiro





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[NapLajoieonSteroids]

What is unbelievable is I don't think anyone has actually read the Jesuit article where the quotes come from. I know some people are criticizing the pope for speaking too loosely and generally to a media that neither is sympathetic or is really concerned about theological minutiae.

But it is like the Benedict condom comments from a few years ago- I don't believe many people running with the story went further than the soundbite where suddenly Benedict (of all people) made condoms okay.

The pope's point, and in a very Jesuit way (which makes sense when you got a Jesuit as pope) was that believe in Christ should come first and pastoral care comes after that.

He says that and suddenly the headlines are "Pope Not Catholic."

The only thing worse than the Pope coverage this week was the stuff about the DC shooter and his Buddhism. That was some real cringeworthy stuff.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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The pope's point, and in a very Jesuit way (which makes sense when you got a Jesuit as pope) was that believe in Christ should come first and pastoral care comes after that.

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Admittedly, know not much about theology of Christianity or Islam nor Judaism

but

what is the believe in Christ ? ? ? ? and, what would it mean in today's world ? ? ?

and

Respectfully, NLS

IMVHO, all has remained from those 3 religions last few 100 yrs, is, RITUALISM .. no philosophical dept left in them in today's world

In that sense, pastoral care comes first, believe in Christ after that (whatever is meant by that).



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[NapLajoieonSteroids]

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The pope's point, and in a very Jesuit way (which makes sense when you got a Jesuit as pope) was that believe in Christ should come first and pastoral care comes after that.

.

Admittedly, know not much about theology of Christianity or Islam nor Judaism

but

what is the believe in Christ ? ? ? ? and, what would it mean in today's world ? ? ?

and

Respectfully, NLS

IMVHO, all has remained from those 3 religions last few 100 yrs, is, RITUALISM .. no philosophical dept left in them in today's world

In that sense, pastoral care comes first, believe in Christ after that (whatever is meant by that).



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The Oratorian Lucien Laberthonniere said it best about a century ago:

"The triumph of the Church in society? That would be excellent. But then, it is necessary to examine by what means our religion permits us to pursue it. Moreover, it has not been promised us. And then, it is not, perhaps, the most pressing of our tasks... Her power does not consist in giving orders, to which external obedience is required, backed up by threats or favors. Her power is to raise souls to the life above. It is to give birth to and to cultivate in consciences the supernaturalizing obligation to live for God and for others, through Christ, and to pass through temporal defeats to a triumph that is timeless. 'Do not indulge in childish dreams, when you have in your grasp eternal realities that invite you. Understand, all you who would triumph and reign on earth – et nunc reges intelligite erudimini qui judicatis terram."

I think this is the approach the current Pontiff is getting at, and it either isn't well received by the reactionaries or it isn't understood by the progressives [for lack of better generalities of the parties receiving the message.]

However, your point about ritualism is well received in many respects. I have heard it said, by other Catholics mind you, that the threat of the Modernist heresy was overblown and swept away too much of the inner mysticism necessary to keep a fertile prayer life. Both of the general parties mentioned above can be said to hold only a paucity of that mysticism that sustained and fed the Desert saints; the English mystics; the passionate few.

I imagine the 20th century could be looked upon as an age where passion was feared, shunned and compartmentalized moreso than other known eras.

[Marcus]

I dunno . . it will be interesting to see where this goes, but I suspect ALI is more right than wrong.

The Christian gospel is not about helping the poor, inclusiveness, or any other such stuff . . the Christian gospel is about sin and the forgiveness of sin. Nor does it matter one whit what Roman Catholic dogma says officially . . perception is reality. If the laity perceives the Roman denomination going soft on "sin," they will increasingly defect to Orthodoxy and conservative Protestantism.

Time will tell . .

[Ibrahim]

If the laity perceives the Roman denomination going soft on "sin," they will increasingly defect to Orthodoxy and conservative Protestantism.

You'd have to be a pretty awful person to do that based on this interview. "Help the poor? @$%& that, I'd rather sit in my house and hate people while focusing only on my own salvation. You know, like Jesus did."

[Marcus]

Much, much more commentary on the subject here: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... /8085502/1

[Enki]

If anyone can demonstrate where in the gospels we were exhorted to focus myopically on one particular subset of sin to the exclusion of all else, I would love to hear it.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Francis is challenging the status quo of the Roman Catholic Church so determinedly and so unexpectedly that Vatican watchers are debating whether this is merely a change of tone, as many had thought at first.
Some now think the pope may be making a deliberate effort to shake up the Vatican governing hierarchy, known as the Curia, and prepare the ground for a more fundamental shift in the direction of the church.



Francis wants to take RCC into a new direction ? ? makes sense

but

dear Francis

Not the "direction" but the "platform" is what will make or brake this thing


Francis has to RE-INVENT Christianity .. the "Old Christianity" was born in Byzantine by Roman emperor Constantin not out
of human love or morality .. it was a political move to counter next door Pomegranates and their Zoroastrianism influence (Mithra-ism takeover of Rome)

Now, other things heart of the matter

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The Christian gospel is not about helping the poor, inclusiveness, or any other such stuff . . the Christian gospel is about sin and the forgiveness of sin. Nor does it matter one whit what Roman Catholic dogma says officially . . perception is reality. If the laity perceives the Roman denomination going soft on "sin," they will increasingly defect to Orthodoxy and conservative Protestantism.

Time will tell . .

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Yes, Marcus, true, Christian gospel is not about helping the poor, inclusiveness, or any other such stuff

but

"helping the poor, inclusiveness, or any other such stuff" is what now (and always) matters .. (abstract) notion we all sinners and Christ paid (or pays) for our sins and things of that nature just to fool 7/8 of world population with empty but noble sounding stuff

Meaning

Francis must change the "platform" to .. morality, justice, right and wrong .. more tangible issues of the world

If not, Francis right, things "will fall like a house of cards" (his and not mine words)


Other branches of Christianity, Greek Orthodox Church (Russian Orthodox Church), or, as Marcus correctly says, Conservative Protestantism already becoming more relevant (Putin sensing where the wind blowing)


This will not be the first time RCC rebooting, but could be the last time


As Marcus says, time will tell ..



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[Alexis]

Yes, Marcus, true, Christian gospel is not about helping the poor, inclusiveness, or any other such stuff

Matthew 25:31-46

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Are you so sure that "the Christian gospel is not about helping the poor", HP, Marcus ?