Libya after Gaddafi

[Ibrahim]

Arabs need a strongman. Fair but for sure iron fisted. The Prophet comes to mind.
None of those recently overthrown, or soon to be, fit that bill. None coming to take their place will either.
100's of years of living under someone's boot will make sure of that. Meaningful change comes from within. They are not ready. And the world is not ready for it either it seems.

BTW, I do garden but had to hang my shears last summer due to the extreme drought we had 'round here. My yard looks like lavender. I kept my roses and flowers alive but the grass is gone. Hope this summer is not the same as last.

I know this is late, dreadfully late, but...but ........(guffawing)...

BWHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy moly mother of moly , the day when Hans Bulvai turned into a Arabaphobe, Democracy Skeptic/Hater Clone from a chip off the old block Spenglerman has finally arrived ! You know, one thing I can at least love about the Arab Revolutions, despite all the ceaseless anxieties, heartburns, and horrors they've caused is that they served as a long overdue stick of stoopid that have lobotomized both the far left and the far right equally and successfully, exposing their gaping and rotting irrationality, hypocrisy, and underling derangement for all to see. On one hand you have the anti-American/IsraHeil crowds such as Pepe Escobar and Global Research who backed Mubarak's overthrow to the hilt despite the MuzBro's ascendancy then all of a sudden scream like banshees about the incoming Caliphate in Syria post Assad, or when they pilloried the West for not intervening in Bahrain due Blood for Oil geopolitics and then foam at the mouth when NATO finally launched airstrikes against Queerdafi by saying their intervening because those satanc Black Gold again. And on the other hand you have the sanguine, Neo-Imperialist Right a la Charles Krauthammer, Newt Gingrich, Weekly Standard, etc. who only 8 years were the most ostensible champions of Arab Democracy all of a sudden backing Mubarak to the hilt until the very end, slamming Obamao about the illegal or incompetent or immoral Libyan War, and then screaming at him for not persecuting another Operation Syrian Freedom campaign.

And in terms of ye old Spengler forumites, you've got Dan, the ever vicious Islamophobe and Arab hater suddenly undergoing a road to Damascus treatment and coming out to battle ellens and Pastanutso on defending the Arab Revolution. You have Uche Africanus who just 2-3 years ago feared not to ridicule all the petty and backwards Arab tyrants all of sudden proclaiming the innocence of the poor mizunderstood Gadafy, stalwart defender of black Pan-Africana. Of course you have Spenglerman who pauses once in a while to ponder about whether it is really wise for the West to be so entangled in this region, and then like clockwork go right on about bombing Iran to ensure Western hegemony in the region . Last but not least you have Hans Bulvai, the once perennial opponent of all things Spengler in terms of Islam, Arabs, and the MidEast now proclaiming the Queerdafir regime to be more moral than its new "Islamist" replacement and that Arabs need more jackboots on their asses in order to behave. Well holy lavender, I knew things can go a little bit crazy now and then but even I in most prurient imaginations could never have envisioned Hans detonating all of his previous arguments and moral credibility tut tutting about Abu Ghraib, evil dicktators, IsraHeil, Blood for Oil and Western skullduggeries all over the years into worthless piles of slag in just one brief post. I truly had to triple see it just to believe it.

Anyways I really really love this stuff. Haven't been this entertained by such an ideological collapse across such a broad spectrum in so long a time. Its clear everyone's flapping around like headless chickens while being wagged around by some levitating dog's tail.

And I just saw this.

My stand about evil dicktators (nice one remembering) etc... has not changed.
You either don't understand or don't want to understand.

It's very easy to understand: your position is nothing bus irrational racist bias against Arabs, and a cowardly back-handed support for dictatorships.

I only see more dictatorships coming down the pike. This has nothing to do with what the people want or what they sacrifice in order to attain what it is they want.
The Middle East is headed for more division than ever before. If a strong man is what's needed to hold it together then so be it. Fair but strong.

You are a coward, then. A born slave.

Wake me up when the new, better Middle East is upon us

A coward's pathetic justification for inaction. Because you don't think utopia is an immediate possibility you think everybody should just submit their necks to the yoke and let a dictator rule them. Of course this moral cowardice is married to racism, because you wouldn't advocate this for any or all groups, just Arabs who cannot hope for better due to their skin tone of phonetics or whatever. Pathetic.

