Basic income for everyone?

Now, what news on the Rialto?
noddy
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by noddy »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
noddy wrote:
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Why do I think property reform and not guaranteed minimum wage is the way out of this dilemma?...........
this has been my stance for quite some time... you cant "fix" all the inequality but the number one cost of living that eats the poor and young alive is housing and the insanity of the worldview that houseflipping ever more expensive dog boxes is the path to riches for all.

compulsory services/fees/licenses are the other big target but we all know how that conversation goes.

Yes, yes......... when you can't raise the ceiling, you can lower the floor....'>...........
nar, just getting rid of the clutter can reveal the floor has alot more space in it than you ever suspected it did.

main point being is that the political aspects of both the western left wing and right wing dont give a flying flicker about the poor and the squabbles are all about public workers wages versus private workers wages.. the poor are but a rhetorical device.
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Doc
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Doc »

noddy wrote:
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Why do I think property reform and not guaranteed minimum wage is the way out of this dilemma?...........
this has been my stance for quite some time... you cant "fix" all the inequality but the number one cost of living that eats the poor and young alive is housing and the insanity of the worldview that houseflipping ever more expensive dog boxes is the path to riches for all.

compulsory services/fees/licenses are the other big target but we all know how that conversation goes.
Rent control. In NYC Retires living in Florida can afford to keep their apartments in NYC because of it. Never mind that the young lower income types get to subsidize it
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Doc wrote:
noddy wrote:
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Why do I think property reform and not guaranteed minimum wage is the way out of this dilemma?...........
this has been my stance for quite some time... you cant "fix" all the inequality but the number one cost of living that eats the poor and young alive is housing and the insanity of the worldview that houseflipping ever more expensive dog boxes is the path to riches for all.

compulsory services/fees/licenses are the other big target but we all know how that conversation goes.
Rent control. In NYC Retires living in Florida can afford to keep their apartments in NYC because of it. Never mind that the young lower income types get to subsidize it
Rent control is finger-in-the dike approach to this predicament. Hopefully property reform means that there will be market value dwelling space available for the lower echelon income earners. It may not be in the neighbourhood you want, it may not look like the residences of the better connected - but it will EXIST, and you will be able to live there if you need it...'>.....

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

"Property reform"? :?

But seriously, the problem with $#!%shack housing is the resale value. The only important aspect of a home these days is the resale.

And then the numbers still favor renting.

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noddy
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by noddy »

Mr. Perfect wrote:"Property reform"? :?

But seriously, the problem with $#!%shack housing is the resale value. The only important aspect of a home these days is the resale.

And then the numbers still favor renting.
huh, this isnt about sensible investment for middle class or aspirational middle class.

this is about not living under a bridge or on the floor of a government hostel... a tiny little space that is legally yours and you are allowed to be - without being treated like a stray dog.
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Yeah, I looked at some prices on $#!%shacks and I'm concerned they are still a suckers bet even compared to things like renting, even if it is a basement. Depreciation might be worse than cars.

In investment, you learn sometimes that cheap is actually quite expensive. It takes a lot of explaining. IE, a particular option may be selling for a dollar but the chances of the whole dollar decaying from time are near 100%. So it's just a stupid buy, no matter how "cheap".

This is what some of the self help types describe as a poverty cycle, when you are poor or whatever you are attracted to low price tags, but low price tags are often the lowest values, financially. I saw my parents do this over and over and over, wasting what little money they had. Learned it the hard way.

Life makes head hurt sometimes.
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Simple Minded

Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Simple Minded »


As always, an interesting idea to hypothesize upon….. but we still need to get past the theory stage and into the practical stage before I am confident this will fly. Let’s start with two very basic questions, that will need to be among the very first answered.

Who gets to hold the guns and decide who pays?

Whose heads do we point the guns at?

Until these questions are answered, why proceed with the theory?

My buddy from England loved to end discussions with Karl Marx’s famous ditty. Right until the day I pointed out that his 18 month old daughter would become one of society producers at the same time I became one of society’s leeches. “From your daughter according to her abilities, to me according to my needs works just fine for me.… Please remind her of this every time you put her to sleep!”

