Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Yes we know what is best for others
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Yes sometimes it is okay
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No
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HELL NO!!
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Other(please explain in reply)
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Doc
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Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Doc »

I imagine eugenics is one way to make sure the demographics always go your way.

Many of the comments at the link are quite good as well. I have enabled "change of vote" as well.

http://genotopia.scienceblog.com/337/is ... ever-okay/
Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

A flurry of eugenics-related news over the last couple of weeks demonstrates that we have to stop considering eugenics a historical period and think about it more as an ever-present theme. In my book I called it “the eugenic impulse”—not to invoke some sort of misty, mystical force but rather simply to point to something that seems deeply part of our nature. Which is not to say part of our DNA. My research convinced me of two things:

1) Mixed with the chauvinism, intolerance, and paternalistic governmentality of Progressive-era eugenics was an impulse to prevent disease and disability using state-of-the-art knowledge of heredity.

2) Mixed with present-day impulses to prevent disease and disability using state-of-the-art knowledge of heredity is a great deal of hype motivated more by the desire for profits than by humanitarian concerns.

In short, I could not escape the conclusion that some aspects of contemporary genetic medicine—both good and bad—are indistinguishable from some aspects of Progressive-era eugenics—both good and bad.

The Science of Human Perfection is my attempt to wrestle with the question, “Is eugenics ever okay?” Because I have refused to come down on the side of the dogmatic anti-eugenicists, some pro-eugenics types, eager for recruits, have marshaled my words for their cause. At the same time, some antis have accused me of supporting the enemy. If I make the argument that modern medical genetics comes from the same rootstock as Progressive-era eugenics, they fear that anti-abortion fanatics will use my work as ammunition to repeal Roe v. Wade.

To those of you on both extremes, here’s my answer: No, eugenics is not okay. It scares the crap out of me, to be honest. But it’s happening anyway. No one—and certainly not a historian—is going to stop us from using genetic technology in the attempt to perfect the human race. The most intelligent response is to point out (and so hopefully avoid) the greatest risks.

*

For years, historians of eugenics have maintained that the term eugenics is no longer helpful. It is too loaded, they say; invariably, it invokes the Nazi past. Whatever programs in controlled breeding or self-directed evolution may be going on, it’s alarmist and a distraction, they say, to call them “eugenics.” For years, this was a reasonable and level-headed response, but it is no longer viable. Not because it’s less loaded, but because today’s historical actors are using it.

A growing number commentators from within the scientific community are arguing for a revisitation of eugenics:

“Seeing the bright side of being handicapped is like praising the virtues of extreme poverty. To be sure, there are many individuals who rise out of its inherently degrading states. But we perhaps most realistically should see it as the major origin of asocial behavior that has among its bad consequences the breeding of criminal violence.” (James Watson, “Genes and Politics,” 1997)

“We are once again practicing a sort of eugenics” (Matt Ridley, “The New Eugenics,” 2000)

In 2001, the conservative theorist Richard Lynn published Eugenics: A Reassessment, which argues just what you think it does. In 2002, researcher DJ Galton (no relation to the founder of eugenics) considered the new genetics, test-tube babies, and genetic screening and called a spade a spade: Eugenics: The Future of Human Life in the 21st Century.

“Eugenics failed because it was not scientific enough…The role of eugenics in our time is in maximizing [hereditary] information and its availability to those who need it and minimizing the temptation to use the State as the means of enforcing eugenic ideals.” (Elof Carlson, “The Eugenic World of Charles Benedict Davenport,” 2008)

“A new interest in rational discourse about eugenics…should be our goal.” (Maynard Olson, “Davenport’s Dream,” 2008)

“Soon it will be a sin of parents to have a child that carries the heavy burden of genetic disease. We are entering a world where we have to consider the quality of our children.” (Bob Edwards [creator of first test-tube baby])

“Eugenics, once discredited as part of the first wave of social authoritarian progressives that trampled free will for women, handicapped people and minorities, is attempting a 21st century comeback.” (Hank Campbell, “Genetic Literacy Project on Neo-Eugenics,” 2012)