Don't go comparing me to scum when the miseries of all those mentioned above I have tasted and lived.

Assuming you aren't lying and you've seen atrocities committed by dictatorships and yet you still carry water of these regimes using these pathetic justifications then there are no words to describe how low you are as a human being.

20,000 Syrians dead. Yeah, I am the one cheerleading for more dead.

Ah, coward. Those people are fighting/dying to overthrow a dictatorship and reclaim their own self-determination and you are dismissing that as a pointless waste of time because they can hope for no better. You are dismissing their deaths, and claiming that they deserve no better than the tyrants boots. And yet they are proving you wrong, and exposing your cowardly racist garbage for what it is, just in the attempt.

[Hans Bulvai]

blah blah blah.

You really are a lawyer.
I thought you were just making it up.

coward... blah blah blah

Calling people names across domains and many servers.
But i am sure you are the bad ass you envision yourself to be.

Go finish your Raki.

[Ibrahim]

Maybe you're right and I should have taken the heroic stance of supporting dictatorship.

[Hans Bulvai]

Maybe you're right and I should have taken the heroic stance of supporting dictatorship.

Echo chamber; from a fool no less.

Where is the ignore button.

[monster_gardener]

Yawn...
I am sure it will look like Switzerland in the next 10 years.
Let's just hope it does not look like Italy today; or Greece for that matter.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2 ... 96606.html

Libya army deployed to Kufra after deadly clashes: chief
Thursday, 23 February 2012


Tripoli

Libya’s army chief on Thursday said troops were preparing to enter the southeastern desert city of Kufra, to secure the area that has been at the heart of deadly ethnic clashes.

“Units of the national army are at the airport of Kufra and will enter the city to secure it,” Yussef al-Mangush told reporters in Tripoli, adding that the situation had been calm since Wednesday.

Meanwhile, the United Nations special envoy to Libya, Ian Marti, said humanitarian agencies “were on their way to Kufra now to assess the situation there.”

At least 113 people from the Toubu tribe and another 23 from the Zwai tribe have been killed since clashes erupted on Feb. 12, according to tribal sources.

Mangush said he was unable to give an “exact toll.”

Martin faced the same problem: “At this stage we cannot offer an independent assessment of the scale of casualties.”

“But it is clear that many people have lost their lives and that there are urgent needs for medical attention to a substantive number of people who have been seriously wounded,” he said.

Kufra, a town of about 40,000, is located in a triangle where the borders of Egypt, Chad and Sudan join.

The Toubu, who are dark-skinned and present in southeastern Libya as well as in Chad, Sudan and Niger, faced discrimination under the regime of former Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi.

The U.N. envoy excluded the possibility of an international intervention

“Obviously, because it is happening in a border area, there may be regional concerns. But I believe that the Libyan national authorities are seeking to do what they should, which is try to mediate an end to the conflict.”

“At this stage, the only United Nations involvement is humanitarian,” Martin added.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Hans.

Yawn...

Boredom can be good........... Often.......... Not always............ But sometimes.........

Learn to meditate........ Pray............... Or garden...........

Worked wonderfully for Diocletian the wise pagan Roman Emperor who retired.........

Also for Candide...........

Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times"

I am sure it will look like Switzerland in the next 10 years.

That would be a wonderful miracle to pray & garden for.........

Grow/ferment your own: both food and otherwise so that you will not be as vulnerable when the Banksters speculate food to high prices

Or you/it won't care/matter as much anyway

Need to try that with motor fuel too............. Banksters are busy there right now.........

A Canton for each tribe/religious division maybe..........


The Swiss had their problems before they became the Apple & Cheese of Europe........

Not Tell ing you anything you don't know already.......

Arabs need a strongman. Fair but for sure iron fisted. The Prophet comes to mind.

None of those recently overthrown, or soon to be, fit that bill. None coming to take their place will either.
100's of years of living under someone's boot will make sure of that. Meaningful change comes from within. They are not ready. And the world is not ready for it either it seems.

BTW, I do garden but had to hang my shears last summer due to the extreme drought we had 'round here. My yard looks like lavender. I kept my roses and flowers alive but the grass is gone. Hope this summer is not the same as last.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Hans.

BTW, I do garden but had to hang my shears last summer due to the extreme drought we had 'round here. My yard looks like lavender. I kept my roses and flowers alive but the grass is gone. Hope this summer is not the same as last.

