Nationalism and the European Consciousness

[manolo]

Folks,

Writing in Paris in 1934, Joseph Roth expresses a sentiment that has relevance today.

“ The pride of being born in a particular country, within a particular nation, annihilates the feeling of European universality.” The title of his essay is “Europe is only possible without the Third Reich.”

With clear prescience, Roth sees what nationalistic patriotism is going to do to Europe, after WW1 and well before WW11. He is particularly concerned with the effect of resurgent German nationalism, but his point is general as well as particular. He says that we should:

“..formulate an international agreement, that everyone - even today - can sign up to. That any, and I do mean any, national pride is an absurdity and to espouse it displays a mark of bad taste.”

Perhaps, if Roth were here today, he would marvel at the peace and prosperity of modern Europe, but give careful warning on certain flirtations with nationalism among the less enlightened souls among us. Would he be right to worry?

Alex.

Source: On the End of the World, hesperus press, 2013.

[Endovelico]

The strange thing is the fact that many people seem to think that respect for national identity and European federalism are incompatible. They are not. The rule should be: what concerns exclusively the national community should be dealt with at the national level; what concerns Europe as a whole should be ruled at the Union's level. Besides, there can never be democracy at the European level without more federalism. Citizens must have the last word, at national and at the European level. And that requires federal institutions based on universal vote. Right now only the European Parliament is a democratic institution within the EU, and its powers are very limited. That's what needs to change.

[kmich]

Do you have a right to worry, manolo? Yes and no.

I do not believe that the conditions of the first half of the 20th century have any real parallel to the present. Nation states were rising then to the peak of their power in a final displacement of the old imperial orders. Escalation of grievances and grudges between nations became intense and dangerous, and economic deprivations went through periods of great severity.

The Europe of today is in the twilight of nation states as nations wane in power as their fiat money and capital increasingly become controlled and manipulated by transnational entities that, while having reasons for national influence, have no reason for national loyalties. The grievances between the nations have been displaced by ill formed citizen grievances against certain internal groups, religions, and the Union. Deprivations are extremely modest by 20th century standards. Endovelico mentioned federalism, which has been a Union idea. But what is the relevance of a national entity when it no longer can manage its own wealth and capital that can be transferred by non-state entities to anywhere money can be made?

I do not believe we will see a rise of 20th century nationalism; the grievances between nations are just not there, and national confidence is fragmented and tenuous at best. National interdependence is much too entrenched. Unrest will be likely, particularly if deprivation worsens, but it will likely be expressed in partisan, political divisions, as well as the targeting of unpopular ethnic and religious groups. While troublesome and periodically destructive, I doubt it will obtain the consistent institutional and wealth support to become dangerous at a national level.

I have no idea how this is going to work out. I hope the EU will muddle its way through. The transformation of a continent of kingdoms and nations that savaged each other for centuries to the point of civilization collapse to the stable and peaceful Europe of today is one of the greatest achievements of modern history, bought at a horrific cost.

[noddy]

why is some wishy washy concept like europe any stronger and more useful than the existing national identities.

from the outside it looks more like its dispersing along ethnic and economic faultlines as much as coming together.

[kmich]

why is some wishy washy concept like europe any stronger and more useful than the existing national identities.

from the outside it looks more like its dispersing along ethnic and economic faultlines as much as coming together.

Good point. While the EU perhaps has the potential scope to more effectively address the challenge of globalized capital than its individual nation members, there is little evidence that it has effectively developed the institutions and policies to do so. While the historical importance of European organizations from the Common Market to the contemporary EU as structural alternatives to the catastrophic nation divisions of the past cannot be overstated, it remains unclear how this is going to play out.

[Endovelico]

why is some wishy washy concept like europe any stronger and more useful than the existing national identities.

from the outside it looks more like its dispersing along ethnic and economic faultlines as much as coming together.

Good point. While the EU perhaps has the potential scope to more effectively address the challenge of globalized capital than its individual nation members, there is little evidence that it has effectively developed the institutions and policies to do so. While the historical importance of European organizations from the Common Market to the contemporary EU as structural alternatives to the catastrophic nation divisions of the past cannot be overstated, it remains unclear how this is going to play out.