“To a great extent we already live in the second age of eugenics.” (Razib Khan, “Eugenics, the 100 year cycle”, 2012)

The most recent is Jon Entine, who runs the Center for Genetic Literacy and writes regularly for the conservative money magazine Forbes. “Instead of being driven by a desire to ‘improve’ the species,” he writes, the “new eugenics is driven by our personal desire to be as healthy, intelligent and fit as possible—and for the opportunity of our children to be so as well.” (Jon Entine, “DNA Screening is Part of the New Eugenics—and That’s Okay,” 2013)

No, we are not trying to improve the species—just our children, and our children’s children, and our children’s children’s children,…

Talk of a new eugenics, then, is no longer idle hand-wringing. When our actors themselves are using the term, historians and philosophers need to take notice and help make sense of it.

*

The fact that Entine writes for Forbes, Ridley for the National Review, and Lynn for Mankind Quarterly suggests a linkage between the new eugenics and conservative ideologies. Eugenics has long had such associations. Some of the neo-eugenicists (e.g. Lynn) are ideologically linked to the old, discredited eugenic ideologies. But others (e.g., Ridley, Entine) I think are more complicated. Liberals and conservatives, of course, are a diverse lot. When critiquing neo-eugenics, we must bear in mind whether someone is writing from a position of profit-making, preservation of the social status quo, libertarian individualism, or other ideology.

Further, liberals can be eugenicists too. As Diane Paul showed years ago in “Eugenics and the Left,” political liberals were also deeply involved in eugenic schemes during the Progressive era. Most historians of eugenics agree that to a first approximation, everyone in the Progressive era was a conservative. Sterilization legislation was democratically approved, and most sterilizations were carried out in state hospitals, under at least a premise of social benefit. There may well have been a conservative slant to Progressive eugenics, but it was only a slant, and by the 1930s eugenics probably had a liberal slant.

Because of this political ecumenicalism, eugenics today makes for some strange political bedfellows. If some pro-eugenics advocates lean conservative, so do some antis. The Catholic Church—hardly a bastion of liberal fanaticism—opposes eugenics on grounds that it generally entails either abortion or embryo selection. Matt Ridley favors eugenics and is a pro-business conservative. Genetic screening can be seen as a liberal, feminist issue—an issue of women’s choice and empowerment. Or it can be seen as a tool of government social control. Finally, genetic screening and eugenics are not necessarily the same thing. The Center for Genetics and Society supports abortion and genetic screening but seeks to establish a critical biopolitics that can help shape policy to reap the benefits and avoid the risks of reproductive technologies—a position Entine constantly takes them to task over, presumably because they are not simple cheerleaders.

Eugenics, then, does not hew unswervingly toward either pole of the political spectrum. The eugenics question forces us to parse some traditionally liberal and conservative ideas in new ways. Favoring genetic technology is pro-business (conservative). Favoring prenatal genetic diagnosis with abortion is pro-choice (liberal). Fearing the power of genetic manipulation falling into the hands of totalitarian regimes: liberal. Favoring open markets and “consumer choice”: pro-business conservative. Sometimes this consumer-driven eugenics is even called “liberal eugenics.” Perhaps that’s a smokescreen, but maybe not entirely.

Political ideology, then, can’t help us make an easy decision on whether eugenics is ever okay. If the new eugenics has a conservative tilt it’s only a tilt, and there’s plenty of counterweight on the other side. Unfortunately, we’re going to have to make up our own minds.

eugenics-tree



To do that, we first have to accept that the eugenic train has left the station. Understood as “the self-direction of human evolution” (the slogan from the 1921 eugenics congress and for me still the most inclusive definition I’ve found), eugenics is going to happen. Is happening. Always happens. For now, it’s still mainly for elites who can afford expensive IVF and genetic screening, but the cost of those procedures is dropping rapidly and more people are gaining access to it each year. Many people are in fact currently making eugenic choices, from the wealthy who can afford prenatal genetic diagnosis with selective abortion to the Dor Yeshorim who screen for and discourage marriage between carriers of Tay-Sachs and a range of other genetic diseases. On this much, I agree with folks like Entine. Where we part company is that I’m not nearly so sanguine about it as he seems to be.

