Best American students far behind their foreign peers

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


Even Gifted Students Can’t Keep Up

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. . In a post-smokestack age, there is only one way for the United States to avoid a declining standard of living, and that is through innovation. Advancements in science and engineering have extended life, employed millions and accounted for more than half of American economic growth since World War II, but they are slowing. The nation has to enlarge its pool of the best and brightest science and math students and encourage them to pursue careers that will keep the country competitive.

But that isn’t happening.

Not only do average American students perform poorly compared with those in other countries, but so do the best students, languishing in the middle of the pack as measured by the two leading tests used in international comparisons.

.

Look, guys, this no rocket science .. you did not want to spend the money to educated the mass to lead to talent .. you thought, what the heck, WE BUY TALENT .. let others, poor countries, Iran, India, China educate and we buy their talent with luring them to America and money and democracy and this kind of stuff

it worked

but not anymore

Now, soon, others might soon buy your talent


The "good old days America" was a paradise to attract talent .. things changed a bit and changing more

So, Doc and Monster and you guys , be nice to Iranians as many Phd and doctorate candidates on Stanford and MIT and Caltech are Iranians fresh from Tehran's Sharif university

.

[Typhoon]

On the other hand,

IEEE | The STEM crisis is a myth

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

On the other hand,

IEEE | The STEM crisis is a myth

.

from the above NYT artcile :

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On the 2012 Program for International Student Assessment test, the most recent, 34 of 65 countries and school systems had a higher percentage of 15-year-olds scoring at the advanced levels in mathematics than the United States did. The Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland all had at least twice the proportion of mathematically advanced students as the United States, and many Asian countries had far more than that.

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Should read that NYT article .. quite convincing

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[Doc]

.

On the other hand,

IEEE | The STEM crisis is a myth

.

from the above NYT artcile :

.

On the 2012 Program for International Student Assessment test, the most recent, 34 of 65 countries and school systems had a higher percentage of 15-year-olds scoring at the advanced levels in mathematics than the United States did. The Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland all had at least twice the proportion of mathematically advanced students as the United States, and many Asian countries had far more than that.

.

Should read that NYT article .. quite convincing

.

Look, guys, this no rocket science .. you did not want to spend the money to educated the mass to lead to talent

[Demon of Undoing]

The trouble with America is the Americans. It's getting worse. You should see the particulars of Obama's favored Common Core. It makes everyone common, all right.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

It's immigration propaganda. Guys like Mark Zuckerberg want cheaper H1-B visa guys and gals to run his Facebooks and Insta-thingymajiggies. It's why he's funding immigration reform in both the Democratic and Republican parties and I don't think it's a stretch to say he's behind newspapers articles like the one in the times. That's why the answer, ultimately to all these newspaper concerns is more immigrants asap.

Ultimately Demon of Undoing is right: you can give a student an education, but you can't make him think.

[manolo]

The trouble with America is the Americans. It's getting worse. You should see the particulars of Obama's favored Common Core. It makes everyone common, all right.

Demon,

"Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there. It is to our interest that people should know just enough to recognise the signs on the roads."

Adolph Hitler

(From 'Hitler's Table Talk.')

[Huxley]

I have no doubt that America is dumbing down and that the school system needs to be tweaked. But let's not exaggerate the failure of public education here.

The article claims that Americans are lagging behind on two leading international tests, but only named one of them, the most recent PISA (2012). Going by PISA, it seems that the U.S. is one of the dunces of the developed world. But is that really fair?

The U.S. is a huge, heterogenous and sharply unequal country of 314 million people. I don't think it's very meaningful to compare test results from the U.S. to tiny, homogenous countries like Finland (let alone Shanghai - explain to me how a city, and the financial center of China to boot, gets a place on this list!), sort of how it's not very meaningful to compare the U.S. healthcare system to that of, say, Denmark.

The problem is not necessarily with the system, per se, as with the input, i.e., the American people, as Demon remarked.

For instance, I know it's impolitic to point this out, and let me assure you I'm not one of those guys who is endlessly fascinated by "human biodiversity," but... I think it's worth mentioning that if you break down the PISA scores by race, a very different picture emerges.

Choose your own theory to explain the disparities, but they do exist. And not just along racial lines. America is plagued by deep, deep unresolved social and cultural problems that can't be fixed by improving the schools. Which is not to say we shouldn't improve the schools, but we should at least be clear about what the real problems are.