Suddenly, his ideology did not have the same appeal…. Odd.

The Forbes’ opinion piece reads like one of those famous “this time is different” ringing bell opinions you often hear just before the era of being fat, dumb, happy, and rich comes to an end for a decade or two or four. “We have reached an new era of permanent prosperity where we can now afford…..”

I looked at the other two sites. For each of the names listed on those sites, I would like to know:
- what percentage of their own income they voluntarily donate to charity to learn their real intent/character.
- how many hire accountants to lower their tax burdens.
- how many were raised poor and are self-made.
- how many are born in the upper middle class or above.
- how many are getting paid to advocate taking from others to help the less fortunate. Strangely enough, those who get paid to advocate taking from others, have a different opinion than those who are taken from, who often earn their income outside the realm of promoting ideas, say as masons or carpenters.

Nothing is easier than advocating someone else do more, or thinking that the angelic administrator we need is just around the corner, or ignoring millennia of history…… especially when it makes you feel good.

I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade (and of course, my reply is “heartless, etc”), but these ideas always seem dependent on ignorance of some very basic principles, and are usually include some form of public and self-deception.

Hopefully, I am wrong, and this time, it really is different. But based on the reaction of my friend from England, when I suggested he implement his cherished ideology on his own daughter…….. I think not.

These threads always remind me of a couple neighborhood kids who periodically have grand plans, say to change a bicycle, and a couple 1x6”s into a helicopter.... if they can only borrow a hammer, a few nails, some wire, and a pair of pliers. I always lend them the stuff, and enjoy discussing their ideas, I just never expect to get a helicopter ride out of the deal.
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Parodite
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:As always, an interesting idea to hypothesize upon….. but we still need to get past the theory stage and into the practical stage before I am confident this will fly.
You are quite right. But there has been research and experiment that go beyond the theory. There also is a socio-economic model behind it that seems to me a good alternative compared to current socio-economic models and those of the past.

Some interesting ideas in there, that satisfy 1) my libertarian stance in life where government should be as small as possible and interfere with as little as possible with private matters of people, 2) my urge to strangle bureaucratic cancerous overhead esp. tax systems, 3) my sense of social justice by drawing a poverty line below which nobody will end up living in principle.
Let’s start with two very basic questions, that will need to be among the very first answered.

Who gets to hold the guns and decide who pays?

Why is that even a question?

Whose heads do we point the guns at?

Until these questions are answered, why proceed with the theory?
Why you asking these silly questions SM? :P
Well, now that you asked them I'll give you my answer; Politics. I know I know.. US democracy is dead since dollars buy legislation (or prevent undesired legislation that is bad for lobbyists a/b/c/). But here democracy means something still, and there are new democracies being added to this community of European democracies I care for.
My buddy from England loved to end discussions with Karl Marx’s famous ditty. Right until the day I pointed out that his 18 month old daughter would become one of society producers at the same time I became one of society’s leeches. “From your daughter according to her abilities, to me according to my needs works just fine for me.… Please remind her of this every time you put her to sleep!”

Suddenly, his ideology did not have the same appeal…. Odd.

The Forbes’ opinion piece reads like one of those famous “this time is different” ringing bell opinions you often hear just before the era of being fat, dumb, happy, and rich comes to an end for a decade or two or four. “We have reached an new era of permanent prosperity where we can now afford…..”

I looked at the other two sites. For each of the names listed on those sites, I would like to know:
- what percentage of their own income they voluntarily donate to charity to learn their real intent/character.
- how many hire accountants to lower their tax burdens.
- how many were raised poor and are self-made.
- how many are born in the upper middle class or above.
- how many are getting paid to advocate taking from others to help the less fortunate. Strangely enough, those who get paid to advocate taking from others, have a different opinion than those who are taken from, who often earn their income outside the realm of promoting ideas, say as masons or carpenters.