Recognizing that we are grasping the reins of human evolution as fast as we can raises two sets of concerns. First, “What if it doesn’t work?” It’s been argued for some time that our technological capacity greatly outstrips both our wisdom and our understanding. It’s often argued that genetic choices have been made since the dawn of marriage, so opposition to techniques such as embryo selection is mere technophobia. But even age-old holistic breeding practices have unpredictable, undesired effects. Sweet-tempered Laborador retrievers tend to get hip dysplasia and eye problems. Great Danes’ hearts fail. Some quarter horses are prone to connective tissue disorders or “tying up” episodes related to their highly bred musculature. The European royal families are prone to hemophilia and polydactyly. Selecting for single genes, rather than traits that involve suites of genes that have evolved together, seems likely to exacerbate such unintended consequences. The emerging science of systems biology holds that genes act—and hence evolve—in networks. Selecting for particular genes rather than complex traits disrupts those networks and is likely to have unpredictable effects.

We in fact have very little idea how the genome works. The genome is like an ecosystem, a brain, or the immune system: an immensely complex, deeply interconnected system. Altering one element or a few elements has effects that are not only unknown but in many cases unpredictable. Evolution, Darwin showed, is an immensely slow process, in which innumerable parts “negotiate” with one another to produce the best-adapted organisms in a given environment at a given time. In taking control over that process, we will be altering the “ecology” of the genome, and it’s bound to have similar effects to our impact on the environment. With great wisdom, it might be handled safely, but experience does not give one much hope for collective human wisdom.

The second concern is, “What if it does work?” What if it does indeed become possible to select traits—health, height, complexion, intelligence—without creating cruel monsters? I have enough faith in technology that I think this may eventually happen. Some unforeseen consequences will doubtless occur, but in time they will become correctable. So what do we do when this becomes possible? We need to keep in mind that this will be a tool of the upper strata of society for a good long time. The rich will do it more than the poor, and Americans and Europeans will do it more than Bangladeshis and Somalians. So it will be a way of inscribing socioeconomic status literally in our DNA. This is in fact a conservative application, because it will tend to reinforce the socioeconomic status quo.

Further, in most developed countries, it’s not government control we need to worry about; it’s corporate control and the tyranny of the marketplace. Advertisers will push certain genotypes. Ad campaigns, current styles, and the rapidly shifting current consensus on what is or is not healthy will shape people’s genetic decisions. And of course, you can’t shed your genome the way you can last year’s fashions. The concern here, then, is that the new eugenics harnesses long-term processes in the service of short-term goals. This too will have unpredictable effects. History shows without a doubt that societies are rarely wise; we have great trouble seeing several moves ahead, planning for the future, delaying gratification, or sacrificing some of next quarter’s earnings so that we may reap greater health and happiness some time in the future. Even more troubling than failures of technology, then, are failures of morality. And glib reassurances that we are beyond Nazi-style totalitarianism do little to comfort me. The age of self-interested individualism can be just as scary as that of communal self-sacrifice.

Most critical analyses of past eugenic efforts have centered on race, class, and gender. I think that the greatest concern with the new eugenics will likely be the fourth member of the “big three”: disability. Another recent story concerns the stunning development of a method of “silencing” chromosomes. Every nucleated cell in a woman’s body uses this to turn off one of her two X chromosomes; otherwise, women would have a double dose of X chromosome genes, which would lead to lots of problems. The advance is in harnessing this technique so that it can be applied to non-sex chromosomes. Down syndrome results from an extra (third) chromosome 21. The blogs and papers have been awash lately with speculations about “shutting off” the extra chromosome 21 in embryos, to prevent Down syndrome.