There is no way out. Europe must become a federal state or at least a confederacy. Going back to fully separate and sovereign states is not a viable alternative. However, as it now stands, the EU is a complete failure. Since we cannot go back the only alternative is to move forward, no matter how distasteful that may seem to some. Only in a federation can we have democratic institutions in Europe. The trick is combining a truly democratic federal state with a high degree of autonomy on everything which concerns only any of the European countries. It's not even very difficult to achieve, once one decides to do it.

[Mr. Perfect]

How is Europeanism not just another form of nationalism.

All whistling in the graveyard, Europe is going extinct.

[Endovelico]

How is Europeanism not just another form of nationalism.

All whistling in the graveyard, Europe is going extinct.

Right now I would say that the chances of the US - as we know it - going extinct are a lot higher than Europe's... A steady influx of Latinos and Asians will take care of it...

[Mr. Perfect]

Europe's extinction is a given. The US fate is similar, but the right wing areas will survive. The left wing areas will burn in nuclear fire from the Chinese and Russians. One could say there is poetic justice in it.

[Alexis]

Roth's ideas have ambiguities.

“ The pride of being born in a particular country, within a particular nation, annihilates the feeling of European universality.”

That's a very strange thing to say. There is no European universality. There is human universality.

What Roth alludes to is replacement of national pride by pride of being born in the white rac... sorry, I meant Europe. That's a very understandable, even commendable feeling for an Austrian conscious of the danger of National-Socialism and willing to do what he can to oppose it. That's not a proper feeling for our time.

Personnally I would say that the pride of being born in a particular country annihilates -or at least handicaps- the feeling of human universality.

Incidentally, I'm not proud of being born in France. Nor am I proud to be French. How could I be rightly proud of something I had no merit in? I am pround of France, of my country... which is not the same thing.

He says that we should:

“..formulate an international agreement, that everyone - even today - can sign up to. That any, and I do mean any, national pride is an absurdity and to espouse it displays a mark of bad taste.”

Actually, it's not an international agreement that keeps global peace.

It is an international agreement to reserve the right of just war, outside wars of direct self-defense, to wars approved by a specific body - the UN Security Council.
Plus the existence of nuclear weapons and of several countries with all-aspect deterrence.

The second factor is at least as important, if not more, than the first.

Signatures are not enough. If there is but a single lesson to learn from the 1930s, it is this one.

[Alexis]

All whistling in the graveyard, Europe is going extinct.

Provoking, are we, Mr Perfect?

Toreador, we think we are?

Right now I would say that the chances of the US - as we know it - going extinct are a lot higher than Europe's... A steady influx of Latinos and Asians will take care of it...

OLE!!!



Sorry, but you missed, Endo...

However, Mr P. should beware, because being a toreador may be dangerous...

[Endovelico]

Pardon me, but the correct word is "torero" (Spanish) or "toureiro" (Portuguese)...

[Nonc Hilaire]

Pardon me, but the correct word is "torero" (Spanish) or "toureiro" (Portuguese)...

Really? Isn't there a sword planted in the bull's hump? Based on the costume, it appears to be a premature attempt to slay the bull by a matedor.

[Mr. Perfect]

Provoking, are we, Mr Perfect?

I don't know how a continent with a TFR of 1 survives.

[manolo]

Roth's ideas have ambiguities.

“ The pride of being born in a particular country, within a particular nation, annihilates the feeling of European universality.”

That's a very strange thing to say. There is no European universality. There is human universality.

Alexis,

I took Roth to be more journalist than philosopher, and agree with you that 'universality' makes more sense when we think of it as universal. I'm not sure that we can attain such ideals in a contingent world, but the idea is clear enough. BTW I have noticed a similar tension in the writings of Albert Camus, who seeks to espouse an attractive humanism while apparently forgetting that Arabs are people too.

Alex.

[Mr. Perfect]

These ideas rest on the concept of human beings being able to own other human beings. Slavery.

[Alexis]

Pardon me, but the correct word is "torero" (Spanish) or "toureiro" (Portuguese)...

Oups...

