The Quran online

[Parodite]

With a thanks to Nonc H. who provided the link elsewhere:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

After the opening Surah 1. which a is a formality, comes Surah 2. The Cow

Contrary to Ibi's Voodoo claim that I didn't read anything of the Quran, I did read the first couple of Surah's a year ago or so, deciding after 30 pages that this is nothing but coercive fear mongering brimstone Desert Dad Patriarchic Alter-Ego God talking again. Do as you are told, believe as you are told.. follow Allah's orders... and you will be fine. Turn your back on Him, mock the believer.. and you surely will be consumed by the fire that Allah has prepared for you. And all the while of course.. this Allah being like a conceptual character in a play.. invisible to the human eye and never being sure if it just a figment of the human mind, i.e. of desert poets long past whose brains just got a bit overheated.

It might also be a matter of taste of course. Perhaps how you read this type of desert poetry in the first place. As a human expression, style and literary format... or as the literal word of Allah that magically travelled through the ether inspiring, dictating the poetic bards that wrote it down, unalterable for all time coming.

[Ibrahim]

If you read the No.1 source of Islam, the Koran, you will notice that it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

It will be seen by all that the first and second suras do not conform to these claims above, as I initially pointed out. There is no debate here.

In printed form the first sura is about half a page, the second some 25 pages. I took "begins" to mean the first several pages, but there is little regarding "hysterical horrors" in the second sura at all.

[Parodite]

I took "begins" to mean the first several pages, but there is little regarding "hysterical horrors" in the second sura at all.

Perhaps if you read it as poetry not having any literal meaning. Any real person or entity talking like : "Do this, do that as I told you... OR... there you go be damned and consumed by the fire I prepared for you... after I destroyed your ability to see and hear making you stumble around like a madman without direction."... should give reason for concern. It suggests a manipulative, controlling and dictatorial mindset.

[Ibrahim]

Specific cited quotations are necessary to support claims.

[Parodite]

Specific cited quotations are necessary to support claims.

The entire Surah 2. supports it. People can read and make up their own mind. It is a a threat-fest against not-believing, disobedience and the fate of the non-believer is sealed.

[Ibrahim]

The entire Surah 2. supports it.

The "entire second sura" does not support this claim, as anyone reading it will see:

you will notice that it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Islam, Quran, is a perfect religion, book, mindset, way of life, and and and

for people of Arabia

problem arises, when people of Arabia, mistakenly, think, others too are like people of Arabia .. or, if they are not, they can be made like people of Arabia with power of sword

fortunately

those days are behind humanity

humanity now longs Zoroastrianism : good thoughts, good words, and good deeds


.

[Parodite]

You already flunk at the very beginning. There is this character introduced and put on stage called Allah, who claimes to be the Sole ruler and Creator of this Universe.. you, me.. everything in it. It is explains that he is Boss, can make and break you at will.

Now if you adhere merely poetic value to this megalomanic character, perhaps as some archetype.. no quarrels. He might just be a bit more interesting than Fred Flintstone, albeit still a lot less pleasant kind of fellow.

So there is this new guy on the block, called Allah. Who is he?

Surah 1. The Opening

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

First sign of megalomania

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

The first implicit warning...

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Thusly describing what will follow in the coming Surah's: distinguishing between the good guys and the bad guys. Bi-polarism. The belovedth ones that follow the path of Allah towards righteousness and receive an abundance of Grace... versus the poor suckers, the scum, those that were led astray upon whome Allah will unleash the wrath He organised for them.

Now I hold it for possible there are people to whom such a character makes perfect sense. Or maybe not makes perfect sense but has to be believed to be real for it is not man who makes up a God to his own taste. In total despair maybe think that such a God is very unlikely, not human friendly on the contrary i.e. full of wrath and desire to punish or reward on his terms only... but nevertheless are so intimidated by the image of such psychopathic God that you'd better believe in it just in case it al is true.

This black-versus-white approach is always a certain indicator of violence being just around the corner.

