Christ as a capitalist

[Mr. Perfect]

Well "aspiring" in a general sense is not the same as desiring what your neighbor has. Desiring what your neighbor has is socialism, yet another way that belief system is incompatible with the gospel.

I'm not sure how the concept of ownership has changed much. I look now at my possessions as God's possessions, but they are given to me and not other people. They are my stewardship and not the stewardship of others. When a socialist comes around and wants to claim stewardship over them I see that as a clear violation of God's law. It is not their stewardship.

[Nonc Hilaire]

USeR4myzKQI

[Mr. Perfect]

I think people struggle to understand what capitalism is. I thinkm ZM might call it "capitalistaphobia".

[Typhoon]

[Mr. Perfect]

They had money in ancient times. The drawing o f Jesus, he wanted the poor to have money. A number of references to it. Before Jesus they were commanded to give money to the storehouses.

Why does everyone conflate "money" with "capitalism"? All economies use money.

[Typhoon]

They had money in ancient times. The drawing o f Jesus, he wanted the poor to have money. A number of references to it. Before Jesus they were commanded to give money to the storehouses.

Why does everyone conflate "money" with "capitalism"? All economies use money.

To paraphrase Dean Martin, "Relax, pal. It's just a cartoon."

[Mr. Perfect]

It is now.

[Parodite]

Since money existed in pre-capitalist times and also is now used in any type of society and economy.. from the USA to North Korea.. it is a bit silly to to draw any conclusions from Jesus giving some coins to the poor as to whether he was a (pre-) capitalist or a (pre-)socialist.

[Mr. Perfect]

Read what Bono had to say (OP).

[Parodite]

Read what Bono had to say (OP).

Maybe I will. Just see you started a thread where you associate Christ with capitalism. That is silly.

[Mr. Perfect]

No it isn't, it is critical if you want to fulfill Christ's wishes. Just read the simple statement from Bono.

[YMix]

Pope: 'unjust' unemployment can mean sin, suicide

VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Pope Francis extolled the benefits of sharing wealth with the poor on Tuesday, warning that "unjust" social conditions like unemployment can lead to sin, financial ruin and even suicide.

The Jesuit pope has frequently railed about the excesses of capitalism and income disparity in a globalized world, and his message for Lent issued Tuesday echoed those same concerns.

Lent is the solemn period leading up to Holy Week and Easter, when the faithful recall Christ's death and resurrection. It's a time when Christians often fast, and Francis urged the faithful to deny themselves certain things this Lent "to help and enrich others by our own poverty."

"When power, luxury and money become idols, they take priority over the need for a fair distribution of wealth," he said in the short message. "Our consciences thus need to be converted to justice, equality, simplicity and sharing."

He said it's not enough to just make charitable offerings. ""Let us not forget that real poverty hurts: no self-denial is real without this dimension of penance. I distrust a charity that costs nothing and does not hurt," he wrote.

While calling for Christians to actually touch poverty and make it their own, Francis distinguished material poverty or destitution from moral destitution, which he said "consists of slavery to vice and sin."

"How much pain is caused in families because one of their members - often a young person - is in thrall to alcohol, drugs, gambling and pornography!" he lamented.

Sometimes "unjust social conditions" like unemployment lead to this type of destitution by depriving people of the dignity of work and access to education and health care, he said.

"In such cases, moral destitution can be considered impending suicide."

Francis has riled some conservative Americans for his denunciation of capitalism and trickle-down economic theory, which is says is based on a survival of the fittest mentality "where the powerful feed upon the powerless" with no regard for ethics, the environment or even God.

His predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, however, espoused the exact same concerns, writing an entire encyclical in 2009 in which he denounced the profit-at-all-cost mentality blamed for bringing about the global financial meltdown and called for a new world financial order guided by ethics and the search for the common good.

[noddy]

this is the point all the dissonance leaves my poor head spinning.

first we have the jesuit pope upset at

depriving people of the dignity of work

and

"How much pain is caused in families because one of their members - often a young person - is in thrall to alcohol, drugs, gambling and pornography!" he lamented.

sounding like one of those nasty calvinists many people here seem to loathe.

then we have the

Francis has riled some conservative Americans for his denunciation of capitalism and trickle-down economic theory, which is says is based on a survival of the fittest mentality

including a libertarian sprinkle of

He said it's not enough to just make charitable offerings. ""Let us not forget that real poverty hurts: no self-denial is real without this dimension of penance. I distrust a charity that costs nothing and does not hurt," he wrote.

delicious.

[Endovelico]

Liberation theology is on its way back! Ratzinger, the reactionary, will lose!...

[Mr. Perfect]

I think the pope is the most economically ignorant person in public life, and he has a lot of competition.

[Mr. Perfect]

The questions leftists will never answer. If money is bad, why give it to the poor. If work is bad why shouldn't we all strive to be unemployed.