Agreed.........

2011 was not a great year for tomatoes but I did OK..... not great.......

Perhaps because I used mulch. Mulch can help retain soil moisture.

You might also want to try "water crystals" especially in containers........

Water Absorbing Polymers In Containers

Growing plants in containers is fun and very satisfying. However, one of the drawbacks of a container garden is that it needs watering more often than does the soil in garden beds. In fact, a container planting can dry out very quickly causing great stress on the plants.

While it is optional, we advise yardeners to include a water absorbing polymer gel with the potting mix when setting up a container garden. These magical crystals will cut your watering needs by one third to one half. You can buy soilless mix with these polymer crystals already included, or you can introduce the polymers yourself as you prepare to plant your container. For details on how these water absorbing polymers work go to Understanding Polymers.

http://yardener.com/YardenersPlantHelpe ... Containers

I do it a bit differently: most at the bottom of the pot..........

What are you planning to grow this year?

Note: I'm planning to do Tomato, Peppers & Herbs as usual......... Have some kale growing now..........

Thank you Very Much again Hans for your posts

Water Absorbing Polymers In Containers

Growing plants in containers is fun and very satisfying. However, one of the drawbacks of a container garden is that it needs watering more often than does the soil in garden beds. In fact, a container planting can dry out very quickly causing great stress on the plants.

While it is optional, we advise yardeners to include a water absorbing polymer gel with the potting mix when setting up a container garden. These magical crystals will cut your watering needs by one third to one half. You can buy soilless mix with these polymer crystals already included, or you can introduce the polymers yourself as you prepare to plant your container. For details on how these water absorbing polymers work go to Understanding Polymers.

http://yardener.com/YardenersPlantHelpe ... Containers

I do it a bit differently: most at the bottom of the pot..........

Water Crystals at the bottom of the pot has proved to be mostly a mistake.....

Can heave the potting soil up and escape out drain holes.

Hope your garden is doing well/better this year.

Have been having some trouble with caterpillars.....

Some like the swallowtails, I save..... take them off the fennel and put on wild carrot/Queen Anne's Lace.........

They are so beautiful






Others are put on dying tomato leaves to find out what butterfly/moth they will become like the black yellow striped ones having some trouble with now....

Have/had one tomato hornworm but when I saw the wasp eggs on it I just left it alone... soon it stopped eating and as of last night was largely eaten.......

Wondering if Penguins are Wasps.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manduca_quinquemaculata

[monster_gardener]

Thank you Very Much for the thread, Hans.

U.S. ambassador dies when Islamists burn consulate in Libya

By Nancy A. Youssef - McClatchy Newspapers

CAIRO — Libya's interior minister said Wednesday that the U.S. Ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, was killed when armed Islamist militants overran the U.S. consulate in Libya’s second largest city, in a day of rage that also struck the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, where demonstrators hauled down the American flag, tore it to pieces and burned it.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned the attack in Benghazi and confirmed the death of an American "State Department officer" in a statement late Tuesday but she did not identify the deceased, say what position he played at the consulate or provide any details of what took place, and there was no immediate confirmation of the interior minister's report.

“We are heartbroken by this terrible loss,” Clinton said. “Our thoughts and prayers are with his family and those who have suffered in this attack.”

Stevens, 52, died of smoke inhalation, officials said. Two other embassy employees died though it was not immediately clear if they were Libyan or American.

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2012/09/11/2437 ... rylink=cpy

The storming of U.S. diplomatic compounds in Benghazi and Cairo, where no one was injured, took place on the 11th anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks but appeared to be sparked by outrage over the release of a movie trailer that conservative Muslims in both countries said denigrated Islam and its holiest figure, Mohammed. Clinton acknowledged that as the likely cause in her statement.

“Some have sought to justify this vicious behavior as a response to inflammatory material posted on the Internet. The United States deplores any intentional effort to denigrate the religious beliefs of others,” she said. “But let me be clear: There is never any justification for violent acts of this kind.”

Backers of the movie, who included Terry Jones, the Florida pastor whose burning of Qurans last year led to days of rioting in Afghanistan, were unapologetic about the role their film may have had in triggering the violence.