Nothing is easier than advocating someone else do more, or thinking that the angelic administrator we need is just around the corner, or ignoring millennia of history…… especially when it makes you feel good.
You are trapped in the old paradigm!!! ;) :P And you might see ghosts where there aren't any. Look at the video, it gives statistics about how people expect/predict their own behavior to change if they received a basic income; most people think they will want to work still as much, be of value to themselves and others; only 10% say they will do nothing at all or something else they find useful but is not payed for. However if asked if they think others will be encouraged not to work if they get a basic income... 80% says yes! Now that is interesting eh? The reality might be that most people still love to work and want to work more on top of a guaranteed basic income.. but their ghostly fear is that most will abuse the system and just want to sit home enjoying the fruits of other peoples labor... Of course, if you are not paranoid, it doesn't mean nobody is following you :P

Another attractive idea in the video near the end, is to radically simplify the tax system by just using consumer tax on the end products and services. I favor anything that can make things simpler, more with less.
I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade (and of course, my reply is “heartless, etc”), but these ideas always seem dependent on ignorance of some very basic principles, and are usually include some form of public and self-deception.
Self-deception can work in both and all ways. I tend to see this basic income idea basically :o boiling down to a draconian sort of tax reform and removing loads of bureaucratic govt overhead which itself makes me immediately interested.. but on top it also makes sense as a crucial and needed adaptation to the modern reality of structural unemployment (machines do more lately, right?) and hence the need to loosen-up the 1:1 relation between labor and income. Even if you are a self-sustaining hunter-gatherer... nature also provides you freely with "a basic income" of available nuts, birds, rabbits... But that never kept people from evolving either. (although.. habits (not rabbits) die hard of course)
Simple Minded

Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:As always, an interesting idea to hypothesize upon….. but we still need to get past the theory stage and into the practical stage before I am confident this will fly.
You are quite right. But there has been research and experiment that go beyond the theory. There also is a socio-economic model behind it that seems to me a good alternative compared to current socio-economic models and those of the past.

Some interesting ideas in there, that satisfy 1) my libertarian stance in life where government should be as small as possible and interfere with as little as possible with private matters of people, 2) my urge to strangle bureaucratic cancerous overhead esp. tax systems, 3) my sense of social justice by drawing a poverty line below which nobody will end up living in principle.
Let’s start with two very basic questions, that will need to be among the very first answered.

Who gets to hold the guns and decide who pays?

Whose heads do we point the guns at?

Until these questions are answered, why proceed with the theory?
Why you asking these silly questions SM? :P
Well, now that you asked them I'll give you my answer; Politics. I know I know.. US democracy is dead since dollars buy legislation (or prevent undesired legislation that is bad for lobbyists a/b/c/). But here democracy means something still, and there are new democracies being added to this community of European democracies I care for.
My buddy from England loved to end discussions with Karl Marx’s famous ditty. Right until the day I pointed out that his 18 month old daughter would become one of society producers at the same time I became one of society’s leeches. “From your daughter according to her abilities, to me according to my needs works just fine for me.… Please remind her of this every time you put her to sleep!”

Suddenly, his ideology did not have the same appeal…. Odd.

The Forbes’ opinion piece reads like one of those famous “this time is different” ringing bell opinions you often hear just before the era of being fat, dumb, happy, and rich comes to an end for a decade or two or four. “We have reached an new era of permanent prosperity where we can now afford…..”

I looked at the other two sites. For each of the names listed on those sites, I would like to know:
- what percentage of their own income they voluntarily donate to charity to learn their real intent/character.
- how many hire accountants to lower their tax burdens.
- how many were raised poor and are self-made.
- how many are born in the upper middle class or above.
- how many are getting paid to advocate taking from others to help the less fortunate. Strangely enough, those who get paid to advocate taking from others, have a different opinion than those who are taken from, who often earn their income outside the realm of promoting ideas, say as masons or carpenters.

Nothing is easier than advocating someone else do more, or thinking that the angelic administrator we need is just around the corner, or ignoring millennia of history…… especially when it makes you feel good.
You are trapped in the old paradigm!!! ;) :P And you might see ghosts where there aren't any.