[Endovelico]

I couldn't help laughing at Portugal doing better than the US and almost as well as Norway! We have been accused of being the typical Mediterranean dunces who are in trouble because we are lazy, underachievers and ignorant! And therefore we deserve being in trouble and having other countries punishing us for our sins!... Well, maybe there are other reasons for our present difficulties, as I have mentioned before. It is interesting to notice that five years ago our trade balance was negative and the deficit was close to 10% of our GDP, and in 2013 it is expected to be positive with surplus equal to 3% of GDP. Either we became a lot smarter and efficient in five years, or there is another explanation...

[Simple Minded]

I have no doubt that America is dumbing down and that the school system needs to be tweaked. But let's not exaggerate the problem here.

The article claims that Americans are lagging behind on two leading international tests, but only named one of them, the most recent PISA (2012). Going by PISA, it seems that the U.S. is one of the dunces of the developed world. But is that really fair?

The U.S. is a huge, heterogenous and sharply unequal country of 314 million people. I don't think it's very meaningful to compare test results from the U.S. to tiny, homogenous countries like Finland (let alone Shanghai - explain to me how a city, and the financial center of China to boot, gets a place on this list!), sort of how it's not very meaningful to compare the U.S. healthcare system to that of, say, Denmark.

The problem is not necessarily with the system, per se, as with the input, i.e., the American people, as Demon remarked.

For instance, I know it's impolitic to point this out, and let me assure you I'm not one of those guys who is endlessly fascinated by "human biodiversity," but... I think it's worth mentioning that if you break down the PISA scores by race, a very different picture emerges.

Choose your own theory to explain the disparities, but they do exist. And not just along racial lines. America is plagued by deep, deep unresolved social and cultural problems that can't be fixed by improving the schools. Which is not to say we shouldn't improve the schools, but we should at least be clear about what the real problems are.

Yeah, but people in those other nations aren't as fat or as recreation-centered as US, so we got em beat there!!

Those who wish to celebrate diversity, often don't like the results of allowing diversity to exist! No wonder the "fixers" never work themselves out of a job!

I also have no doubt that the US is experiencing the typical decline of a wealthy nation. Happens to individuals, families, companies, cities, counties, states, why not nations?

"We become wiser by adversity; prosperity destroys our appreciation of the right." Seneca

"I'll say this for adversity, people seem to be able to stand it, and that's more than I can say for prosperity."

[Simple Minded]

I couldn't help laughing at Portugal doing better than the US and almost as well as Norway! We have been accused of being the typical Mediterranean dunces who are in trouble because we are lazy, underachievers and ignorant! And therefore we deserve being in trouble and having other countries punishing us for our sins!... Well, maybe there are other reasons for our present difficulties, as I have mentioned before. It is interesting to notice that five years ago our trade balance was negative and the deficit was close to 10% of our GDP, and in 2013 it is expected to be positive with surplus equal to 3% of GDP. Either we became a lot smarter and efficient in five years, or there is another explanation...

I hear mega doses of vitamin EU is good for whatever ails you......

[Heracleum Persicum]

The trouble with America is the Americans. It's getting worse. You should see the particulars of Obama's favored Common Core. It makes everyone common, all right.

Demon,

"Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there. It is to our interest that people should know just enough to recognise the signs on the roads."

Adolph Hitler

(From 'Hitler's Table Talk.')

.

manolo,


it is a sad story

governments badmouth Hitler and Goebbels but have adapted their methods and views

why so ?

Because a lot of things what H & G were saying were sad truth and reality in western world, more so today

yes, the bigger the lie, the more and faster TRUTH it becomes .. Zionist/Israel best example .. not Palestinian Exodus but Jewish Exodus became reality thanks to Holly Wood

and

yes, the dumb the mass kept the easier for elite to ride the donkey, long live Hokey and sex and beer and in the meantime Africa a nation and no continent .. all this no accident but deliberate and cold reality

YES, Hitler and Goebbels said many things that is the sad truth of even present time

GESTAPO too read all the mails and listened to all phones, what NSA doing today .. Foreign nationals had not the same right in Hitler Germany as Germans had, similar today for foreigners in America .. even H & G did not have something similar to "Patriot 2"

This a sad truth

but,

what makes it sad

is not the way things are

rather,

sad is that people accept all this

Sad indeed


.

[Doc]

The trouble with America is the Americans. It's getting worse. You should see the particulars of Obama's favored Common Core. It makes everyone common, all right.

Demon,

"Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there. It is to our interest that people should know just enough to recognise the signs on the roads."

Adolph Hitler

(From 'Hitler's Table Talk.')

In the US the left controls the school systems. Looks like they are working to make Hitler proud. As I pointed out, it is certainly not for lack of money the schools are failing.