“The fact that angry protesters climbed the wall at the U.S. embassy in Cairo today, ripped down the American flag and tore it apart further indicates the lack of respect that Islam has for any other religion, any other flag, any freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of religion,” Jones said in a statement released before the death in Benghazi was confirmed. “It further illustrates that they have no tolerance for anything outside of Mohammad.”

Even without the provocation provided by the film, the violence fit a pattern of growing fundamentalist ferment that has touched many of the countries where governments have fallen in the past 18 months.

That trend has been especially pronounced in Libya, where in recent weeks conservative Islamists have leveled mosques and cemeteries associated with the moderate Sufi strain of Islam, and car bombs have become increasingly frequent in Tripoli, the capital, and Benghazi. In what can only be considered ironic, the United States, which had backed the NATO bombing campaign that helped rebels defeat the government of Moammar Gadhafi last year, has warned its citizens to defer all but essential travel to Libya because of the country’s deteriorating security situation.

The protest in Cairo also came at an ironic moment: The U.S. Embassy has been urging companies to invest in Egypt, saying it is now stable.

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2012/09/11/2437 ... rylink=cpy


Maybe you & Azari were right about Libya etc...

Sounds like we were better off with a mostly house-broken GadDaffi Duck......

I remember being conflicted about it.......... Remembering the Dirty Duck's Dastardly Deeds but also that he seemed to have largely calmed down...........

IIRC the last time something like this happened and an Ambassador was killed was in Trash .....oops I mean Afghanistan in the last century........

Going to have to pray today that I don't develop a full blown Jacksonian rage.............

The urge to smite is great......

Or to just withdraw/expel............ Don't want Uz there or Islamists here.................

Need to get energy independent....... Should be able to CANDU Nuclear...........

But really need to be on/in separate worlds/orbitals............

Meanwhile in WashingToon, District of Criminals..............

I have heard that our mis-leaders have apologized for the film.........

[Milo]

The journalists seem to have fallen down on the job with regards to the movie in question. The movie is called "the Innocence of Muslims" and here is the trailer.

ntgzoE7rU9A

[Marcus]

The journalists seem to have fallen down on the job with regards to the movie in question. The movie is called "the Innocence of Muslims" and here is the trailer.

You're kidding, right? Some wackos supposedly went nuts over that?

If Christians got pissed off over such crap the world would've been a blood-bath long ago.

Get a life, people . . .

[Mr. Perfect]

I believe they made Sarah palin based pornos at one point, I think to be fair Democrats should lay down there defenses for a day or two and let right wingers have their way with them, with guns and whatnot. Just to be fair.

[Marcus]

I believe they made Sarah palin based pornos . .

You "believe" correctly.

[Milo]

My mistake, apparently the below is the full trailer. One can expect its location to be in some flux for the next while!

mjoa3QazVy8

I find it intersting the degree to which stories that mention this movie do not give details, even the movie's name! I imagine they are trying to pander to the censors.

I am trying to locate a copy so that I can support a torrent of it.

[Ibrahim]

The journalists seem to have fallen down on the job with regards to the movie in question. The movie is called "the Innocence of Muslims" and here is the trailer.

You're kidding, right? Some wackos supposedly went nuts over that?

If Christians got pissed off over such crap the world would've been a blood-bath long ago.

Get a life, people . . .

Nobody cares about the movie per se, that's just the excuse. The issue is anti-democratic extremist factions in Libya that are frustration with the election of a moderate President who is also friendly to the US. The overarching strategic reason for the attack is that these extremist factions lost out in the Libyan revolution to democracy.

[Ibrahim]

mjoa3QazVy8

The production quality here is somewhere between "porn" and "random The A-Team episode."

[Mr. Perfect]

TV says youtube is going to ban the video.

[Marcus]

Nobody cares about the movie per se, that's just the excuse. The issue is anti-democratic extremist factions in Libya that are frustration with the election of a moderate President who is also friendly to the US. The overarching strategic reason for the attack is that these extremist factions lost out in the Libyan revolution to democracy.

Excuses don't cut it, do they? Same ol' crap . . . what's the excuse for this? Three-thousand dead, and these people chant for more:

Muslim Extremists in London Burn U.S. Flag During 9/11 Moment of Silence

Muslim radicals have set fire to the U.S. flag while protesting in front of the American embassy in London during a moment of silence being held in memory of the 9/11 victims on the 10th anniversary.