[Ibrahim]

Again, this is rather desperate stretching to meet the original, discredited claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

Already we see the goalposts moving around. It's a bit like claiming that Moby Dick starts with a hysterical description of the horrors of the chowder shop.

[Hans Bulvai]

Yup. Real scary.
Did you really read this?

42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

43. And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).

44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

45. Nay, seek ((Allah)'s) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

46. Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.

47. Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).

48. Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).

49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.

62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

[monster_gardener]

If you read the No.1 source of Islam, the Koran, you will notice that it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

It will be seen by all that the first and second suras do not conform to these claims above, as I initially pointed out. There is no debate here.

In printed form the first sura is about half a page, the second some 25 pages. I took "begins" to mean the first several pages, but there is little regarding "hysterical horrors" in the second sura at all.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

I think this is what or part of what* Parodite, refers to............ It is bad and IIRC the rest of the Koran and Hadith just keep loading it on...............


But to quote Bart Simpson,

Don't have a Cow, Man!




And to be fair, Revelations in the New Testament is similar as are many other parts of the New Testament...........

The Tanakh/OT by itself is a lot fuzzier on the subject though other Jewish writing can get pretty intense.

One version I have heard is max time in Jewish Hell is 1 year (though I imagine it probably feels like forever until it is over).
And some Jewish writers claim that some** do not get out..........

Buddhist hells can be similar, everyone is supposed to get "saved" eventually though it can take kalpas (4.32 billion years) for some of the slower ones unless they get some help from the Bodhisattvas Jizo, Kwannon etc.. or Myoos Fudo, Aizen etc.....

So maybe the few Buddhist writers who say Hell is forever are just being a little hyperbolic *

*Reminds me a bit of Hell in "Dragon BallZ": In the North American broadcast version, Hell was known as HFIL. This acronym was stated to stand for Home For Infinite Losers . The censorship in this case being somewhat funny




vs.




*There may be more bad cud or is it crud rumen around in the Cow's belly but it's late and I was just scanning quickly.........

**Including Jesus and presumably big timer losers like Dreadful aDolph etc...........

[Nonc Hilaire]

With a thanks to Nonc H. who provided the link elsewhere:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Just to be clear, I didn't post this to encourage polemics. I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran, but live by tradition and what they are told. The true meaning of the Qu'ran is irrelevant to people who deliberately pick out whatever supports their pre-existing belief system, no matter what their orientation.

[Parodite]

Again, this is rather desperate stretching to meet the original, discredited claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

Already we see the goalposts moving around. It's a bit like claiming that Moby Dick starts with a hysterical description of the horrors of the chowder shop.

Nonsense. If you want to be taken seriously, do respond to why I, included my cup of tea, would come to conclude that INDEED the Koran begins with a hysteric exposition of what happens to the non-believer. To make it easier for you, I'll repeat:

So there is this new guy on the block, called Allah. Who is he?

Surah 1. The Opening

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

First sign of megalomania

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

The first implicit warning...

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Thusly describing what will follow in the coming Surah's: distinguishing between the good guys and the bad guys. Bi-polarism. The belovedth ones that follow the path of Allah towards righteousness and receive an abundance of Grace... versus the poor suckers, the scum, those that were led astray upon whome Allah will unleash the wrath He organised for them.

==================

In short, live how the Big Boss tells you to. Follow his orders so you will be blessed and not receive the WRATH Allah will otherwise release on you.

Replace Allah with any Kim Yong Il type dictator and you won't notice the difference. Worship, show respect and love, do as you are told, obey.. and thusly avoid Receiving the Wrath of the Great Leader. A lot of romantic carrot always with an IMMEDIATE reminder, a very brutal stick to close the ranks.

As said, Mr Goalpost, I hold it for possible that people find such a character loveable, admirable and actually a good candidate to describe the nature of a God Almighty. As an enthusiast your own character resembles Wrathful Allah.

