Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism

[Mr. Perfect]

Atheists, unfortunately, have absolutely no weapon to overcome this. God in the end and not surprisingly has the trump cards.

Seattle Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson espoused about his Christian faith in a recent documentary entitled “The Making of a Champion.”

In the video, Wilson, 24, describes how he found God at the age of 14.

“I had a dream that my dad passed away and that Jesus came into the room and he was basically knocking on my door, saying, ‘Hey, you need to find out more about me,’” Wilson said. “So that Sunday morning I ended up going to church and that’s when I got saved.”.

[Enki]

Those experiences are not transferrable to another person.

One might argue that it is cruel to throw such experiences in the faces of people who have never been approached by the divine spirit in such a manner.

[Mr. Perfect]

Those experiences are not transferrable to another person.

True, no argument there. However they seem to just keep happening.

One might argue that it is cruel to throw such experiences in the faces of people who have never been approached by the divine spirit in such a manner.

Could be. Nobody said life was fair.

[Enki]

True, no argument there. However they seem to just keep happening.

Could be. Nobody said life was fair.

Yeah, but as the King said, "Don't be cruel."

[Mr. Perfect]

The real King said don't hide your light under a bushel, and don't be hatin' (covetous, jealous).

[Enki]

The real King said don't hide your light under a bushel, and don't be hatin' (covetous, jealous).

True, but testimony doesn't have to turn Jesus to the inside of John Malkovich's head when inhabited by Malkovich.

[noddy]

not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.

personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.

is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?

[Enki]

not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.

personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.

is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?

Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.

Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.

[noddy]

not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.

personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.

is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?

Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.

Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.

im mostly (tm) sure i know what i experienced.

[Mr. Perfect]

not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.

Well the point is that atheists seem to think that if they can give rational explanations for the universe then Santa Claus will just fade out. The problem is that one big reason that Santa Claus has a following is that a whole lot of people all on their own think they've "seen" him first hand. Hard to explain that one away. I'd love to watch a convo between Zack Morris and this guy, I know who's going to win.

personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.

is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?

As Simple Minded would say it would be fun to watch.

[noddy]

as i rule i dont really get into the atheist vs theist stuff much and the big reason for that is most of the christians in my family and life have been the very dry protestant flavours that dont have much time for god bothering and anthropomorphised interpretations.

as such, when they use the word "god" and i use the word "reality" its sometimes difficult to seperate the intended meanings and usages.

combine that with the modern "spiritual athiest" and the "cultural christian" and it all gets rather messy indeed.

[Endovelico]

My "epiphany" came when I realized that if God does exist He for sure can't be the half-wit criminally insane entity most religions make Him appear... Creating God to our image doesn't make Him seem very plausible...

[Mr. Perfect]

The problem though is that when you have an experience like this the intellectualizing seen here goes straight out the window and you have to deal with your new reality. Most of these issues become dead settled and you never think about them again, you just think in terms of the God of the Bible or whatever being as real as your own body. And I'm not sure what an atheist does with that.

And these things just keep happening without any central planning.

[Enki]

As the REAL King said, (paraphrased), "Don't be cruel."

[Demon of Undoing]

It's a poo witness. If I get all the personal interactions with Ganesh all together, is anybody going to convert to Hinduism when they read it?

Only appeals to "Jesus is my boyfriend" types.

[Typhoon]

Atheists, unfortunately, have absolutely no weapon to overcome this. God in the end and not surprisingly has the trump cards.

Seattle Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson espoused about his Christian faith in a recent documentary entitled “The Making of a Champion.”

In the video, Wilson, 24, describes how he found God at the age of 14.

“I had a dream that my dad passed away and that Jesus came into the room and he was basically knocking on my door, saying, ‘Hey, you need to find out more about me,’” Wilson said. “So that Sunday morning I ended up going to church and that’s when I got saved.”.

There's a flawed implicit assumption here: that atheists have an obligation to proselytize just as some religions do.