The problem is that the severity of Down’s is unpredictable. A family might well be happy to have a high-functioning Down’s baby, but a severely affected child suffers greatly, as does its parents. Who would take that chance? If (when) this technique becomes widely medically available, the frequency of Down syndrome will drop, simultaneously reducing suffering among the victims and families of severe Down’s and joy and love among those close to high-functioning Down’s patients. No humane person would never wish, say, Down syndrome on a family not equipped to handle such a child. But nor would I want to live in a society lacking in people with Down syndrome, or little people, or the blind. It’s not a wish for suffering; we all suffer. But engineering our own evolution will likely have a normalizing effect. Intolerance of abnormality was, indeed, a common refrain among Progressive-era eugenicists and greater power over our genetic future is only likely to increase it. The movie GATTACA got this much right: genetic disease leads to suffering—but so does intolerance.

Gattaca-jude-law-14393222-640-412

Is eugenics ever okay? On the individual scale, of choosing not to raise a child with a debilitating disease, I think we have no moral choice but to condone it. A prospective parent talking with a genetic counselor about whether to prevent a deformed or diseased baby from being born is in fact a form of eugenics. But my research made it irrefutable that eugenics has always been simultaneously about individuals and populations. Individual choices lead to population changes—and individual choices are influenced by more than objective genetic knowledge. Although those parents’ choice is for their family rather than the race, they are simultaneously participating in the self-direction of human evolution—it is a choice that any Progressive-era eugenicist would have condoned. And, granting the right to abortion and embryo selection, that is an entirely moral choice.

But what influences that parent’s choice? The biomedical industry hides truly fantastic profits behind the cloak of “health.” Moving responsibly into this inevitable future demands that someone call out the self-interest of the diagnostics and pharmaceutical companies, the instrument-makers and laboratories, the hospitals, the advertisers, and the investors in this new age gold mine. It demands analysis of subtle forms of coercion. It demands a jaundiced eye. Skepticism isn’t Luddism, isn’t anti-choice, isn’t anti-health. It’s following the money.

Much as one might wish to do so, the genie can’t be stuffed back into the bottle. The new eugenics is here. This worries me greatly. But worry, by itself, solves nothing. The concerns it raises are too complex for either dogmatism or complacency. It comes with new, subtle kinds of coercion. Science alone cannot be our guide into this brave genetic world. The closer we come to guiding our own evolution, the more important a humanistic perspective—one that takes the long view of history and the broad view of social context—becomes in helping us make sense of it. The future is here, and, dammit, it’s complicated.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Simple Minded »

Excellent post Doc.

The desire to control one's destiny, the desire for humanity to be free from disease, the fear of the 1% becoming even more powerful, the desire to dominate the others who are less able, infinite number of pros and cons. None of which are new.

The desire to centrally plan humanity in the future seems a macrocosm of the desire to centrally plan economies in the present. How to trust those who get the technology first? If Germany starts breeding super engineers, or china starts breeding super scientists, can other countries, cities, states, resist the urge to compete? Will France create Super wine makers? Portugal, super sweet bread makers? The US super NASCAR drivers?

I am often amazed that even the names parents give their children follows trends. Mommy & Daddy will want their future son to be Mohammed Ali or Einstein, or their future daughter to be Jennifer Anniston or Madam Curie.... depending upon what is currently chic, and so will the other soon-to-be-parents.

Big Bro will reply "Sorry Comrades, our projections for 2030 show we will need more plumbers, nurses, soldiers, and minimum wage workers......"

As the author said, the future is here...... the sword has been forged, it will be used.

Great basis for a lot of Sci-Fi novels.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Ibrahim »

No.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by manolo »

Ibrahim wrote:No.
Seconded.

Alex.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

You wonder why the left has been so accommodating to China. Wait I think i know, they like eugenics.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Simple Minded »

regardless of who claims to be against eugenics, it really does not matter if govts or organizations approve eugenics "for the common good," perspective parents may well be the first to buy in.

If Doktor X says I can give your kids a 30 point advantage in IQ, or eliminate your family tendency towards dyslexia, obesity, being a Buffalo bills fan, watching reality TV, etc....... Mommy & Daddy will ante up as quickly as they do now for designer clothes or the latest video game.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Doc »

Simple Minded wrote:regardless of who claims to be against eugenics, it really does not matter if govts or organizations approve eugenics "for the common good," perspective parents may well be the first to buy in.