[Parodite]

With a thanks to Nonc H. who provided the link elsewhere:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Just to be clear, I didn't post this to encourage polemics. I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran, but live by tradition and what they are told. The true meaning of the Qu'ran is irrelevant to people who deliberately pick out whatever supports their pre-existing belief system, no matter what their orientation.

The problem usually is "the true meaning" to begin with. Does the Quran have a "the true meaning"? I think the belief that there exists a the true meaning of a book... is the beginning of all trouble.

[Parodite]

Religious Candy and Carrots in the Quran.

As I showed in Surah 1. the nature of Allah is that of a Kim Yon Il that demands praise, worship, obedience where those that follow his instructions will harvest all the goodies...but those that are lead astray and turned their backs... will harvest Allah's wrath instead.

The black-white distinction between good-bad, believer non-believer, receive life love and candy versus hell, fire and wrath.. and the claim of divine authority... are the fingerprint and core ingredients to capture and keep the believer in check and within the fences, and those that refuse to obey and behave conform the rules set forth by The Great Leader... be kicked out and promised to suffer tremendously.

I'll post Surah 2. the first 50 versus, where the candy is colored green, and the sticks colored red. Words that claim authority... are colored blue.

As you can see, candy, sticks and claims of authority flow consistently all throughout the text of Surah 2., as one expects from a Desert Brimstone God that claims all power, demands worship, obedience... promises blessings and life to all that obey.. but keeps reminding the flock the turning your back means..misery, fire, suffering and death.

Note: to me this just sounds like a father, tribal elder or patriarch who wants to keep his extended family together and in check to survive in difficult desert circumstances. Womens rigts, freedom of speech let alone democracy simply did not enhance their chances of survival yet.



Surah 2. 1-50



1. A.L.M.

2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

8. Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

11. When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

12. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

13. When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

14. When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

15. Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).

16. These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,

17. Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

18. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

19. Or (another similitude) is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky: In it are zones of darkness, and thunder and lightning: They press their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap, the while they are in terror of death. But Allah is ever round the rejecters of Faith!

20. The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.

21. O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;

22. Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).

23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

26. Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

27. Those who break Allah.s Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.

28. How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

29. It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

40. O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.

41. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

43. And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).

44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

45. Nay, seek ((Allah)'s) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

46. Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.

47. Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).

48. Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).

49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.

[Typhoon]

Again, this is rather desperate stretching to meet the original, discredited claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

Already we see the goalposts moving around. It's a bit like claiming that Moby Dick starts with a hysterical description of the horrors of the chowder shop.

Nonsense. If you want to be taken seriously, do respond to why I, included my cup of tea, would come to conclude that INDEED the Koran begins with a hysteric exposition of what happens to the non-believer. To make it easier for you, I'll repeat:

So there is this new guy on the block, called Allah. Who is he?

Surah 1. The Opening

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

First sign of megalomania

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

The first implicit warning...

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Thusly describing what will follow in the coming Surah's: distinguishing between the good guys and the bad guys. Bi-polarism. The belovedth ones that follow the path of Allah towards righteousness and receive an abundance of Grace... versus the poor suckers, the scum, those that were led astray upon whome Allah will unleash the wrath He organised for them.

==================

In short, live how the Big Boss tells you to. Follow his orders so you will be blessed and not receive the WRATH Allah will otherwise release on you.

Replace Allah with any Kim Yong Il type dictator and you won't notice the difference. Worship, show respect and love, do as you are told, obey.. and thusly avoid Receiving the Wrath of the Great Leader. A lot of romantic carrot always with an IMMEDIATE reminder, a very brutal stick to close the ranks.

As said, Mr Goalpost, I hold it for possible that people find such a character loveable, admirable and actually a good candidate to describe the nature of a God Almighty. As an enthusiast your own character resembles Wrathful Allah.

People who pray in glass houses of worship should probably reflect before taking up slingshooting other such places . . .

I'm always bemused by the level of insecurity and vindictiveness displayed by the supposedly onmipotent god of all three ME religions:

Exodus 20:1-17
Bible: American Standard Version (ASV)
Exodus 20

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

6 and showing loving kindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

So if you do not worship me, I'm going to punish your family line for four generations.

