Doing Church without God

[Torchwood]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24766314

A standup comic's gimmick, a "not born again" charismatic, or is he onto something?

A large part of the appeal of religion is the congregation, and social support, not the doctrine.

There are of course existing Humanist societies, but they tend to be dry and without popular appeal.

[Nonc Hilaire]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24766314

A standup comic's gimmick, a "not born again" charismatic, or is he onto something?

A large part of the appeal of religion is the congregation, and social support, not the doctrine.

There are of course existing Humanist societies, but they tend to be dry and without popular appeal.

What he is onto are the subtle emotional effects of architecture, group singing, ritual and oration presented in a quieting, non-stimulating atmosphere.

[Enki]

I've often wondered why atheists don't create community centers and institute some group ritual.

[Nonc Hilaire]

I've often wondered why atheists don't create community centers and institute some group ritual.

Because an effective liturgy leads towards the experience of God. It breaks down self-imposed mental and emotional barriers, and atheism depends on keeping those barriers intact. Otherwise athiests would have to admit they are either truly agnostics or are acting out a Freudian religious reaction formation.

[Doc]

Much better that way IMHO

[Nonc Hilaire]

Much better that way IMHO

Not clear. Please elucidate.

[Doc]

Much better that way IMHO

Not clear. Please elucidate.

Church is not for me. Nor any organized religion. Humans are way to fallible to put that kind of faith in. It doesn't matter if they are liberals, conservatives, religious ,anesthetists, or coneheads they all have something to push. I would rather search for the truth than take in mass quantities of someone Else's purported version of it. .

[Taboo]

I've often wondered why atheists don't create community centers and institute some group ritual.

Pottery clubs, book clubs, dance clubs, sci-fi clubs, comicons of various sorts. I find it hard to understand why religious people can't get it that atheists' lives are not defined by being an atheist, with the exception of a few who, generally speaking, were so traumatized by attempted (and failed) religious indoctrination that they are anti-religious with gusto. Most of us simply don't care.

I will grant however that in the US, church, hillel or temples of various sorts are one of the main ways of integrating into a community. If I were to move for some unfathomable reasons to Alabama (first interview question: where do you worship?) or some such place without a non-religious social infrastructure in place, I'd be quite thoroughly screwed and a social outcast.

It'd be quite interesting to see a geographical distribution of self-reported atheists and nonbelievers of various kinds: wonder how many would choose to stay in the Bible-belt for instance.

[Marcus]

quest.jpg (19.17 KiB) Viewed 1155 times

One of the leading thinkers to emerge in the postwar conservative intellectual revival was the sociologist Robert Nisbet. His book The Quest for Community, published in 1953, stands as one of the most persuasive accounts of the dilemmas confronting modern society.

Nearly a half century before Robert Putnam documented the atomization of society in Bowling Alone, Nisbet argued that the rise of the powerful modern state had eroded the sources of community—the family, the neighborhood, the church, the guild. Alienation and loneliness inevitably resulted. But as the traditional ties that bind fell away, the human impulse toward community led people to turn even more to the government itself, allowing statism—even totalitarianism—to flourish.

ISI Books is proud to present this new edition of Nisbet’s magnum opus, featuring a brilliant introduction by New York Times columnist Ross Douthat and three critical essays. Published at a time when our communal life has only grown weaker and when many Americans display cultish enthusiasm for a charismatic president, this new edition of The Quest for Community shows that Nisbet’s insights are as relevant today as ever.

[Nonc Hilaire]

. If I were to move for some unfathomable reasons to Alabama (first interview question: where do you worship?) . . .

In Alabama, Bryant-Denny Stadium.

We are talking about the non-material and non-religious aspects of organized worship. Torchwood's example is curious, but decisively Western Christianity in theme. It does demonstrate that religion has fundamental aspects which are independent of theology and politics.

Perhaps the logical starting point is the attraction of an open flame.

[Doc]

. If I were to move for some unfathomable reasons to Alabama (first interview question: where do you worship?) or some such place without a non-religious social infrastructure in place, I'd be quite thoroughly screwed and a social outcast.

Bryant-Denny Stadium.

