Parodite wrote:I don't think workers who fight for better working conditions and pay are trying to "engineer" a society. Or people who loose their jobs or can't work for other reasons fight for a social security system will vote for political parties who "advertise" such jolly ideas.. just because they have fancy dreams about an ideal world. People want food on the table, a roof over their heads and good medical treatment when they need it at all times. This drives everything.
I think any self-aware individual desires a better life. To me the interesting aspect of their argument, is, are they actually aware of who funds better? If so, they are both self-aware and socially-aware.
Anyone can say, I can imagine a better world than the one that exists, and we all say it. But how society/culture has evolved to it's current state, is an iterative, engineering process. Which often involved decades or centuries of trial and error, gain and loss, and lessons learned.
To my simple mind, the interesting questions to ask Fred, when Fred says "I imagine better a better bridge, automobile, or nation." are,
1. Explain to me how the current status evolved.
2. Give me a cost/benefit analysis of your imagined change, specifically who benefits at whose expense.
3. Most importantly, tell me about actual costs, hidden costs, unintended consequences, and perverse incentives that your plan includes.
4. Lastly, how is it sustainable?
Those who imagine better are usually nice, well intentioned people. But if all they can talk about are the pros of their plan, and can't elaborate on the cons of their ideas, IMSMO, it means they have not thought it thru, are intentionally deceptive, willfully ignorant, mentally deficient, or like most of us, a bit too lazy to do so.
Entirely possible to make something better (a 100% safe car or airplane, for example), but how often is society willing to pay for it?
As Keynes pointed out, "In the long run we are all dead!" Humans focus on short term, and close to home.
All of which is not to say that the ubiquitous exchange of "I can imagine better, and if you're not in lockstep with my thinking you are intellectually or morally inferior!" is not endlessly entertaining.
Which is what draws us idealists together....
-worth 
that comes from voluntarily helping others. 