Of course, there are some atheists that take an activist stand against religion, however, most would simply prefer not to be bothered by religious proselytizers and intolerant fanatics.

It's probably a good thing that not everyone bases their actions on their dreams.

If I took action with regards to some of the dreams that I recall, then I would be on the most-wanted list in a number of countries.

Anyways, it will probably take more than dreams to reverse the global trend towards atheism.

[Typhoon]

not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.

personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.

is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?

Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.

Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.

Quite.

[Mr. Perfect]

Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.

Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.

Quite.

Good thing no one is doing that in this thread.

[Mr. Perfect]

There's a flawed implicit assumption here:

No there isn't. There is an explicit assumption in this thread.

that atheists have an obligation to proselytize just as some religions do.

Yet many will go ahead and try to proselytize without any obligation.

Of course, there are some atheists that take an activist stand against religion,

Yup, that's who we're talking about.

however, most would simply prefer not to be bothered by religious proselytizers and intolerant fanatics.

Citation needed.

It's probably a good thing that not everyone bases their actions on their dreams.

If I took action with regards to some of the dreams that I recall, then I would be on the most-wanted list in a number of countries.

Yeah, that really is not the point of this thread, or the subject. The subject being as I noted earlier, atheist proselytes like say Zack Morris or Richard Dawkings who are dead set in convincing people there is no Santa Claus and they seem really dead set to ignore the many, many, many followers of Santa Claus who believe in him based on what we might call first hand experience. I'm still waiting to see them try to convince people they haven't experienced what they experienced. So far I've only seem some stuff on brain scans.

Anyways, it will probably take more than dreams to reverse the global trend towards atheism.

What people dream is really out of the hands of central planners, which speaks to the subject of this thread.

[Endovelico]

Being religious, in the way most people are, is just another sign of how underdeveloped we still are. We moved out of the caves barely 10,000 years ago, invented writing some 5,000 years ago, discovered the Earth wasn't flat - or some Greeks did - some 2,500 years ago, found out that the Earth went around the Sun, and not the other way around, a couple of hundred years ago. We struggle to survive for about seventy years, are only now discovering the essentials of biology and genetics, as well as astronomy and cosmogony. Comparatively, we are now barely discovering how to spell, but we have discovered the wondrous existence of God, and have set down, in detail, everything God is and wants from us, and why... God has communicated with us through the most diverse people who have given us the most disparate doctrines and guidelines, presumably to confuse us... God is a well-known sadist who enjoys confusing us and setting us against each other...

I don't know whether God exists, if He created the universe or whether the universe will end up creating Him. But the nonsense people speak about God is sufficient to make anyone an avowed atheist...

[Simple Minded]

not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.

personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.

is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?

Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.

Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.

im mostly (tm) sure i know what i experienced.

Probably true, but can you slap a label on it and market it?

My brand X gets your soul 30% cleaner than your brand Y!

Send $59.95 or three easy payments of $20 to......

[Typhoon]

Being religious, in the way most people are, is just another sign of how underdeveloped we still are. We moved out of the caves barely 10,000 years ago, invented writing some 5,000 years ago, discovered the Earth wasn't flat - or some Greeks did - some 2,500 years ago, found out that the Earth went around the Sun, and not the other way around, a couple of hundred years ago. We struggle to survive for about seventy years, are only now discovering the essentials of biology and genetics, as well as astronomy and cosmogony. Comparatively, we are now barely discovering how to spell, but we have discovered the wondrous existence of God, and have set down, in detail, everything God is and wants from us, and why... God has communicated with us through the most diverse people who have given us the most disparate doctrines and guidelines, presumably to confuse us... God is a well-known sadist who enjoys confusing us and setting us against each other...

I don't know whether God exists, if He created the universe or whether the universe will end up creating Him. But the nonsense people speak about God is sufficient to make anyone an avowed atheist...

Indeed.

[Typhoon]

There's a flawed implicit assumption here:

No there isn't. There is an explicit assumption in this thread.

that atheists have an obligation to proselytize just as some religions do.