Or any stadium of worship near you

[Marcus]

. . If I were to move for some unfathomable reasons to Alabama (first interview question: where do you worship?) or some such place without a non-religious social infrastructure in place, I'd be quite thoroughly screwed and a social outcast. . .

Not even . .

. . ain't no such place . .

. . check the local mall for worship service hours . .

. . communion is taken in local restaurants by denomination (Baptists at McDonalds, Methodists at Carl's Jr., Catholics at Red Lobster, etc.)

[Ibrahim]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24766314

A standup comic's gimmick, a "not born again" charismatic, or is he onto something?

A large part of the appeal of religion is the congregation, and social support, not the doctrine.

There are of course existing Humanist societies, but they tend to be dry and without popular appeal.

This seems to be a goal for some atheists, but I've never seen a long-term working example. I think the closest might be some "neo-pagan" movements, like England's "Order of Bards, Novates, and Druids." By all accounts lovely people, but I wonder if they seriously believe they are recreating an ancient religion and aren't instead using it as a kind of vector for interacting with like-minded people. But of course I have no way of knowing if this is accurate.

Without some kind of real or imagined belief framework you're talking about finding a sport for people who don't like sports.

Pottery clubs, book clubs, dance clubs, sci-fi clubs, comicons of various sorts.

But these interests apply to religious people as well. The hunt has to be specifically for something that is similar to, and replaces, conventional religious worship.

[Taboo]

But these interests apply to religious people as well. The hunt has to be specifically for something that is similar to, and replaces, conventional religious worship.

That was kinda my point. Most atheists I know are not very self-conscious about being atheists, unless prodded by some religious fanatic. To give you a sense of what I mean, it would be like having a non-Zeus worshipers club for Christians. We have better things to do on Sunday mornings (or whatever day is holy in your particular flavor).

[Nonc Hilaire]

But these interests apply to religious people as well. The hunt has to be specifically for something that is similar to, and replaces, conventional religious worship.

That was kinda my point. Most atheists I know are not very self-conscious about being atheists, unless prodded by some religious fanatic. To give you a sense of what I mean, it would be like having a non-Zeus worshipers club for Christians. We have better things to do on Sunday mornings (or whatever day is holy in your particular flavor).

p
No, you are getting off track. Torchwood's example is the worldly trappings of religion completely removed from theism.

What is the stimulus/response value of the situation? This is an opportunity to separate the social value of religion from the theological.

[Demon of Undoing]

Oh, he means he wants to have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

Yeah, I expect that. Statism is nearly there now, and will get to be more so as we go along.

[Taboo]

No, you are getting off track. Torchwood's example is the worldly trappings of religion completely removed from theism.

What is the stimulus/response value of the situation? This is an opportunity to separate the social value of religion from the theological.

Well, the worldly trappings of religion (and all the associated self-righteous, and often murderous drama that comes with it) is what drove atheists away from religion in the first place.

You want to salvage particular useful bit, such as a neighborhood mutual-help group and such things, go ahead, but godless rituals and priests and tithes and chants, no thanks.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

...but godless rituals and priests and tithes and chants, no thanks.

*pops Prozac*

[Taboo]

...but godless rituals and priests and tithes and chants, no thanks.

*pops Prozac*

?

[Nonc Hilaire]

No, you are getting off track. Torchwood's example is the worldly trappings of religion completely removed from theism.

What is the stimulus/response value of the situation? This is an opportunity to separate the social value of religion from the theological.

Well, the worldly trappings of religion (and all the associated self-righteous, and often murderous drama that comes with it) is what drove atheists away from religion in the first place.

You want to salvage particular useful bit, such as a neighborhood mutual-help group and such things, go ahead, but godless rituals and priests and tithes and chants, no thanks.

I'm still not being clear. Religion has many aspects and functions. In providing a control group of sorts, this flaky cult does provides an interesting aid in discerning psychological effects from revelation and inspiration.

Perhaps I am more interested than most because one thing I do is create effective worship liturgies used in Christian worship. It involves including psychological elements such as entertainment, persuasion, and structured relaxation to give revelation a vehicle with which to circumvent the ego.