And so on. Keyser Söze is a boy scout by comparison.

It is verse 12 before the Dude finally gets around to prescribing basic ethics.

The OT is full of threats and punishments from the Dude and prescriptions for conduct that if done today would properly lead arrest and imprisonment for life or execution.

Nothing unique about the Qur'an in this regard.

All cultures pick, choose, and reinterpret their religious texts to justify their actions.

Your argument is empty.

[Parodite]

Typhoon, I agree totally about the OT. You will find the same brimstone God there. Where do I claim that it is only the Quran where this character shows his face? You will even find him in the NT, where his Wrath still roles over the earth at Judgment day and kill off all the unblievers. But this thread happens to be about the Quran. How sad.

Will you now also remind all other compratriots here who happen to focus on something that stinks, that there are also many other places that stink and that unless they refer to that fact, preferably with quotations and links... their arguments and criticisms on the subject of their choice is rendered void? I estimated your intelligence much higher.

I really have no idea why you think my focus in this thread on the Quran is an effort to make the Quran or Islam look like the only sick kid in town. It simply isn't true. I respond to a challeng launched at me by Ibrahim. I suppose that your Beautiful Women mania does not implicate a hidden massage that only Women can be beautiful?

Note: I have no idea how Pastenata did it: genuflect up all ye'r brains so much that even the Col is losing sight. Amazing.

[Typhoon]

The point is that it is local cultural beliefs and practices that matter. Religious texts are a prop.

[Parodite]

The point is that it is local cultural beliefs and practices that matter. Religious texts are a prop.

What is a prop?

In any case, I do think that the content and style of books that are considered Holy.. word by word from a divine entity, matter a lot. Of course it is not the only denominator, I never said that. But people who sit with their noses and mind many hours per week in one and the same book that they consider a divine revelation.. are very much impacted by that habit. If you want to understand why they behave the way they do, the content of that book matters a lot. Ideological fanatics often use books as a standard and tool for brainwashing.

[Ibrahim]

Religious Candy and Carrots in the Quran.

As I showed in Surah 1. the nature of Allah is that of a Kim Yon Il that demands praise, worship, obedience where those that follow his instructions will harvest all the goodies...but those that are lead astray and turned their backs... will harvest Allah's wrath instead.

The black-white distinction between good-bad, believer non-believer, receive life love and candy versus hell, fire and wrath.. and the claim of divine authority... are the fingerprint and core ingredients to capture and keep the believer in check and within the fences, and those that refuse to obey and behave conform the rules set forth by The Great Leader... be kicked out and promised to suffer tremendously.

None of this supports your original, false claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

You are now making new, different claims to replace your false, discredited claim and pretend like you know what you were talking about right from the start when in fact this is obviously not the case.

[Ibrahim]

The point is that it is local cultural beliefs and practices that matter. Religious texts are a prop.

In this instance all the text is saying is that this religion is the right religion, and that some people won't recognize that, and that those people are wrong and will lose out in the long run. It's hard to think of any religion doesn't make this claim. The Bible is repetitive on the point, I've read many a long-winded description of torturous hells in Buddhist sutras, etc.

For some reason I'm reminded of Hitchens or Pat Condell, who profess to be opposed to religion generally, but spent/spend most of their time trashing one religion in particular, along with cultural practices and politics unrelated to the religion.



But the original discredited claim that Rhap made is clearly false in light of the text, if the only purpose to the thread was to defend it then this thread is an obvious failure.

[Ibrahim]

Again, this is rather desperate stretching to meet the original, discredited claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

Already we see the goalposts moving around. It's a bit like claiming that Moby Dick starts with a hysterical description of the horrors of the chowder shop.

Nonsense. If you want to be taken seriously, do respond to why I, included my cup of tea, would come to conclude that INDEED the Koran begins with a hysteric exposition of what happens to the non-believer.