(my error stemmed from Bizet's Carmen aria of the Toreador... I guess this must be a French rendering of the Spanish word)

[Alexis]

I took Roth to be more journalist than philosopher, and agree with you that 'universality' makes more sense when we think of it as universal. I'm not sure that we can attain such ideals in a contingent world, but the idea is clear enough. BTW I have noticed a similar tension in the writings of Albert Camus, who seeks to espouse an attractive humanism while apparently forgetting that Arabs are people too.

I agree about Camus.
And real universality is indeed an ideal difficult to attain.

About your original question:

marvel at the peace and prosperity of modern Europe, but give careful warning on certain flirtations with nationalism among the less enlightened souls among us

I don't think Europe is the most worrying trouble spot today when it comes to nationalism (that is: hatred of people of a different nation) nor hatred of people of different religion. Far from it. All we have to show as far as nationalism is concerned is one political party in Greece + one in Hungary, each polling at 15% of vote.

"North"-"South" disputes ("You lazy Club Med profiteer!" vs "You psychorigid hegemonic-bent Northerner!") do not qualify as real hatred. And debates about future of EU (staying the course / revolutionary reform / quiet dismantlement) have nothing to do with hatred.

Most if not all regions of the world could envy such a situation.

[manolo]

I don't think Europe is the most worrying trouble spot today when it comes to nationalism (that is: hatred of people of a different nation) nor hatred of people of different religion. Far from it. All we have to show as far as nationalism is concerned is one political party in Greece + one in Hungary, each polling at 15% of vote.

"North"-"South" disputes ("You lazy Club Med profiteer!" vs "You psychorigid hegemonic-bent Northerner!") do not qualify as real hatred. And debates about future of EU (staying the course / revolutionary reform / quiet dismantlement) have nothing to do with hatred.

Most if not all regions of the world could envy such a situation.

Alexis,

Agreed.

Alex.

[jerryberry]

How is Europeanism not just another form of nationalism.

All whistling in the graveyard, Europe is going extinct.

Right now I would say that the chances of the US - as we know it - going extinct are a lot higher than Europe's... A steady influx of Latinos and Asians will take care of it...

Asians and Latinos are going to make the US as we know it go extinct? How so?

[manolo]

Asians and Latinos are going to make the US as we know it go extinct? How so?

jerry,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek6hBmoaeS4

"..as we know it.."

Alex.

[Endovelico]

How is Europeanism not just another form of nationalism.

All whistling in the graveyard, Europe is going extinct.

Right now I would say that the chances of the US - as we know it - going extinct are a lot higher than Europe's... A steady influx of Latinos and Asians will take care of it...

Asians and Latinos are going to make the US as we know it go extinct? How so?

They will make your view of the world radically different. There will still be a US but one which will act in a very different way.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

David comes back on the scene:

It was not Voltaire or Rousseau or Nietzche who ruined Europe, but rather St. Gregory of Tours and St. Isidore of Seville who built the flaw into Europe’s foundation in the Dark Ages. I know that conservatives are supposed to hold high the banner of Western civilization, but I have an arm cramp at the moment. Just as Hanns Johst’s character in “Schlageter” could not hear the word “Kultur” (the banner under which Wilhelmine Germany fought and lost World War I) without releasing the safety catch on his Browning, today’s Europeans cannot hear the word “Chosenness” without flashbacks of all of Europe’s awful wars.

http://pjmedia.com/spengler/2014/02/16/ ... epage=true

[jerryberry]

How is Europeanism not just another form of nationalism.

All whistling in the graveyard, Europe is going extinct.

Right now I would say that the chances of the US - as we know it - going extinct are a lot higher than Europe's... A steady influx of Latinos and Asians will take care of it...

Asians and Latinos are going to make the US as we know it go extinct? How so?

They will make your view of the world radically different. There will still be a US but one which will act in a very different way.

Again, How?

[Endovelico]

How is Europeanism not just another form of nationalism.

All whistling in the graveyard, Europe is going extinct.

Right now I would say that the chances of the US - as we know it - going extinct are a lot higher than Europe's... A steady influx of Latinos and Asians will take care of it...

Asians and Latinos are going to make the US as we know it go extinct? How so?

They will make your view of the world radically different. There will still be a US but one which will act in a very different way.

Again, How?

If you know any Latinos and Asians, whether in the US or abroad, you will know how.