Maybe I am, but there are 1,000's of years of history (in addition to people I actually know) that predict that no matter what people will say they will do when "talk is cheap"... personal cost will always determine perspective and behavior. Mostly though, the advocates answering the above questions would just tell me how many of the professional or amateur advocates are already practicing what they preach without anyone holding a gun to their heads. HUGE FLASHING INDICCATOR of the plans eventual success - SM


Look at the video, it gives statistics about how people expect/predict their own behavior to change if they received a basic income; most people think they will want to work still as much, be of value to themselves and others; only 10% say they will do nothing at all or something else they find useful but is not payed for. However if asked if they think others will be encouraged not to work if they get a basic income... 80% says yes! Now that is interesting eh? The reality might be that most people still love to work and want to work more on top of a guaranteed basic income.. but their ghostly fear is that most will abuse the system and just want to sit home enjoying the fruits of other peoples labor... Of course, if you are not paranoid, it doesn't mean nobody is following you :P

Another attractive idea in the video near the end, is to radically simplify the tax system by just using consumer tax on the end products and services. I favor anything that can make things simpler, more with less.
I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade (and of course, my reply is “heartless, etc”), but these ideas always seem dependent on ignorance of some very basic principles, and are usually include some form of public and self-deception.
Self-deception can work in both and all ways. I tend to see this basic income idea basically :o boiling down to a draconian sort hence the previous silly questions - SM of tax reform and removing loads of bureaucratic govt overhead which itself makes me immediately interested.. but on top it also makes sense as a crucial and needed adaptation to the modern reality of structural unemployment (machines do more lately, right?) and hence the need to loosen-up the 1:1 relation between labor and income. Even if you are a self-sustaining hunter-gatherer... nature also provides you freely with "a basic income" of available nuts, birds, rabbits... But that never kept people from evolving either. (although.. habits (not rabbits) die hard of course)
I have no idea what you mean by a 1:1 relation between labor and income?

so far, parodite it seems you are advocating voluntary association, which I am all in favor of, since it works very well in so many areas. Still seems to be a problem of forcing the Peters in society to pay the Pauls. Paul is already on board, Peter wants to pay his mortgage.

But as in my previous post, if this is going to be some form of pseudo govt, not based on voluntary association, there will have to be draconian rules. How to pay comes to mind right after who holds the guns? US alone 300,000,000 people at $10k = $3,000,000,000,000 annual. Then there seems to be the obvious ignoring of the concept of basic price inflation.

Max number of children allowed? Who is allowed to reproduce? How to vote the non-producers off the island? What is the time period of sustainability? 5 years, 20 years, 50 years?

Fun idea to discuss, but given the amount of power required to implement on a large scale, I know I have never met the person or people I would trust with that kind of power.
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Parodite
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

SM, me reply was lost. :evil:

In short: nothing to worry about. People can implement/try this if they democratically choose to do so. I have no doubt it will not be in the USA for starters. Too many people dogmatically entrenched and brainwashed into fixed grooves and democracy more dead than alive it seems to me.

I might support the idea to implement this in the Netherlands. In fact there already exists "basic income" here in the sense that nobody can fall below a certain social minimum, so we can afford it. The change to

1) a real unconditional basic income system, in combination with
2) a radically simplified and reformed tax system (shoving all taxes into one consumer tax makes some sense to me but ain't looked at that with a hawk eye) and
3) a constitutional obligation for any govt to stay out of deficit, and
4) reform of the financial industry where a similar protection once provided by Glass-Steagall is restored...

...is not TOO much asked I think. :P But some pain will be there for those with a serious vested interest in how things operate at the moment. Which is where the problem arises as far as I can see. Not so much what guns are aimed at what heads if basic income would be implemented politically (if most people of a democratic nation state think it'll work and is good for everybody.. why not try it out? simpzzz az that)... but the guns that are pointing at heads, yours and mine, already. It is not too difficult to see, when you look at my 1)2)3)4)... whose guns that are.
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Parodite
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

The case for and against unconditional basic income in Switzerland


Growing wealth disparity in Switzerland has led to a referendum on an unconditional basic income, which could serve to narrow the gap


Switzerland’s democratic constitution is fashioned in such a way that, provided at least 100,000 nationals sign up to a single idea, public proposals can be turned to referendum. The system has so far seen Switzerland reject nuclear power, curb executive pay, and narrowly reject the 1:12 initiative in late November, which would have stopped monthly executive pay exceeding what the lowest paid staff member earns in a year.