To appreciate how an average can obscure huge variations in academic performance, just subdivide US test scores by race and ethnicity (for these data, see here). In the 2009 PISA reading scores for fifteen year olds from 65 nations and regions the average score is 500. The United States as a nation scored 500, a result hardly befitting a world power committed to educational excellence. The top scores come from Shanghai, China (556). But in second place are American students of Asian ancestry (541) who even out-perform students in Korea, Singapore, Japan and Hong Kong. In 7th place are US whites whose test scores exceed those in every European nation except Finland! Far down the ranking list are Hispanics (466) and near the bottom are US blacks (441). The 2007 TIMMS math results show nearly the identical pattern. Here in both 4th and 8th grade, US students of Asian ancestry cluster near the top together with Asians in Asia but close by are white Americans and further below are Hispanics and, near the bottom, American blacks.

(hat tip to cass)

The real problem with the US education system isn't money It is liberals telling poor kids they are victims. So they do not take education seriously because they don't see any point in getting an education as they will always be victims. That along with the urban plantation atmosphere where gang leaders are the "Massars" and don't want potential members to learn and use their education to get out of the ghettos.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

come on, Doc , come on

How was the level of education in communist Russia best mathematiciens and physics and and and, make it poor like a mouse communist Russia, and, (forced) worst than poor like a mouse communist Eastern Europe, or Cuba ? ? ?

this not a liberal and socialist fault, in fact a conservative baby .. conservatives mindset is whywaste money educating poor kid, f*ck them (we buy telent from China and Iran and Taiwan and India), all those prep school force feeding rich kids to push them into ivy leagues is the reason top American university PHd candidates are foreign born and educated

come on, Doc , come on, don't kid yourself (spare you get your facts B4 distorting them)

.

[Nonc Hilaire]

The trouble with America is the Americans. It's getting worse. You should see the particulars of Obama's favored Common Core. It makes everyone common, all right.

Demon,

"Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there. It is to our interest that people should know just enough to recognise the signs on the roads."

Adolph Hitler

(From 'Hitler's Table Talk.')

In the US the left controls the school systems. Looks like they are working to make Hitler proud. As I pointed out, it is certainly not for lack of money the schools are failing.

To appreciate how an average can obscure huge variations in academic performance, just subdivide US test scores by race and ethnicity (for these data, see here). In the 2009 PISA reading scores for fifteen year olds from 65 nations and regions the average score is 500. The United States as a nation scored 500, a result hardly befitting a world power committed to educational excellence. The top scores come from Shanghai, China (556). But in second place are American students of Asian ancestry (541) who even out-perform students in Korea, Singapore, Japan and Hong Kong. In 7th place are US whites whose test scores exceed those in every European nation except Finland! Far down the ranking list are Hispanics (466) and near the bottom are US blacks (441). The 2007 TIMMS math results show nearly the identical pattern. Here in both 4th and 8th grade, US students of Asian ancestry cluster near the top together with Asians in Asia but close by are white Americans and further below are Hispanics and, near the bottom, American blacks.

(hat tip to cass)

The real problem with the US education system isn't money It is liberals telling poor kids they are victims. So they do not take education seriously because they don't see any point in getting an education as they will always be victims. That along with the urban plantation atmosphere where gang leaders are the "Massars" and don't want potential members to learn and use their education to get out of the ghettos.

Utter nonsense. Doc, how many kids do you have in U.S. public schools today ? I guess zero.

[Mr. Perfect]

Democrat controlled black inner cities are routinely graduating kids at 30-50% rates now, and Democrats are happy with it. This is a Democrat issue. Unless you think blacks aren't people.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

Love to see some statistics, Colonel Sun specialty, showing how much each nation, say, Germans, French, Swiss, Americans, Canadians, Japanese, how much Dollars PER student is spent until graduation secondary school, high-school .. that is what I meant when I said America does not spend money for education

If America spends "per student" more money than Germans and the result is what we see, if so, than something wrong and one should find out what that something is

.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Democrat controlled black inner cities are routinely graduating kids at 30-50% rates now, and Democrats are happy with it. This is a Democrat issue. Unless you think blacks aren't people.

OK, Mr. P. How many kids do you have in public education? Like Doc, I think you are making generalizations where you have no relevant experience. I have a preteen in public school, and know schooling is very much a local matter - down to the individual school level.

Please return to advising us on financial matters. That is a subject you know something about, and the membership could use some guidance. Where can I safely invest monies and be assured of a reasonable return?

[Doc]

The trouble with America is the Americans. It's getting worse. You should see the particulars of Obama's favored Common Core. It makes everyone common, all right.

Demon,

"Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there. It is to our interest that people should know just enough to recognise the signs on the roads."

Adolph Hitler

(From 'Hitler's Table Talk.')