If Doktor X says I can give your kids a 30 point advantage in IQ, or eliminate your family tendency towards dyslexia, obesity, being a Buffalo bills fan, watching reality TV, etc....... Mommy & Daddy will ante up as quickly as they do now for designer clothes or the latest video game.
Sure or cure perceived childhood diseases

http://video.pbs.org/video/1316921025/
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Enki »

Simple Minded wrote:Excellent post Doc.

The desire to control one's destiny, the desire for humanity to be free from disease, the fear of the 1% becoming even more powerful, the desire to dominate the others who are less able, infinite number of pros and cons. None of which are new.
This bit is funny since it is the 1% that implement eugenic policies.

Listen to Bill Gates crow about how they have reduced birth rates in Africa.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

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Enki wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Excellent post Doc.

The desire to control one's destiny, the desire for humanity to be free from disease, the fear of the 1% becoming even more powerful, the desire to dominate the others who are less able, infinite number of pros and cons. None of which are new.
This bit is funny since it is the 1% that implement eugenic policies.

Listen to Bill Gates crow about how they have reduced birth rates in Africa.
The left owns eugenics. At least Sanger did not feel that force euthanasia as many of her contemporary progressives believed was appropriate BTW. But still What Gates is doing is not eugenics of the 1% This is not based on getting rid of the "Unfit" as the progressive eugenics folks were talking about. He has also done more than anyone else to end malaria. IE made it possible for more people to live.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger#Early_life
Social activism

In 1911, after a fire destroyed their home in Hastings-on-Hudson, the Sangers abandoned the suburbs for a new life in New York City. Margaret Sanger worked as a visiting nurse in the slums of East Side, while her husband worked as an architect and a painter. Already imbued with William Sanger's leftist politics, Margaret Sanger also threw herself into the radical politics and modernist values of pre-World War Greenwich Village bohemia, where she joined the Women's Committee of the New York Socialist party. She took part in the labor actions of the Industrial Workers of the World, including the notable 1912 Lawrence Textile Strike and the 1913 Paterson Silk Strike and she became involved with local intellectuals, artists, socialists, and social activists including John Reed, Upton Sinclair, Mabel Dodge, and Emma Goldman.[7]

Her political interests, emerging feminism and nursing experience led to her 1912 column on sexual education entitled "What Every Mother Should Know" and "What Every Girl Should Know" for the socialist magazine New York Call.[note 2]
Last edited by Doc on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

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LOL @ The Left owns Eugenics.

If it's bad it's left-wing mmmkay?

The Nazis were right wing and eugenics was pretty core to what they are doing.

The entire history of civilization is eugenics. Eugenics is most basic aspect of politics. Controlling who gets to breed, with whom, when, how, why. The King has to sign off on your marriage. Royals can only marry royals. Don't marry below your station but marry above it if at all possible. Propagate your genes.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Excellent post Doc.

The desire to control one's destiny, the desire for humanity to be free from disease, the fear of the 1% becoming even more powerful, the desire to dominate the others who are less able, infinite number of pros and cons. None of which are new.
This bit is funny since it is the 1% that implement eugenic policies.

Listen to Bill Gates crow about how they have reduced birth rates in Africa.
:D

Tinker,

I'm going to take this post as indicative that you did not see the word cons in the previous post.

Eugenics is always proposed by those who claim humanitarian ideals. Whether one agrees with their self-professed label of humanitarian or not is another thang!

Check out the November 2009 issue of Socionomics. Zeitgeist parallels between now and the last time eugenics was chic are interesting.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

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Enki wrote:LOL @ The Left owns Eugenics.

If it's bad it's left-wing mmmkay?

The Nazis were right wing and eugenics was pretty core to what they are doing.