This person is essentially promoting a Christian placebo effect and I would love to interview some of his audience.

[Parodite]

Religion has many aspects and functions. In providing a control group of sorts, this flaky cult does provides an interesting aid in discerning psychological effects from revelation and inspiration.

Discerning between the psychological effects of a glass of wine from revelation and inspiration? Man... you sound flaky at times here. And please don't hide between your "people who have not experienced the divine will never understand it" type of pretentious crap talk.

Wtf are you talking about Nonc? Are you saying you are able to discern between mere "psychological effects" and "revelation and inspiration"? How does that work? Where do psychological effects end.. and revelation and inspiration begin? Did you all read it in the divine manuals, words of pious poets you read once? Or did you have personal experiences, insights of sorts.. even before you were brainwashed, still freely discovering life? Etc etc..

[Ibrahim]

No, you are getting off track. Torchwood's example is the worldly trappings of religion completely removed from theism.

What is the stimulus/response value of the situation? This is an opportunity to separate the social value of religion from the theological.

Well, the worldly trappings of religion (and all the associated self-righteous, and often murderous drama that comes with it) is what drove atheists away from religion in the first place.

Atheists have proven themselves just as self-righteous and murderous, so that leaves us at a bit of a stalemate.

[Mr. Perfect]

The Bible sometimes indicates hardly anyone will make it. Sometimes it indicates that maybe 1/2 will make it. So some interpret the former to mean the world population and the latter to mean the Church. As reasonable as anything I suppose.

So TI's observation is that indeed not everyone is there for the God part so much. Jesus said something about lukewarm. We already know about that.

However, if we believe that we are children of God and therefore family and brothers and sisters then having "community" is perfectly natural for a lot of people. I am not one, I'm not particularly social, I usually spend a lot of energy getting away from people. I'll move mountains to be with family and friends but you'll never catch me at a limbo party of any persuasion.

I skip almost all Church social functions but I have no problem with those who partake. If one were a God searching person then being with like minds makes all the sense in the world. Being with people who have the same standards.

How atheists organize their own lives is not anything I concern myself with, I wish them well.

[Taboo]

Atheists have proven themselves just as self-righteous and murderous, so that leaves us at a bit of a stalemate.

The obvious answer is to avoid creating the social structures that concentrate power into the hands of one individual or are easily captured by a small cohesive group, and working towards dismantling those that already exist or at least placing them in a context where the totalitarian impulses of various groups work against each other rather than in concert. James Madison worked to make the US constitution shape things this way, but as we can see, the executive has still managed to gradually usurp most of the power. The checks and balances were not strong enough.

Needless to say, I would be just as scared of totalitarian atheists as I am by totalitarian muslims or jews or hindus. The only (and quite slim) advantage of atheists is that they lack an official central totalitarianism-endorsing dogma, whereas most other religions explicitly tell their adherents that they know what is best for others and that they are superior to others.

[Ibrahim]

Atheists have proven themselves just as self-righteous and murderous, so that leaves us at a bit of a stalemate.

The obvious answer is to avoid creating the social structures that concentrate power into the hands of one individual or are easily captured by a small cohesive group, and working towards dismantling those that already exist or at least placing them in a context where the totalitarian impulses of various groups work against each other rather than in concert.

I'm not just referring to leaders and states here, but the average atheist. In my experience atheists are just as (or more) likely to hold violent views towards those who believe differently than they do. As for self-righteousness? Well, if you have access to the Internet I'm sure you can quickly find a few million examples of self-righteous atheism. YouTube and Twitter provide a steady stream of awfulness from atheists and theists alike. But atheism seem more fashionable at this precise moment.

The only (and quite slim) advantage of atheists is that they lack an official central totalitarianism-endorsing dogma, whereas most other religions explicitly tell their adherents that they know what is best for others and that they are superior to others.

Clearly false, as history has proven. Not only does atheism have a history of ideologically-based mass-murder, there is no ideological check on such behavior. For every "violent" passage in the Bible/Torah/Quran/whatever there is another "non-violent" one somewhere else. There is no such check on atheist excesses beyond what they can justify to themselves, and history has shown us that this isn't much of a check at all.