130,000
Number of signatures in support of unconditional basic income

CHF 2,500
Monthly income activists propose all Swiss nationals should be entitled to

This public privilege has been exercised to near exhaustion in recent months, however, with many citizens expressing concern at what appears to be a self-perpetuating system of income inequality in Switzerland. While, at first glance, this particular niggle appears altogether absent from the world’s second-richest people, Switzerland is without a minimum wage law and the country’s top one percent lay claim to over a third of the nation’s wealth.

This sickly state of affairs has riled what has historically stood as a predominantly middle-class population, which has long averted the crippling high and low ends of the spectrum. Contrast the agricultural wealth of years gone by with today’s 366 households worth more than $100m and a land that plays host to 10 percent of the world’s billionaires, and you begin to share some sympathy with the largely disillusioned population.

Signing up: 130,000 signatures and counting
Resident corporate entities such as Nestlé, Novartis and UBS are customarily chastised by the masses for implementing a get-rich-quick scheme of doing business. This all too often stinks of corruption and conflicts with Switzerland’s longstanding sense of equality.


[P]rovided at least 100,000 nationals sign up to a single idea, public proposals can be turned to referendum

Switzerland’s popular initiative system has prevented the wealth gap from widening further still. Swiss grassroots activists collected more than 130,000 signatures from people who agreed every Swiss national should be given an unconditional CHF2,500 (approximately €2,032) a month – otherwise termed an unconditional basic income.

If the motion were to pass then a basic income would serve as a system of social security. Swiss nationals would receive a staple monthly income on top of any salary they are earning and irrespective of their current employment status. At the rate of CHF2,500, a basic income system would drain a third of Switzerland’s overall GDP, strip the clout of national government and afford even more power to the people on how they wish their money to be spent.

Preventing poverty
The beginnings of the system can be seen with the emergence of a negative income tax, which was proposed as far back as the 60s by libertarian-conservative economist Milton Friedman and was then without the ‘unconditional’ tag. Although the proposal was found to be entirely unfeasible and deemed unworkable by politicians, motions to implement a similar system have gained ground in recent months as the existing welfare framework has come under renewed scrutiny.

The Basic Income Initiative, a European organisation seeking one million signatures from EU residents in order to bring the system to ballot, writes: “As a result of current employment patterns and inadequate income maintenance systems (conditional, means-tested, not high enough), we regard the introduction of the unconditional basic income essential in order to guarantee fundamental rights, especially a life in dignity, as set forth in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. Above all, the unconditional basic income will help to prevent poverty and grant freedom to each individual, to determine his or her own life, and strengthen the participation of all in society.”


Proponents of basic income draw attention to the costs of welfare administration

Vast swathes of cash are funnelled towards alleviation of poverty in Europe, yet the sad fact is it remains a constant blight on communities and economies throughout the region. Proponents of basic income draw attention to the costs of welfare administration. They believe cutting out the middlemen could, in large part, produce enough money to introduce a basic income and prevent the population from falling into desperate circumstances.

“It would simplify all current social security systems – making them far cheaper to administer, easier to understand, less prone to error, bureaucratic capriciousness and fraud,” says Barb Jacobson of the European Initiative for Basic Income.

The sheer amount of money proposed as part of the Swiss initiative only serves to underline the radicalness of the idea and what a huge change it would be. Granted, basic income may well be the only sure-fire way to prevent a discrepancy between those who have and those who have not, but the system is foreign to ruling political parties and has its complications.

More money, more problems
The overriding criticism of basic income is that it could actually act as a disincentive to work. Moreover, certain parties claim that giving money to people without the guarantee they will contribute to the economy is morally objectionable.