In the US the left controls the school systems. Looks like they are working to make Hitler proud. As I pointed out, it is certainly not for lack of money the schools are failing.

To appreciate how an average can obscure huge variations in academic performance, just subdivide US test scores by race and ethnicity (for these data, see here). In the 2009 PISA reading scores for fifteen year olds from 65 nations and regions the average score is 500. The United States as a nation scored 500, a result hardly befitting a world power committed to educational excellence. The top scores come from Shanghai, China (556). But in second place are American students of Asian ancestry (541) who even out-perform students in Korea, Singapore, Japan and Hong Kong. In 7th place are US whites whose test scores exceed those in every European nation except Finland! Far down the ranking list are Hispanics (466) and near the bottom are US blacks (441). The 2007 TIMMS math results show nearly the identical pattern. Here in both 4th and 8th grade, US students of Asian ancestry cluster near the top together with Asians in Asia but close by are white Americans and further below are Hispanics and, near the bottom, American blacks.

(hat tip to cass)

The real problem with the US education system isn't money It is liberals telling poor kids they are victims. So they do not take education seriously because they don't see any point in getting an education as they will always be victims. That along with the urban plantation atmosphere where gang leaders are the "Massars" and don't want potential members to learn and use their education to get out of the ghettos.

Utter nonsense. Doc, how many kids do you have in U.S. public schools today ? I guess zero.

Which part is "Utter nonsense"?

The part about how much the US spends on Education relative to the world? The part where Alex implies that the US doesn't spend much on education so it would make Hitler proud? Or the part about kids growing up without fathers? Or are you just saying that violence in inner cities is not a problem?.......Especially in the city Obama came from? Where his former chief of staff is now mayor?

where are we at war.JPG (46.88 KiB) Viewed 1061 times

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16 YEAR OLD HONORS STUDENT BEATEN TO DEATH WITH 2X4'S WHY? BECAUSE HE TRIED TO BREAK UP A FIGHT WHERE HIS FRIEND WAS BEING GANGED UP ON.(GRAPHIC)
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[noddy]

maybe america is ahead of the curve and you cant trick kids into wasting years of their lives building up debts for jobs that dont exist as easily as you can other places.

this is a wishy washy handwaving opinion for the secular progress religion.

[Doc]

maybe america is ahead of the curve and you cant trick kids into wasting years of their lives building up debts for jobs that dont exist as easily as you can other places.

this is a wishy washy handwaving opinion for the secular progress religion.

This has been going on for fifty years.

[Mr. Perfect]

Democrat controlled black inner cities are routinely graduating kids at 30-50% rates now, and Democrats are happy with it. This is a Democrat issue. Unless you think blacks aren't people.

OK, Mr. P. How many kids do you have in public education? Like Doc, I think you are making generalizations where you have no relevant experience. I have a preteen in public school, and know schooling is very much a local matter - down to the individual school level.

Please return to advising us on financial matters. That is a subject you know something about, and the membership could use some guidance. Where can I safely invest monies and be assured of a reasonable return?

Why should I care only for my own kids.

“If anyone has good schooling and sees Democrats destroying it for other people but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?”

[Doc]

Democrat controlled black inner cities are routinely graduating kids at 30-50% rates now, and Democrats are happy with it. This is a Democrat issue. Unless you think blacks aren't people.

OK, Mr. P. How many kids do you have in public education? Like Doc, I think you are making generalizations where you have no relevant experience. I have a preteen in public school, and know schooling is very much a local matter - down to the individual school level.

Wow there !! I never said anything about having or not having a kid in the public school system. In fact I had one in a public school just two years ago and school system is a mess. I could talk at great lenght why the local school system is sch a mess. But I wasn't even talking about public schools in general I was talking about inner city schools.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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interesting

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[Heracleum Persicum]

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NYT - Editorial ... Why Other Countries Teach Better
Why Students Do Better Overseas

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Millions of laid-off American factory workers were the first to realize that they were competing against job seekers around the globe with comparable skills but far smaller paychecks. But a similar fate also awaits workers who aspire to high-skilled, high-paying jobs in engineering and technical fields unless this country learns to prepare them to compete for the challenging work that the new global economy requires.

..

The American work force has some of weakest mathematical and problem-solving skills in the developed world. In a recent survey by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a global policy organization, adults in the United States scored far below average and better than only two of 12 other developed comparison countries, Italy and Spain. Worse still, the United States is losing ground in worker training to countries in Europe and Asia whose schools are not just superior to ours but getting steadily better.

The lessons from those high-performing countries can no longer be ignored by the United States if it hopes to remain competitive.

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