The entire history of civilization is eugenics. Eugenics is most basic aspect of politics. Controlling who gets to breed, with whom, when, how, why. The King has to sign off on your marriage. Royals can only marry royals. Don't marry below your station but marry above it if at all possible. Propagate your genes.
Wrong wrong wrong and part delusional plus "positive" pre-eugenics which is mostly moot IE go forth and multiply is not what we are talking about but also why American are not allowed to carry a royal title. The left certainly owns eugenics. Eugenics no matter who is pushing it is wrong. The Nazi's were certainly more left wing than right wing, as I have already demonstrated in these forums:
viewtopic.php?p=66102#p66102
Most of the Nazis' 25 demands were left wing particularly the last 15:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_S ... _the_NSDAP
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18,We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language; c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[8]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

You say "Eugenics is (the)most basic aspect of politics." I say it is politics to you inherently because you are on the left side of the political spectrum. The top three mass murders of the 20th century were leftists. One was a psychopath power/control freak (Stalin) Another was an ideological power control freak (Mao) and the third was a populist mostly left wing Eugenic power control freak (Hitler)

That is the trifecta baby.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote:LOL @ The Left owns Eugenics.

If it's bad it's left-wing mmmkay?

The Nazis were right wing and eugenics was pretty core to what they are doing.
The Nazis were for Keynesian stimulus, banning of guns, government control of industry, single payer medicine, workers rights, national SOCIALISM and so on.

What's with the blatent display of ignorance Tinker. What do you get out of it.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote: This bit is funny since it is the 1% that implement eugenic policies.

Listen to Bill Gates crow about how they have reduced birth rates in Africa.
Bill Gates is a leftist. Yet another left wing eugenicist.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote: The top three mass murders of the 20th century were leftists. One was a psychopath power/control freak (Stalin) Another was an ideological power control freak (Mao) and the third was a populist mostly left wing Eugenic power control freak (Hitler)

Hitler was right wing, and admired by a number of famous right wing figures in America and England. Churchill, though not a fan of Hitler, was a proponent of eugenics, and the Empire of Japan (hardly left wing) also operated a eugenics program.

So you really need to stop repeating the lie that that was a left-wing phenomenon.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Hitler was for Keynesian stimulus, banning of guns, government control of industry, single payer medicine, workers rights, national SOCIALISM and so on.

He was also admired by a number of famous leftists.

Hitler was not right wing.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Hitler was for Keynesian stimulus, banning of guns, government control of industry, single payer medicine, workers rights, national SOCIALISM and so on.
Worker's rights? He had trade unions banned and seized their funds. Strikes were outlawed.

He was so enamored of your bogeyman, socialism, that he had the socialists and communists killed.

He would have fit right in with the military-industrial complex.
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YMix
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Hitler was not right wing.
Government control of everything is a staple of political thought across the world, whether on the right or the left. The libertarian right wing that's next door to anarchism in its view of the government's role has always been a fringe movement without any real power.

Therefore, it would be correct to say that Hitler was not right wing according to what right wing has come to mean in some parts of the USA. But that's about it. And no, you can't accuse the US left of being too inclusive of gays, blacks and other minorities and still call Hitler a leftist. It doesn't work like that.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote: Worker's rights? He had trade unions banned and seized their funds. Strikes were outlawed.
So you've capitulated on all the other points.

It appears you've swallowed uncritically yet another leftist MSM canard, Hitler did not "ban" unions, he created one of his own;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Labour_Front

with a very leftist outlook.

A socialist will naturally abolish unions as the government takes more control of economy, unions only serve a leftist purpose when applied to bourgeois capitalist running dog corporations. Just like what Hitler did. A socialist like Hitler sees the goverment as the ultimate power, not a union.

FDR also believed in curtailing public sector unions but not private. A pretty easy to understand trend. Leftists naturally want no competition against government.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/sta ... governmen/
He was so enamored of your boogie man, socialism, that he had the socialists and communists killed.
Are you talking about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

He didn't kill them because of their ideology, he killed them because he viewed them as a political threat. No different than a Democrat primary.

Sounds like you have nothing to back up your statements. Socialism and communism should be everyone's boogie man.
He would have fit right in with the military-industrial complex.
The "MIC" was created by Franklin Roosevelt. The atomic bomb was created by a Democrat and then used by a second Democrat. Militaries are thousands of years old and have been used by all political persuasions.

Try this for "Military Industrial Complex".