Yet many will go ahead and try to proselytize without any obligation.

Many? Citation please.

Of course, there are some atheists that take an activist stand against religion,

Yup, that's who we're talking about.

however, most would simply prefer not to be bothered by religious proselytizers and intolerant fanatics.

Citation needed.

Japan is probably the most secular industrialized nation.

One's religious beliefs or lack thereof are regarded to be a private matter.

For example, whether one is a atheist/agnostic/bhuddist/shintoist/christian is not a factor in holding a senior political office.

It's probably a good thing that not everyone bases their actions on their dreams.

If I took action with regards to some of the dreams that I recall, then I would be on the most-wanted list in a number of countries.

Yeah, that really is not the point of this thread, or the subject. The subject being as I noted earlier, atheist proselytes like say Zack Morris or Richard Dawkings who are dead set in convincing people there is no Santa Claus and they seem really dead set to ignore the many, many, many followers of Santa Claus who believe in him based on what we might call first hand experience. I'm still waiting to see them try to convince people they haven't experienced what they experienced. So far I've only seem some stuff on brain scans.

On the other hand, R. Dawkins should not be prevented from expressing his views, no matter how unpopular with some.

As for the brain [structural MRI] scan stuff, I would take it with a large grain of salt as it's only a correlation result between brain structure and self-described levels of religiousity for a small sample size.

Anyways, it will probably take more than dreams to reverse the global trend towards atheism.

What people dream is really out of the hands of central planners, which speaks to the subject of this thread.

The perception that the religious are subject to persecution, esp by a cabal of central planners, in the US is nothing if not amusing.

[Mr. Perfect]

Being religious, in the way most people are, is just another sign of how underdeveloped we still are. We moved out of the caves barely 10,000 years ago, invented writing some 5,000 years ago, discovered the Earth wasn't flat - or some Greeks did - some 2,500 years ago, found out that the Earth went around the Sun, and not the other way around, a couple of hundred years ago. We struggle to survive for about seventy years, are only now discovering the essentials of biology and genetics, as well as astronomy and cosmogony. Comparatively, we are now barely discovering how to spell, but we have discovered the wondrous existence of God, and have set down, in detail, everything God is and wants from us, and why... God has communicated with us through the most diverse people who have given us the most disparate doctrines and guidelines, presumably to confuse us... God is a well-known sadist who enjoys confusing us and setting us against each other...

I don't know whether God exists, if He created the universe or whether the universe will end up creating Him. But the nonsense people speak about God is sufficient to make anyone an avowed atheist...

Is there perhaps another thread for this.

The subject of this thread is, for anyone who may be legitimately confused, manifestations of the divine that happen to individual people. Not whether religions are dumb or smart, or what you may think of the bible or whatever, but very specifically a huge portion of human beings believe they have had firsthand interaction with the divine, and however dumb you think religion does not speak to this phenomenon.

In this case a young man without anybody suggesting anything to him believes he had a vision of Jesus, and it changed his life, and my guess is the arguments put forth by endo or anyone else here wouldn't even scratch this persons belief concerning what happened to him.

I hope this clears things up.

[Mr. Perfect]

Many? Citation please.

You first.

Japan is probably the most secular industrialized nation.

One's religious beliefs or lack thereof are regarded to be a private matter.

For example, whether one is a atheist/agnostic/bhuddist/shintoist/christian is not a factor in holding a senior political office.

Ok. What does that have to do with the OP.

On the other hand, R. Dawkins should not be prevented from expressing his views, no matter how unpopular with some.

Is someone suggesting otherwise.

As for the brain [structural MRI] scan stuff, I would take it with a large grain of salt as it's only a correlation result between brain structure and self-described levels of religiousity for a small sample size.

I agree with that.

The perception that the religious are subject to persecution, esp by a cabal of central planners, in the US is nothing if not amusing.

You got to anticipate.