That is obviously not the case. You had no idea how the Quran began when you made your initial false claim, and now you are desperately trying to impose a clearly incorrect and biased interpretation on the text in order to cover your your initial ignorance. In short, you are lying to save face.


The fact that you combine your defense of a discredited and false statement with attempts at condescension is merely amusing. You are not the authority here, as everyone can plainly see.

[Parodite]

Religious Candy and Carrots in the Quran.

As I showed in Surah 1. the nature of Allah is that of a Kim Yon Il that demands praise, worship, obedience where those that follow his instructions will harvest all the goodies...but those that are lead astray and turned their backs... will harvest Allah's wrath instead.

The black-white distinction between good-bad, believer non-believer, receive life love and candy versus hell, fire and wrath.. and the claim of divine authority... are the fingerprint and core ingredients to capture and keep the believer in check and within the fences, and those that refuse to obey and behave conform the rules set forth by The Great Leader... be kicked out and promised to suffer tremendously.

None of this supports your original, false claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

I understand Allah's wrath it not a horrible thing in your view.

wrath [rɒθ]
n
1. angry, violent, or stern indignation
2. divine vengeance or retribution
3. Archaic a fit of anger or an act resulting from anger

Surah 1 and 2 expose Allah as a dominering prick that like Kim Yon Il demands adoration, worship and promising bliss to those that obey.. and his wrath for those that go astray rejecting faith and his authority. I can see though why you chose this Allah as your God. You respond prickly and wrathfully in kind.

[Parodite]

The point is that it is local cultural beliefs and practices that matter. Religious texts are a prop.

In this instance all the text is saying is that this religion is the right religion, and that some people won't recognize that, and that those people are wrong and will lose out in the long run. It's hard to think of any religion doesn't make this claim. The Bible is repetitive on the point, I've read many a long-winded description of torturous hells in Buddhist sutras, etc.

The brimstone desert God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is indeed one and the same character. The Top Dog that ultimately rules the Universe, life, our lives. As much as he can be cuddly romantic with his beloved children in faith and shower them with bliss... so can he morph into a vengeful God sending plagues, punishments of sorts over those deservant of such; now, tomorrow or in any distant future. Clearly a threat meant to scare people into submission.

Your modern and softened way to put it: "[..] all the text is saying is that this religion is the right religion, and that some people won't recognize that, and that those people are wrong and will lose out in the long run" is of course meaningless. All that Hitler was saying was that those not co-operating will not last either.

For some reason I'm reminded of Hitchens or Pat Condell, who profess to be opposed to religion generally, but spent/spend most of their time trashing one religion in particular, along with cultural practices and politics unrelated to the religion.

Christianity and religion in general have been grilled over and over already for centuries here and its powers reduced to that of an honorable club/congregation of people doing what they like to do in their private clubhouses in a church-state separated society. Islamic cultures and societies have only just begun this transition. It is good that some people help speed up the process.

[Ibrahim]

Religious Candy and Carrots in the Quran.

As I showed in Surah 1. the nature of Allah is that of a Kim Yon Il that demands praise, worship, obedience where those that follow his instructions will harvest all the goodies...but those that are lead astray and turned their backs... will harvest Allah's wrath instead.

The black-white distinction between good-bad, believer non-believer, receive life love and candy versus hell, fire and wrath.. and the claim of divine authority... are the fingerprint and core ingredients to capture and keep the believer in check and within the fences, and those that refuse to obey and behave conform the rules set forth by The Great Leader... be kicked out and promised to suffer tremendously.

None of this supports your original, false claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

I understand Allah's wrath it not a horrible thing in your view.

Mere ad hominem. The point is simply that the portions of the text you are insistent on quoting don't say what you think they say. Quite obviously.

I can see though why you chose this Allah as your God. You respond prickly and wrathfully in kind.

More ad hominem. I'm simply pointing out that your initial claim was false, and your subsequent biased interpretations trying to justify it are both false and dishonest.


You didn't know what you were talking about when you made your initial false claim, and even with moving goalposts and personal insults you clearly don't know what you are talking about now.