In response to these criticisms, various experiments have demonstrated that, far from disincentivising work, basic income can actually boost productivity. The so-called ‘Mincome Programme’ ran from 1974 to 1979 and saw the system implemented in Dauphin, Manitoba in order to ascertain whether or not guaranteed income would inhibit productivity. The results proved the only two groups whose work rate dropped by a significant degree were new mothers, who spent more time with their children, and teenagers, who largely dedicated more time to studies and further education.


Regardless of the pros and cons, basic income is unlikely to pass in Switzerland

“Basic income preserves incentives to work, because additional income will always increase one’s resources, and it can fund the training, relocation, or other investments that make work possible,” says Almaz Zelleke, Secretary-Treasurer of the Basic Income Earth Network. “Basic income increases freedom at all levels of society, freeing some to work less and devote themselves to non-remunerative pursuits, others to become entrepreneurs or artists. In Europe in particular, it simplifies the system of income support that already exists, freeing recipients from justifying their need to the gatekeepers, particularly for benefits that require proof of active job seeking.”

Regardless of the pros and cons, basic income is unlikely to pass in Switzerland. This is not to say the work done on this front will be without consequence. The very fact the idea has made it to referendum is a credit to Switzerland’s political system and the egalitarian initiatives it so often inspires.

Irrespective of the outcome of the referendum, the circumstances surrounding the proceedings to this point highlight the openness of Switzerland’s political system and demonstrate to neighbouring European nations that there are alternative models of governance worth considering.
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

Milton Friedman explaining negative income tax, as a means to achieve unconditional basic income for everybody:

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More good links
Simple Minded

Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:SM, me reply was lost. :evil:

In short: nothing to worry about. People can implement/try this if they democratically choose to do so. I have no doubt it will not be in the USA for starters. Too many people dogmatically entrenched and brainwashed into fixed grooves and democracy more dead than alive it seems to me.

I might support the idea to implement this in the Netherlands. In fact there already exists "basic income" here in the sense that nobody can fall below a certain social minimum, so we can afford it. The change to

1) a real unconditional basic income system, in combination with
2) a radically simplified and reformed tax system (shoving all taxes into one consumer tax makes some sense to me but ain't looked at that with a hawk eye) and
3) a constitutional obligation for any govt to stay out of deficit, and
4) reform of the financial industry where a similar protection once provided by Glass-Steagall is restored...

...is not TOO much asked I think. :P But some pain will be there for those with a serious vested interest in how things operate at the moment. Which is where the problem arises as far as I can see. Not so much what guns are aimed at what heads if basic income would be implemented politically (if most people of a democratic nation state think it'll work and is good for everybody.. why not try it out? simpzzz az that)... but the guns that are pointing at heads, yours and mine, already. It is not too difficult to see, when you look at my 1)2)3)4)... whose guns that are.
no problem mate!

The Netherlands might be a small enough petrie dish for the culture to thrive in. The smaller, the more homogeneous, the community, the higher the probability of success. Whenever people know each other's first names, co-operation seems to thrive. Imposed by DC or Brussels, it will be stillborn. Check out big cities in the US for microcosms of the implementation of the national solution! :o

"Ordered freedom flourishes in small communities, the little platoons we belong to in society which enrich our lives and humanize our relations with one another."

the gist of our discussion is lost in the details of ideology vs. administration.

Check out Eric Hoffer's book The True Believer,
or Nancy Pelosi's premonition "We have to pass it to see what is in it",
or Obama's "If you like your health insurance, you can keep your health insurance... PERIOD!"
for a sneak preview!

The ideologue wants to talk about wall paint shades on the forth floor.....I'm asking about footer dimensions and materials.
The ideologue replies with comments about drapes styles and colors and how the building will be powered by green energy, I repeat my footer questions and ask about building costs per square foot.
They question my intentions, my morality, and ask if my parents were related before they were married!
I think "Thankfully, these oblivious MFers aren't even more involved in running my life!" ;)
They shift the conversation to an area in which they feel expert...... Man Made Global Warming! :)

Not sure what parents and grandparents are like in your neck of the woods, but here in Merika, if Joe Administrator tells Mommy & Daddy, or Gramma & Grandpa, they can't spend the money they have earned and saved to give their kids an advantage or to get a smile out of the grandkids.......