[Endovelico]

The questions leftists will never answer. If money is bad, why give it to the poor. If work is bad why shouldn't we all strive to be unemployed.

Who ever said that money is bad or that work is bad?... Greed is bad and so is the exploitation of those who work for a living. But those are features of capitalism.

[Mr. Perfect]

Who ever said that money is bad or that work is bad?...

A number of people in this very thread.

Greed is bad and so is the exploitation of those who work for a living. But those are features of capitalism.

I don't know, gov't bureaus seem greedier than any capitalist I ever met, and of course I'm not sure how to explain how the tens of millions who died from communism would be worse off working for say google or facebook.

[Enki]

The questions leftists will never answer. If money is bad, why give it to the poor. If work is bad why shouldn't we all strive to be unemployed.

Who ever said that money is bad or that work is bad?... Greed is bad and so is the exploitation of those who work for a living. But those are features of capitalism.

That this has to be said to the same person 4000 times is precisely why I don't bother much anymore.

[Nonc Hilaire]

The questions leftists will never answer. If money is bad, why give it to the poor. If work is bad why shouldn't we all strive to be unemployed.

Who ever said that money is bad or that work is bad?... Greed is bad and so is the exploitation of those who work for a living. But those are features of capitalism.

From a religious POV, this is a confusion between usury (interest) and equity investment. In the OT, charging interest was forbidden amongst Hebrews but allowed in Gentile transactions.

Quite frankly, Muslims hold the moral high ground here. They do not distinguish between belief systems.

[Mr. Perfect]

Bothering at what.

Jesus did not talk about helping people out of poverty. His emphasis was on selfless giving, rejecting materialism & security, and relying on God rather than self. He directly stated the poor will be with us always; giving was never about ameliorating poverty.

The need to eliminate self-reliance and to depend entirely upon God was a clear objective throughout the OT & NT. Personally, I fail at this but I am trying to improve.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Bothering at what.

Jesus did not talk about helping people out of poverty. His emphasis was on selfless giving, rejecting materialism & security, and relying on God rather than self. He directly stated the poor will be with us always; giving was never about ameliorating poverty.

The need to eliminate self-reliance and to depend entirely upon God was a clear objective throughout the OT & NT. Personally, I fail at this but I am trying to improve.

"Bothering" at our immortal souls, chucklehead. Surrender, repent and abase yourself before the glory of God.

[Mr. Perfect]

Thanks for that. My comment was directed at Tinker and you proved my point to him, although I am sure it was inadvertent.

[Mr. Perfect]

I have seen whole denominations spring up over very basic reading comprehension mistakes. You go into a denomination and ask them what sets them apart and you want to hit them on the head, get their attention, correct their abysmal reading errors. But you can’t really, denominations are a very sensitive subject. Hard to get through to people.

Here is a tragically common one reading comprehension error, and the misinterpretation is based solely on stupefyingly poor reading. If you fell for it is because you are an incredibly poor reader.

Look how it goes.

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Ok, there it is. I’m sure many of you are very self satisfyingly crossing your arms and feel that I am directly walking into a buzzsaw. That I will appeal to hail mary type translation error (if anyone sees TI send him over here, I think he ran across an actual one).

But no, I will not do that. I will appeal to basic thinking, which is when one is studying a scholarly subject you have to READ THE WHOLE PASSAGE.

Gulp. I just heard you gulp. You never read the whole passage did you. I know you didn’t. I can see into your mind.
Uh oh. I can sense the trembling. Your worldview is about to be destroyed, you fear. No, I never even thought to read the whole passage you say to your self. What does the rest of it say. I’m afraid to read it, maybe I could have been cosmically wrong my whole life, and perpetrated false teaching. What do I do.

I don’t know what you’ll do, but you are going to have to do something.

[Mr. Perfect]

So here is the bomb. Pucker up.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

If only I had read that before! You scream in your mind. Yeah. You should have read that before.

The slower among you, it hasn’t dawned on you yet. Herk, what dat Perfect seyin. What he say.
For the slow, the disciples/apostles hear Jesus say that people who did not forsake all would not be saved and they thought that it applied to them, they who had forsook all. They did not think it applied to the rich exclusively (this is backed up in later verses)

But there is more! you say. There are more verses which surely will bail out my position! I hear you say. Yes there is. You should read them. Like here is the next verse.

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible

Now think about that. Is going through the eye of a needle possible with God? I guess if all things are possible, certainly this is.

So feel free to read the rest, and the other accounts in Luke and Mark while you’re at it. And then adjust your world view accordingly (closer to mine, and real scripture).

Which is simply, that God consistently through all scripture has commanded us not to put material things before him, whether you are rich or poor. That a rich man or a poor man can put possessions before God.