Image

Looks like there is no real basis to claim Hitler was a "right winger". None at all.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote: Government control of everything is a staple of political thought across the world, whether on the right or the left. The libertarian right wing that's next door to anarchism in its view of the government's role has always been a fringe movement without any real power.
Other than the Founders of the United States of America and the Republican Party. Ask any Democrat, they'll tell you the GOP is Ayn Rand anarchy. Just ask Ibs. Harry Reid said the GOP are anarchists, and we're about to reclaim overall majority status next year.
Therefore, it would be correct to say that Hitler was not right wing according to what right wing has come to mean in some parts of the USA. But that's about it. And no, you can't accuse the US left of being too inclusive of gays, blacks and other minorities and still call Hitler a leftist. It doesn't work like that.
Incomprehensible.

Hitler was clearly a leftist. He ran the National SOCIALIST party, he banned guns, he created a left wing labor union, practiced Keynesian stimulus, bolstered single payer hc and so forth. He wasn't a right winger.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Simple Minded »

so I guess it still boils down to anyone who preaches that one size fits all is a hater of humanity.... unless of course he is the leader of our gang....

emotional mentation....
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Incomprehensible.
Heh, that's not my fault. :)
Hitler was clearly a leftist. He ran the National SOCIALIST party, he banned guns, he created a left wing labor union, practiced Keynesian stimulus, bolstered single payer hc and so forth. He wasn't a right winger.
Of course he was. See my answer above.
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

See Wikipedia for a discussion of right-left political classification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left–right_politics

The left-right political spectrum is a system of classifying political positions, ideologies and parties. Left-wing politics and right-wing politics are often presented as opposed, although a particular individual or group may take a left-wing stance on one matter and a right-wing stance on another. In France, where the terms originated, the Left has been called "the party of movement" and the Right "the party of order."[1][2][3][4] The intermediate stance is called centrism and a person with such a position is a moderate.
There is general consensus that the Left includes progressives, communists, social-liberals, greens, social-democrats, socialists, democratic-socialists, civil-libertarians (as in "social-libertarians"; not to be confused with the right's "economic-libertarians"), secularists, and anarchists,[5][6][7][8] and that the Right includes conservatives, reactionaries, neoconservatives, capitalists, neoliberals, economic-libertarians (not to be confused with the left's "civil-libertarians"), social-authoritarians, monarchists, theocrats, nationalists, Nazis (including neo-Nazis) and fascists.[9]
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Simple Minded »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:See Wikipedia for a discussion of right-left political classification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left–right_politics

The left-right political spectrum is a system of classifying political positions, ideologies and parties. Left-wing politics and right-wing politics are often presented as opposed, although a particular individual or group may take a left-wing stance on one matter and a right-wing stance on another. In France, where the terms originated, the Left has been called "the party of movement" and the Right "the party of order."[1][2][3][4] The intermediate stance is called centrism and a person with such a position is a moderate.
There is general consensus that the Left includes progressives, communists, social-liberals, greens, social-democrats, socialists, democratic-socialists, civil-libertarians (as in "social-libertarians"; not to be confused with the right's "economic-libertarians"), secularists, and anarchists,[5][6][7][8] and that the Right includes conservatives, reactionaries, neoconservatives, capitalists, neoliberals, economic-libertarians (not to be confused with the left's "civil-libertarians"), social-authoritarians, monarchists, theocrats, nationalists, Nazis (including neo-Nazis) and fascists.[9]
So if a left-winger assigns a label to someone, including himself, he is implying order, does that change him into a right winger? ;)

Seems Wikipedia is just as confused as us in regards to this matter.

Is Wikipedia the egg and us the chicken, or us the egg and Wikipedia the chicken?

either way it still seems that it is up to "us" to define "them" cause obviously "they" obviously ain't up to the task at hand. "They" tried labeling themselves, but "they" got it wrong!...... ;)

Might not be our social right to label others, but more like a social obligation... or at least recreation....

Doesn't confusion always result whenever "we" take advice from the French?
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Re: Is Eugenics Ever Okay?

Post by Enki »

Hitler was a leftist only in that you define the left-wing as 'everything that is bad.'
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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