Joe better be packing a tazer, some pepper spray, and wearing a cup! Mommy/Daddy/Gramma/Grandpa will be only too happy to explain their vested interests to Joe and ensure Joe shares their pain! ;)

The left/right/Liberals/Conservatives/ruralites/urbanites will be the least of Joe's concerns. :)
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Simple Minded wrote: no problem mate!

The Netherlands might be a small enough petrie dish for the culture to thrive in. The smaller, the more homogeneous, the community, the higher the probability of success. Whenever people know each other's first names, co-operation seems to thrive.
Actually, one of the great failures of collectivism was the original pilgrims to America who nearly starved to death under the Parodite schemes. Can't think of a smaller, more homogenous name knowing co-operative, ever.
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Parodite
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

SM, from your last reply it is now clear to me you have not investigated the idea at all.. and just prefer repeating relativistic-nihilistic vagueries. You are very lazy lately! ;)

Mr. P. just performed his nice little tap dance on his little square meter. For the umptiesth time.
Simple Minded

Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:SM, from your last reply it is now clear to me you have not investigated the idea at all.. and just prefer repeating relativistic-nihilistic vagueries. You are very lazy lately! ;)
:lol:

You can build theoretical castles in the sky if you like.

You still keep ducking the most basic questions of administration, enforcement, and cost! ;)

Everyone wants to window shop for paint and curtains....... no one wants to shovel the concrete into the footers.

Everyone wants to re-arrange the world, no one wants to admit that they are willing to taze Gramma when she doesn't comply!

Tis always easier to preach than plan or lead by example..... People....... :(

Forgive me Father, for as much as I enjoy your sermons, I view robbing Peter to pay Paul as theft! and I'm too poor to buy dispensations!!! :)
Last edited by Simple Minded on Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Parodite
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

I just refuse do your homework for you, SM :P
A number of questions you have will be answered if you just investigate. Criticisms, doubts from that point on are welcome and can be discussed in more detail. To my own estimate I'm halfway the investigation so nothing truly conclusive. But I'm not discussing this with people who decide after 2% thought alias "investigation" they already know what the good-bad-ugly of such an idea is.
Simple Minded

Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:I just refuse do your homework for you, SM :P
A number of questions you have will be answered if you just investigate. Criticisms, doubts from that point on are welcome and can be discussed in more detail. To my own estimate I'm halfway the investigation so nothing truly conclusive. But I'm not discussing this with people who decide after 2% thought alias "investigation" they already know what the good-bad-ugly of such an idea is.
simple questions my friend, yet you project intent... :D
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Parodite
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:I just refuse do your homework for you, SM :P
A number of questions you have will be answered if you just investigate. Criticisms, doubts from that point on are welcome and can be discussed in more detail. To my own estimate I'm halfway the investigation so nothing truly conclusive. But I'm not discussing this with people who decide after 2% thought alias "investigation" they already know what the good-bad-ugly of such an idea is.
simple questions my friend,
Yep! So do your homework and they will be answered much faster than you think.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

parodite, I just dance where the music is playing. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Parodite
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Parodite »

Mr. Perfect wrote:parodite, I just dance where the music is playing. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
Not hating either Mr P.

Btw how is Milton Friedman doing with his negative income tax lately? There is a nice bebop funky swing going on there wouldn't you say? I always start listening when people like him start talking.

2LZup9r-29Q
noddy
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by noddy »

rather than basic income for everyone how about a variation, how bout tax payers get to choose which things their money goes toward.

each component of government spending is itemised on the form and whilst you still must give the tax money no matter what you can spread it amongst the services you actually believe in and dont get forced into paying for alien agendas from our suspiciously non democratic oligarch options.
ultracrepidarian
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Basic income for everyone?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

If you give me a $1, tax free, I will find a way to make $1.10 even if I must pay tax on that dime.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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