While those at the memorial at Grosvenor Square paused to commemorate the moment the first hijacked plane hit the World Trade Center a decade ago, a group of 100 radicals, including members of Muslims Against Crusades, shouted slurs against the United States.

“USA terrorists,” the group chanted while holding signs of various anti-American slogans.

“You will always face suffering, you will always face humiliation, unless you withdraw your troops from Muslim lands,” said one protestor.

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/musli ... eyKdS10.99

[Ibrahim]

Nobody cares about the movie per se, that's just the excuse. The issue is anti-democratic extremist factions in Libya that are frustration with the election of a moderate President who is also friendly to the US. The overarching strategic reason for the attack is that these extremist factions lost out in the Libyan revolution to democracy.

Excuses don't cut it, do they? Same ol' crap . . . what's the excuse for this? Three-thousand dead, and these people chant for more:

Muslim Extremists in London Burn U.S. Flag During 9/11 Moment of Silence

Muslim radicals have set fire to the U.S. flag while protesting in front of the American embassy in London during a moment of silence being held in memory of the 9/11 victims on the 10th anniversary.

While those at the memorial at Grosvenor Square paused to commemorate the moment the first hijacked plane hit the World Trade Center a decade ago, a group of 100 radicals, including members of Muslims Against Crusades, shouted slurs against the United States.

“USA terrorists,” the group chanted while holding signs of various anti-American slogans.

“You will always face suffering, you will always face humiliation, unless you withdraw your troops from Muslim lands,” said one protestor.

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/musli ... eyKdS10.99

What are you saying is the excuse, and how do you think these two things are related?

[Ibrahim]

This film is a red herring. BBC MidEast correspondent Frank Gardiner was told by Arab officials that the attack was planned well in advance, likely taking longer to orchestrate than the film has even been released. Obviously an attack by a "professional" terrorist group, not something that was whipped together because of a random movie.

...but now Gardiner is saying that those sources say it might be AQ retaliation for the US assassination of the AQAP #2 al_Shihri. Meanwhile Jeremy Scahill is saying that his Yemeni sources are saying the al-Shihiri strike missed and he's still alive.

[Marcus]

What are you saying is the excuse, and how do you think these two things are related?

Religion?

[Ibrahim]

What are you saying is the excuse, and how do you think these two things are related?

Religion?

It's not clear what you mean. I'm saying that the movie isn't the reason for the Libya attack. You are saying that this is connected to burning a US flag on 9/11 how?

[Marcus]

What are you saying is the excuse, and how do you think these two things are related?

Religion?

It's not clear what you mean. I'm saying that the movie isn't the reason for the Libya attack. You are saying that this is connected to burning a US flag on 9/11 how?

You asked how I thought the two were related. I replied.

You'll have to take if from there, and make of it what you will.

[Ibrahim]

What are you saying is the excuse, and how do you think these two things are related?

Religion?

It's not clear what you mean. I'm saying that the movie isn't the reason for the Libya attack. You are saying that this is connected to burning a US flag on 9/11 how?

You asked how I thought the two were related. I replied.

You'll have to take if from there, and make of it what you will.

Why are you unwilling to clearly and honestly state your positions?

[Marcus]

Why are you unwilling to clearly and honestly state your positions?

Incorrect. I am not, and I just did . . state my opinion, that is. I am not, however, willing to let you dictate the conversation in terms of your questions.

You asked, I answered. You'll have to take it from there on your own.

[Ibrahim]

Why are you unwilling to clearly and honestly state your positions?

Incorrect. I am not, and I just did . . state my opinion, that is.

No, you made a few brief responses that are meaningless on their own.

You asked, I answered.

No, you ducked the question.

You'll have to take it from there on your own.

There is nothing to "take." You are unwilling to articulate your position, all I can do is draw my conclusions as to why you are deliberately vague and reluctant.

[Marcus]

No, you . . .
No, you . . .
. . You are unwilling . . .

What can I say? The above illustrates exactly why, in my mind, it is a fool's errand to engage you on any point with which you disagree. Please feel free to draw whatever conclusions you wish about whatever where I'm concerned.

[Ibrahim]

No, you . . .
No, you . . .
. . You are unwilling . . .

Hey, remember when you called me a "jihadist" because I pointed out you edit people's quotes like this? It was yesterday.